[DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for suggestions
Bill Moore
bill at incendium.com
Mon Feb 23 10:02:00 EST 2015
Here we go .Dynoplus.
Cheers,
Bill Moore
Incendium Supply
Calgary
<div>-------- Original message --------</div><div>From: Dave Londry <davel at emspace.com> </div><div>Date:2015-02-22 10:08 PM (GMT-07:00) </div><div>To: detomaso at poca.com </div><div>Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for suggestions </div><div>
</div>Now that's an interesting question Ken.
My first reaction was "I could design a better ignition than that".
And that's clearly BS or a bunch of people would have, and the NASCAR
guys certainly have the $$ to do so.
Unless it's a sponsorship issue??
dave
On 22/02/2015 3:48 PM, Ken Green via DeTomaso wrote:
> Has anyone compared the failure rate on MSD ignitions to the location?
> Maybe in a hot Pantera engine compartment, the life is reduced. A lot
> of professional racers use (or at least used to use in the
> past) redundant MSD ignition systems that let them switch at any
> moment. I assume if there was something as good or better, they would
> use it.
> Ken
> __________________________________________________________________
>
> From: Pantdino via DeTomaso <detomaso at poca.com>
> To: charlesmccall at gmail.com; terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov;
> andymay24 at gmail.com; detomaso at poca.com; mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
> Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2015 1:42 PM
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for suggestions
> There are tens or hundreds of millions of cars running around with
> electronic ignition systems with a failure rate of essentially zero.
> If the rate for MSDs is even 1% per year it is probably 100- 1000
> times
> higher than the other systems.
> Why would anyone use one? Doesn't it revert to single spark mode at
> like 4K anyway? What is the point?'
> Jim Oddie
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Charles McCall <[1]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
> To: 'Himes, Terry (397C)' (397C)' <[2]terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov>;
> 'Andy
> May' <[3]andymay24 at gmail.com>; detomaso <[4]detomaso at poca.com>;
> 'Mikael'
> <[5]mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk>
> Sent: Sun, Feb 22, 2015 12:56 pm
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for suggestions
> Terry -
> I had a similar discussion off-line with a forum member when I
> mentioned that I'd had 2 MSD boxes go bad in the 15 years I've been
> running them. He mentioned that there were numerous cases of MSD
> boxes
> failing, and I've heard them as well.
> What I don't have are facts or data with respect to failure rates. Do
> we hear about MSD boxes failing because they are 4 times as popular
> as
> the nearest competitor and that's why we hear about them? If we only
> base our opinions on "background noise" or reported issues on a
> forum,
> then Panteras are not terribly reliable, so we need to look for data.
> Does anyone know if there are any objective studies regarding failure
> rate per year, or miles, or something?
> The previous box failed (I believe) because someone welded on the car
> without disconnecting the unit, something we are warned not to do.
> This
> box I had no explanation. Happy to change units if there are
> objective
> facts that demonstrate that someone else has a better product. Any
> thoughts?
> From: Himes, Terry (397C) [[1]mailto:[6]terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov]
> Sent: domingo, 22 de febrero de 2015 21:35
> To: Charles McCall; 'Andy May'; [2][7]detomaso at poca.com; Mikael
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for suggestions
> Exactly why I don't run MSD. I have heard many many stories just
> like
> this.
> (only my personal preference. no flames)
> Thanks Charles for sharing.
> "Sometimes I think the surest signs that intelligent life
> exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried
> to contact us!"
> Terry W. Himes [cid:[3][8]image001.png at 01D04EE9.ADCE0150]
> JPL Jet Propulsion Laboratory
> InSight Sequence Team Lead
> Rosetta/MEX Sequence Team Lead
> Phone: (818) 393-6261
> Cell: (818) 653-8213
> Fax: (818) 393-3147
> [1][4][9]thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
> d--od-,
> From: Charles McCall <[2][5][10]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
> Date: Sunday, February 22, 2015 6:38 AM
> To: 'Andy May' <[3][6][11]andymay24 at gmail.com>,
> "[4][7][12]detomaso at poca.com"
> <[5][8][13]detomaso at poca.com>, Mikael
> <[6][9][14]mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for suggestions
> Hi all
> Last fall, I commented that my engine wasn't running well. Symptoms
> may
> be found in the e-mail below, and consensus was that they sounded
> carb
> related, or perhaps timing related, and a number of people offered
> suggestions. But the symptoms were sort of strange and didn't seem to
> perfectly fit any of the theories as to the problem.
> On a whim, over the winter I changed the MSD 6-AL electronic
> ignition,
> since I had a spare and since the last time it failed, it gave some
> really weird symptoms; erratic and sporadic problems. I sent the box
> to
> MSD over Christmas for analysis and they confirmed that it failed
> their
> test and had some issues. OK, sounds promising but was that the cause
> of my problems?
> It's been a harsh and snowy winter, but it has rained all week, which
> cleaned most of the salt from the roads. So I took the car out today.
> I'll feel better after a longer trip, but the first impression is
> very
> positive. The hesitation and stumbling is gone, no starting problems,
> and the car ran very very well. I'm cautiously saying that the
> problem
> has been fixed.
> I wanted to leave for posterity the fact that when the MSD box fails,
> it isn't always catastrophic. It would actually almost be preferable
> if
> it would, since I have a spare it and it would make the problem a
> little more obvious. When they start to fail they get flaky -
> symptoms
> that come and go. Both times they have failed I have started by
> inspecting from top to bottom my carb, since the symptoms pointed in
> that direction. Have an engine problem that you can't eliminate? Try
> looking at your electronic ignition if you have it - it can cause all
> kinds of weird running issues.
> Thanks to all who answered
> Anyway, my engine is not happy. This morning in the hotel parking
> lot I
> really thought that we'd have to skip today's event because it
> wouldn't
> start and didn't sound like it was even thinking about starting.
> Took
> probably 5 minutes of crank-wait-crank-wait before it fired.
> Yesterday
> at the gas station it took 2-3 minutes to start, something that
> has
> never, ever happened before. It is really hard to describe the
> problem
> so much of it is "feel", but I'll do my best.
> A few weeks ago I noticed that the engine would tend to stumble
> if I
> would floor the throttle, then clear its throat and pull. For
> example,
> I like to heel-and-toe, just because, and when blipping the
> throttle
> it
> would stumble instead of rev. The engine also felt a little
> rougher,
> as
> though it vibrated more than I remembered it. I don't remember if
> this
> was before or after I did a short tune-up, by adjusting the valve
> lash
> (I have mechanical lifters), and cleaning the K&N air filter by
> applying K&N filter oil, etc. or if it is irrelevant. So I was
> messing
> around in the engine bay recently...
> This weekend the engine felt considerably worse. It felt like it
> would
> stumble under partial throttle as well. It would stumble a little
> bit
> under trailing throttle going downhill as well, so I don't think
> it
> is
> a clogged fuel filter.
> Oil temp is perfect. Oil pressure is perfect. Water temp is
> perfect.
> The engine idles perfectly. But if you floor the gas from idle,
> it'll
> stall. The engine doesn't feel crisp, it feels bloated and soft,
> if
> that makes sense. It feels rough, and it feels like it
> occasionally
> stumbles under constant throttle at highway speed. It pulls hard
> when
> accelerating, but I don't think as hard as it used to, or as high
> (I
> have a 6500 rpm limiting chip in the MSD that it used to pull
> very
> easily to).
> Suggestions for where to begin looking? And other info that would
> help
> in troubleshooting?
> !DSPAM:54568258260291209923907!
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> 8. mailto:[38]detomaso at poca.com
> 9. mailto:[39]mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
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> 15. mailto:[45]charlesmccall at gmail.com?
> 16. mailto:[46]andymay24 at gmail.com?
> 17. mailto:[47]detomaso at poca.com?
> 18. mailto:[48]detomaso at poca.com?
> 19. mailto:[49]mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk?
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> 4. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
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> 7. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
> 8. mailto:image001.png at 01D04EE9.ADCE0150
> 9. mailto:thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
> 10. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
> 11. mailto:andymay24 at gmail.com
> 12. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
> 13. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
> 14. mailto:mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
> 15. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> 16. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 17. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> 18. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 19. mailto:thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
> 20. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
> 21. mailto:andymay24 at gmail.com
> 22. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
> 23. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
> 24. mailto:mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
> 25. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> 26. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
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> 29. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> 30. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 31. mailto:terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov
> 32. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
> 33. mailto:image001.png at 01D04EE9.ADCE0150
> 34. mailto:thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
> 35. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
> 36. mailto:andymay24 at gmail.com
> 37. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
> 38. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
> 39. mailto:mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
> 40. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> 41. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 42. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> 43. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 44. mailto:thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
> 45. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
> 46. mailto:andymay24 at gmail.com
> 47. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
> 48. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
> 49. mailto:mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
> 50. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> 51. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
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--
Dave Londry
Embedded Spaces Inc. (ESI)
davel at emspace.com
604 589 9183 phone/fax
6O4 72l 2278 cell
Skype:embeddedspaces
Now that's an interesting question Ken.
My first reaction was "I could design a better ignition than that".
And that's clearly BS or a bunch of people would have, and the NASCAR
guys certainly have the $$ to do so.
Unless it's a sponsorship issue??
dave
On 22/02/2015 3:48 PM, Ken Green via DeTomaso wrote:
Has anyone compared the failure rate on MSD ignitions to the location?
Maybe in a hot Pantera engine compartment, the life is reduced. A lot
of professional racers use (or at least used to use in the
past) redundant MSD ignition systems that let them switch at any
moment. I assume if there was something as good or better, they would
use it.
Ken
__________________________________________________________________
From: Pantdino via DeTomaso [1]<detomaso at poca.com>
To: [2]charlesmccall at gmail.com; [3]terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov;
[4]andymay24 at gmail.com; [5]detomaso at poca.com; [6]mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2015 1:42 PM
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for suggestions
There are tens or hundreds of millions of cars running around with
electronic ignition systems with a failure rate of essentially zero.
If the rate for MSDs is even 1% per year it is probably 100- 1000
times
higher than the other systems.
Why would anyone use one? Doesn't it revert to single spark mode at
like 4K anyway? What is the point?'
Jim Oddie
-----Original Message-----
From: Charles McCall [7]<[1]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
To: 'Himes, Terry (397C)' (397C)' [8]<[2]terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov>;
'Andy
May' [9]<[3]andymay24 at gmail.com>; detomaso [10]<[4]detomaso at poca.com>;
'Mikael'
[11]<[5]mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk>
Sent: Sun, Feb 22, 2015 12:56 pm
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for suggestions
Terry -
I had a similar discussion off-line with a forum member when I
mentioned that I'd had 2 MSD boxes go bad in the 15 years I've been
running them. He mentioned that there were numerous cases of MSD
boxes
failing, and I've heard them as well.
What I don't have are facts or data with respect to failure rates. Do
we hear about MSD boxes failing because they are 4 times as popular
as
the nearest competitor and that's why we hear about them? If we only
base our opinions on "background noise" or reported issues on a
forum,
then Panteras are not terribly reliable, so we need to look for data.
Does anyone know if there are any objective studies regarding failure
rate per year, or miles, or something?
The previous box failed (I believe) because someone welded on the car
without disconnecting the unit, something we are warned not to do.
This
box I had no explanation. Happy to change units if there are
objective
facts that demonstrate that someone else has a better product. Any
thoughts?
From: Himes, Terry (397C) [[1]mailto:[[12]6]terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov]
Sent: domingo, 22 de febrero de 2015 21:35
To: Charles McCall; 'Andy May'; [2][[13]7]detomaso at poca.com; Mikael
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for suggestions
Exactly why I don't run MSD. I have heard many many stories just
like
this.
(only my personal preference. no flames)
Thanks Charles for sharing.
"Sometimes I think the surest signs that intelligent life
exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried
to contact us!"
Terry W. Himes [cid:[3][[14]8]image001.png at 01D04EE9.ADCE0150]
JPL Jet Propulsion Laboratory
InSight Sequence Team Lead
Rosetta/MEX Sequence Team Lead
Phone: (818) 393-6261
Cell: (818) 653-8213
Fax: (818) 393-3147
[1][4][[15]9]thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
d--od-,
From: Charles McCall [16]<[2][5][10]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
Date: Sunday, February 22, 2015 6:38 AM
To: 'Andy May' [17]<[3][6][11]andymay24 at gmail.com>,
[18]"[4][7][12]detomaso at poca.com"
[19]<[5][8][13]detomaso at poca.com>, Mikael
[20]<[6][9][14]mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for suggestions
Hi all
Last fall, I commented that my engine wasn't running well. Symptoms
may
be found in the e-mail below, and consensus was that they sounded
carb
related, or perhaps timing related, and a number of people offered
suggestions. But the symptoms were sort of strange and didn't seem to
perfectly fit any of the theories as to the problem.
On a whim, over the winter I changed the MSD 6-AL electronic
ignition,
since I had a spare and since the last time it failed, it gave some
really weird symptoms; erratic and sporadic problems. I sent the box
to
MSD over Christmas for analysis and they confirmed that it failed
their
test and had some issues. OK, sounds promising but was that the cause
of my problems?
It's been a harsh and snowy winter, but it has rained all week, which
cleaned most of the salt from the roads. So I took the car out today.
I'll feel better after a longer trip, but the first impression is
very
positive. The hesitation and stumbling is gone, no starting problems,
and the car ran very very well. I'm cautiously saying that the
problem
has been fixed.
I wanted to leave for posterity the fact that when the MSD box fails,
it isn't always catastrophic. It would actually almost be preferable
if
it would, since I have a spare it and it would make the problem a
little more obvious. When they start to fail they get flaky -
symptoms
that come and go. Both times they have failed I have started by
inspecting from top to bottom my carb, since the symptoms pointed in
that direction. Have an engine problem that you can't eliminate? Try
looking at your electronic ignition if you have it - it can cause all
kinds of weird running issues.
Thanks to all who answered
Anyway, my engine is not happy. This morning in the hotel parking
lot I
really thought that we'd have to skip today's event because it
wouldn't
start and didn't sound like it was even thinking about starting.
Took
probably 5 minutes of crank-wait-crank-wait before it fired.
Yesterday
at the gas station it took 2-3 minutes to start, something that
has
never, ever happened before. It is really hard to describe the
problem
so much of it is "feel", but I'll do my best.
A few weeks ago I noticed that the engine would tend to stumble
if I
would floor the throttle, then clear its throat and pull. For
example,
I like to heel-and-toe, just because, and when blipping the
throttle
it
would stumble instead of rev. The engine also felt a little
rougher,
as
though it vibrated more than I remembered it. I don't remember if
this
was before or after I did a short tune-up, by adjusting the valve
lash
(I have mechanical lifters), and cleaning the K&N air filter by
applying K&N filter oil, etc. or if it is irrelevant. So I was
messing
around in the engine bay recently...
This weekend the engine felt considerably worse. It felt like it
would
stumble under partial throttle as well. It would stumble a little
bit
under trailing throttle going downhill as well, so I don't think
it
is
a clogged fuel filter.
Oil temp is perfect. Oil pressure is perfect. Water temp is
perfect.
The engine idles perfectly. But if you floor the gas from idle,
it'll
stall. The engine doesn't feel crisp, it feels bloated and soft,
if
that makes sense. It feels rough, and it feels like it
occasionally
stumbles under constant throttle at highway speed. It pulls hard
when
accelerating, but I don't think as hard as it used to, or as high
(I
have a 6500 rpm limiting chip in the MSD that it used to pull
very
easily to).
Suggestions for where to begin looking? And other info that would
help
in troubleshooting?
!DSPAM:54568258260291209923907!
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References
1. [14]mailto:[[25]19]thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
2. [15]mailto:[[26]20]charlesmccall at gmail.com
3. [16]mailto:[[27]21]andymay24 at gmail.com
4. [17]mailto:[[28]22]detomaso at poca.com
5. [18]mailto:[[29]23]detomaso at poca.com
6. [19]mailto:[[30]24]mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
7. [20]mailto:[[31]25]DeTomaso at poca.com
8. [21][26][32]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
9. [22]mailto:[[33]27]DeTomaso at poca.com
10. [23][28][34]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
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References
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2. mailto:[[38]32]detomaso at poca.com
3. mailto:[[39]33]image001.png at 01D04EE9.ADCE0150
4. mailto:[[40]34]thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
5. mailto:[[41]35]charlesmccall at gmail.com
6. mailto:[[42]36]andymay24 at gmail.com
7. mailto:[[43]37]detomaso at poca.com
8. mailto:[[44]38]detomaso at poca.com
9. mailto:[[45]39]mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
10. mailto:[[46]40]DeTomaso at poca.com
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4. [67]mailto:detomaso at poca.com
5. [68]mailto:mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
6. [69]mailto:terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov
7. [70]mailto:detomaso at poca.com
8. [71]mailto:image001.png at 01D04EE9.ADCE0150
9. [72]mailto:thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
10. [73]mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
11. [74]mailto:andymay24 at gmail.com
12. [75]mailto:detomaso at poca.com
13. [76]mailto:detomaso at poca.com
14. [77]mailto:mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
15. [78]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
16. [79]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
17. [80]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
18. [81]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
19. [82]mailto:thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
20. [83]mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
21. [84]mailto:andymay24 at gmail.com
22. [85]mailto:detomaso at poca.com
23. [86]mailto:detomaso at poca.com
24. [87]mailto:mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
25. [88]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
26. [89]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
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32. [95]mailto:detomaso at poca.com
33. [96]mailto:image001.png at 01D04EE9.ADCE0150
34. [97]mailto:thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
35. [98]mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
36. [99]mailto:andymay24 at gmail.com
37. [100]mailto:detomaso at poca.com
38. [101]mailto:detomaso at poca.com
39. [102]mailto:mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
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47. [110]mailto:detomaso at poca.com
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4. mailto:andymay24 at gmail.com
5. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
6. mailto:mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
7. mailto:[1]charlesmccall at gmail.com
8. mailto:[2]terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov
9. mailto:[3]andymay24 at gmail.com
10. mailto:[4]detomaso at poca.com
11. mailto:[5]mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
12. mailto:6]terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov
13. mailto:7]detomaso at poca.com
14. mailto:8]image001.png at 01D04EE9.ADCE0150
15. mailto:9]thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
16. mailto:[2][5][10]charlesmccall at gmail.com
17. mailto:[3][6][11]andymay24 at gmail.com
18. mailto:[4][7][12]detomaso at poca.com
19. mailto:[5][8][13]detomaso at poca.com
20. mailto:[6][9][14]mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
21. mailto:15]DeTomaso at poca.com
22. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
23. mailto:17]DeTomaso at poca.com
24. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
25. mailto:19]thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
26. mailto:20]charlesmccall at gmail.com
27. mailto:21]andymay24 at gmail.com
28. mailto:22]detomaso at poca.com
29. mailto:23]detomaso at poca.com
30. mailto:24]mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
31. mailto:25]DeTomaso at poca.com
32. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
33. mailto:27]DeTomaso at poca.com
34. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
35. mailto:29]DeTomaso at poca.com
36. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
37. mailto:31]terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov
38. mailto:32]detomaso at poca.com
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40. mailto:34]thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
41. mailto:35]charlesmccall at gmail.com
42. mailto:36]andymay24 at gmail.com
43. mailto:37]detomaso at poca.com
44. mailto:38]detomaso at poca.com
45. mailto:39]mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
46. mailto:40]DeTomaso at poca.com
47. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
48. mailto:42]DeTomaso at poca.com
49. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
50. mailto:44]thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
51. mailto:45]charlesmccall at gmail.com
52. mailto:46]andymay24 at gmail.com
53. mailto:47]detomaso at poca.com
54. mailto:48]detomaso at poca.com
55. mailto:49]mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
56. mailto:50]DeTomaso at poca.com
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60. mailto:54]DeTomaso at poca.com
61. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
62. mailto:56]DeTomaso at poca.com
63. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
64. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
65. mailto:terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov
66. mailto:andymay24 at gmail.com
67. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
68. mailto:mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
69. mailto:terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov
70. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
71. mailto:image001.png at 01D04EE9.ADCE0150
72. mailto:thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
73. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
74. mailto:andymay24 at gmail.com
75. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
76. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
77. mailto:mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
78. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
79. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
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82. mailto:thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
83. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
84. mailto:andymay24 at gmail.com
85. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
86. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
87. mailto:mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
88. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
89. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
90. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
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100. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
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102. mailto:mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
103. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
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-------------- next part --------------
Here we go .Dynoplus.
Cheers,
Bill Moore
Incendium Supply
Calgary
-------- Original message --------
From: Dave Londry
Date:2015-02-22 10:08 PM (GMT-07:00)
To: detomaso at poca.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for suggestions
Now that's an interesting question Ken.
My first reaction was "I could design a better ignition than that".
And that's clearly BS or a bunch of people would have, and the NASCAR
guys certainly have the $$ to do so.
Unless it's a sponsorship issue??
dave
On 22/02/2015 3:48 PM, Ken Green via DeTomaso wrote:
> Has anyone compared the failure rate on MSD ignitions to the
location?
> Maybe in a hot Pantera engine compartment, the life is reduced.
A lot
> of professional racers use (or at least used to use in the
> past) redundant MSD ignition systems that let them switch at any
> moment. I assume if there was something as good or better, they
would
> use it.
> Ken
>
__________________________________________________________________
>
> From: Pantdino via DeTomaso <detomaso at poca.com>
> To: charlesmccall at gmail.com; terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov;
> andymay24 at gmail.com; detomaso at poca.com; mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
> Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2015 1:42 PM
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for suggestions
> There are tens or hundreds of millions of cars running around
with
> electronic ignition systems with a failure rate of essentially
zero.
> If the rate for MSDs is even 1% per year it is probably 100-
1000
> times
> higher than the other systems.
> Why would anyone use one? Doesn't it revert to single spark
mode at
> like 4K anyway? What is the point?'
> Jim Oddie
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Charles McCall <[1]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
> To: 'Himes, Terry (397C)' (397C)'
<[2]terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov>;
> 'Andy
> May' <[3]andymay24 at gmail.com>; detomaso <[4]detomaso at poca.com>;
> 'Mikael'
> <[5]mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk>
> Sent: Sun, Feb 22, 2015 12:56 pm
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for suggestions
> Terry -
> I had a similar discussion off-line with a forum member when I
> mentioned that I'd had 2 MSD boxes go bad in the 15 years I've
been
> running them. He mentioned that there were numerous cases of
MSD
> boxes
> failing, and I've heard them as well.
> What I don't have are facts or data with respect to failure
rates. Do
> we hear about MSD boxes failing because they are 4 times as
popular
> as
> the nearest competitor and that's why we hear about them? If we
only
> base our opinions on "background noise" or reported issues on a
> forum,
> then Panteras are not terribly reliable, so we need to look for
data.
> Does anyone know if there are any objective studies regarding
failure
> rate per year, or miles, or something?
> The previous box failed (I believe) because someone welded on
the car
> without disconnecting the unit, something we are warned not to
do.
> This
> box I had no explanation. Happy to change units if there are
> objective
> facts that demonstrate that someone else has a better product.
Any
> thoughts?
> From: Himes, Terry (397C)
[[1]mailto:[6]terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov]
> Sent: domingo, 22 de febrero de 2015 21:35
> To: Charles McCall; 'Andy May'; [2][7]detomaso at poca.com; Mikael
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for suggestions
> Exactly why I don't run MSD. I have heard many many stories
just
> like
> this.
> (only my personal preference. no flames)
> Thanks Charles for sharing.
> "Sometimes I think the surest signs that intelligent life
> exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried
> to contact us!"
> Terry W. Himes [cid:[3][8]image001.png at 01D04EE9.ADCE0150]
> JPL Jet Propulsion Laboratory
> InSight Sequence Team Lead
> Rosetta/MEX Sequence Team Lead
> Phone: (818) 393-6261
> Cell: (818) 653-8213
> Fax: (818) 393-3147
> [1][4][9]thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
> d--od-,
> From: Charles McCall <[2][5][10]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
> Date: Sunday, February 22, 2015 6:38 AM
> To: 'Andy May' <[3][6][11]andymay24 at gmail.com>,
> "[4][7][12]detomaso at poca.com"
> <[5][8][13]detomaso at poca.com>, Mikael
> <[6][9][14]mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for suggestions
> Hi all
> Last fall, I commented that my engine wasn't running well.
Symptoms
> may
> be found in the e-mail below, and consensus was that they
sounded
> carb
> related, or perhaps timing related, and a number of people
offered
> suggestions. But the symptoms were sort of strange and didn't
seem to
> perfectly fit any of the theories as to the problem.
> On a whim, over the winter I changed the MSD 6-AL electronic
> ignition,
> since I had a spare and since the last time it failed, it gave
some
> really weird symptoms; erratic and sporadic problems. I sent
the box
> to
> MSD over Christmas for analysis and they confirmed that it
failed
> their
> test and had some issues. OK, sounds promising but was that the
cause
> of my problems?
> It's been a harsh and snowy winter, but it has rained all week,
which
> cleaned most of the salt from the roads. So I took the car out
today.
> I'll feel better after a longer trip, but the first impression
is
> very
> positive. The hesitation and stumbling is gone, no starting
problems,
> and the car ran very very well. I'm cautiously saying that the
> problem
> has been fixed.
> I wanted to leave for posterity the fact that when the MSD box
fails,
> it isn't always catastrophic. It would actually almost be
preferable
> if
> it would, since I have a spare it and it would make the problem
a
> little more obvious. When they start to fail they get flaky -
> symptoms
> that come and go. Both times they have failed I have started by
> inspecting from top to bottom my carb, since the symptoms
pointed in
> that direction. Have an engine problem that you can't
eliminate? Try
> looking at your electronic ignition if you have it - it can
cause all
> kinds of weird running issues.
> Thanks to all who answered
> Anyway, my engine is not happy. This morning in the hotel
parking
> lot I
> really thought that we'd have to skip today's event because
it
> wouldn't
> start and didn't sound like it was even thinking about
starting.
> Took
> probably 5 minutes of crank-wait-crank-wait before it
fired.
> Yesterday
> at the gas station it took 2-3 minutes to start, something
that
> has
> never, ever happened before. It is really hard to describe
the
> problem
> so much of it is "feel", but I'll do my best.
> A few weeks ago I noticed that the engine would tend to
stumble
> if I
> would floor the throttle, then clear its throat and pull.
For
> example,
> I like to heel-and-toe, just because, and when blipping the
> throttle
> it
> would stumble instead of rev. The engine also felt a little
> rougher,
> as
> though it vibrated more than I remembered it. I don't
remember if
> this
> was before or after I did a short tune-up, by adjusting the
valve
> lash
> (I have mechanical lifters), and cleaning the K&N air
filter by
> applying K&N filter oil, etc. or if it is irrelevant. So I
was
> messing
> around in the engine bay recently...
> This weekend the engine felt considerably worse. It felt
like it
> would
> stumble under partial throttle as well. It would stumble a
little
> bit
> under trailing throttle going downhill as well, so I don't
think
> it
> is
> a clogged fuel filter.
> Oil temp is perfect. Oil pressure is perfect. Water temp is
> perfect.
> The engine idles perfectly. But if you floor the gas from
idle,
> it'll
> stall. The engine doesn't feel crisp, it feels bloated and
soft,
> if
> that makes sense. It feels rough, and it feels like it
> occasionally
> stumbles under constant throttle at highway speed. It pulls
hard
> when
> accelerating, but I don't think as hard as it used to, or
as high
> (I
> have a 6500 rpm limiting chip in the MSD that it used to
pull
> very
> easily to).
> Suggestions for where to begin looking? And other info that
would
> help
> in troubleshooting?
> !DSPAM:54568258260291209923907!
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> 4. [17]mailto:[22]detomaso at poca.com
> 5. [18]mailto:[23]detomaso at poca.com
> 6. [19]mailto:[24]mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
> 7. [20]mailto:[25]DeTomaso at poca.com
> 8. [21][26]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 9. [22]mailto:[27]DeTomaso at poca.com
> 10. [23][28]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
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> 5. mailto:[35]charlesmccall at gmail.com
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> 7. mailto:[37]detomaso at poca.com
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> 9. mailto:[39]mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
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> 11. [41]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
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Now that's an interesting question Ken.
My first reaction was "I could design a better ignition than that".
And that's clearly BS or a bunch of people would have, and the
NASCAR
guys certainly have the $$ to do so.
Unless it's a sponsorship issue??
dave
On 22/02/2015 3:48 PM, Ken Green via DeTomaso wrote:
Has anyone compared the failure rate on MSD ignitions to the
location?
Maybe in a hot Pantera engine compartment, the life is reduced. A
lot
of professional racers use (or at least used to use in the
past) redundant MSD ignition systems that let them switch at any
moment. I assume if there was something as good or better, they
would
use it.
Ken
__________________________________________________________________
From: Pantdino via DeTomaso [1]<detomaso at poca.com>
To: [2]charlesmccall at gmail.com; [3]terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov;
[4]andymay24 at gmail.com; [5]detomaso at poca.com;
[6]mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2015 1:42 PM
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for suggestions
There are tens or hundreds of millions of cars running around with
electronic ignition systems with a failure rate of essentially
zero.
If the rate for MSDs is even 1% per year it is probably 100- 1000
times
higher than the other systems.
Why would anyone use one? Doesn't it revert to single spark mode
at
like 4K anyway? What is the point?'
Jim Oddie
-----Original Message-----
From: Charles McCall [7]<[1]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
To: 'Himes, Terry (397C)' (397C)'
[8]<[2]terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov>;
'Andy
May' [9]<[3]andymay24 at gmail.com>; detomaso
[10]<[4]detomaso at poca.com>;
'Mikael'
[11]<[5]mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk>
Sent: Sun, Feb 22, 2015 12:56 pm
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for suggestions
Terry -
I had a similar discussion off-line with a forum member when I
mentioned that I'd had 2 MSD boxes go bad in the 15 years I've
been
running them. He mentioned that there were numerous cases of MSD
boxes
failing, and I've heard them as well.
What I don't have are facts or data with respect to failure rates.
Do
we hear about MSD boxes failing because they are 4 times as
popular
as
the nearest competitor and that's why we hear about them? If we
only
base our opinions on "background noise" or reported issues on a
forum,
then Panteras are not terribly reliable, so we need to look for
data.
Does anyone know if there are any objective studies regarding
failure
rate per year, or miles, or something?
The previous box failed (I believe) because someone welded on the
car
without disconnecting the unit, something we are warned not to do.
This
box I had no explanation. Happy to change units if there are
objective
facts that demonstrate that someone else has a better product. Any
thoughts?
From: Himes, Terry (397C)
[[1]mailto:[[12]6]terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov]
Sent: domingo, 22 de febrero de 2015 21:35
To: Charles McCall; 'Andy May'; [2][[13]7]detomaso at poca.com;
Mikael
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for suggestions
Exactly why I don't run MSD. I have heard many many stories just
like
this.
(only my personal preference. no flames)
Thanks Charles for sharing.
"Sometimes I think the surest signs that intelligent life
exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried
to contact us!"
Terry W. Himes [cid:[3][[14]8]image001.png at 01D04EE9.ADCE0150]
JPL Jet Propulsion Laboratory
InSight Sequence Team Lead
Rosetta/MEX Sequence Team Lead
Phone: (818) 393-6261
Cell: (818) 653-8213
Fax: (818) 393-3147
[1][4][[15]9]thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
d--od-,
From: Charles McCall [16]<[2][5][10]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
Date: Sunday, February 22, 2015 6:38 AM
To: 'Andy May' [17]<[3][6][11]andymay24 at gmail.com>,
[18]"[4][7][12]detomaso at poca.com"
[19]<[5][8][13]detomaso at poca.com>, Mikael
[20]<[6][9][14]mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for suggestions
Hi all
Last fall, I commented that my engine wasn't running well.
Symptoms
may
be found in the e-mail below, and consensus was that they sounded
carb
related, or perhaps timing related, and a number of people offered
suggestions. But the symptoms were sort of strange and didn't seem
to
perfectly fit any of the theories as to the problem.
On a whim, over the winter I changed the MSD 6-AL electronic
ignition,
since I had a spare and since the last time it failed, it gave
some
really weird symptoms; erratic and sporadic problems. I sent the
box
to
MSD over Christmas for analysis and they confirmed that it failed
their
test and had some issues. OK, sounds promising but was that the
cause
of my problems?
It's been a harsh and snowy winter, but it has rained all week,
which
cleaned most of the salt from the roads. So I took the car out
today.
I'll feel better after a longer trip, but the first impression is
very
positive. The hesitation and stumbling is gone, no starting
problems,
and the car ran very very well. I'm cautiously saying that the
problem
has been fixed.
I wanted to leave for posterity the fact that when the MSD box
fails,
it isn't always catastrophic. It would actually almost be
preferable
if
it would, since I have a spare it and it would make the problem a
little more obvious. When they start to fail they get flaky -
symptoms
that come and go. Both times they have failed I have started by
inspecting from top to bottom my carb, since the symptoms pointed
in
that direction. Have an engine problem that you can't eliminate?
Try
looking at your electronic ignition if you have it - it can cause
all
kinds of weird running issues.
Thanks to all who answered
Anyway, my engine is not happy. This morning in the hotel
parking
lot I
really thought that we'd have to skip today's event because it
wouldn't
start and didn't sound like it was even thinking about
starting.
Took
probably 5 minutes of crank-wait-crank-wait before it fired.
Yesterday
at the gas station it took 2-3 minutes to start, something
that
has
never, ever happened before. It is really hard to describe the
problem
so much of it is "feel", but I'll do my best.
A few weeks ago I noticed that the engine would tend to
stumble
if I
would floor the throttle, then clear its throat and pull. For
example,
I like to heel-and-toe, just because, and when blipping the
throttle
it
would stumble instead of rev. The engine also felt a little
rougher,
as
though it vibrated more than I remembered it. I don't remember
if
this
was before or after I did a short tune-up, by adjusting the
valve
lash
(I have mechanical lifters), and cleaning the K&N air filter
by
applying K&N filter oil, etc. or if it is irrelevant. So I was
messing
around in the engine bay recently...
This weekend the engine felt considerably worse. It felt like
it
would
stumble under partial throttle as well. It would stumble a
little
bit
under trailing throttle going downhill as well, so I don't
think
it
is
a clogged fuel filter.
Oil temp is perfect. Oil pressure is perfect. Water temp is
perfect.
The engine idles perfectly. But if you floor the gas from
idle,
it'll
stall. The engine doesn't feel crisp, it feels bloated and
soft,
if
that makes sense. It feels rough, and it feels like it
occasionally
stumbles under constant throttle at highway speed. It pulls
hard
when
accelerating, but I don't think as hard as it used to, or as
high
(I
have a 6500 rpm limiting chip in the MSD that it used to pull
very
easily to).
Suggestions for where to begin looking? And other info that
would
help
in troubleshooting?
!DSPAM:54568258260291209923907!
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