[DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for suggestions
Charles McCall
charlesmccall at gmail.com
Mon Feb 23 02:28:43 EST 2015
I haven't seen a study relating ignition box location to failure rate. I
haven't seen a study relating to failure rate period! But my unit is
installed inside the cabin, protected from heat and vibration.
On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 12:48 AM, Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Has anyone compared the failure rate on MSD ignitions to the location?
> Maybe in a hot Pantera engine compartment, the life is reduced. A lot of
> professional racers use (or at least used to use in the past) redundant MSD
> ignition systems that let them switch at any moment. I assume if there was
> something as good or better, they would use it.
>
> Ken
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Pantdino via DeTomaso <detomaso at poca.com>
> *To:* charlesmccall at gmail.com; terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov;
> andymay24 at gmail.com; detomaso at poca.com; mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
> *Sent:* Sunday, February 22, 2015 1:42 PM
>
> *Subject:* Re: [DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for suggestions
>
> There are tens or hundreds of millions of cars running around with
> electronic ignition systems with a failure rate of essentially zero.
>
>
>
> If the rate for MSDs is even 1% per year it is probably 100- 1000 times
> higher than the other systems.
>
>
>
> Why would anyone use one? Doesn't it revert to single spark mode at
> like 4K anyway? What is the point?'
>
>
>
> Jim Oddie
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Charles McCall <charlesmccall at gmail.com>
> To: 'Himes, Terry (397C)' (397C)' <terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov>; 'Andy
> May' <andymay24 at gmail.com>; detomaso <detomaso at poca.com>; 'Mikael'
> <mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk>
> Sent: Sun, Feb 22, 2015 12:56 pm
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for suggestions
> Terry -
>
> I had a similar discussion off-line with a forum member when I
> mentioned that I'd had 2 MSD boxes go bad in the 15 years I've been
> running them. He mentioned that there were numerous cases of MSD boxes
> failing, and I've heard them as well.
>
>
> What I don't have are facts or data with respect to failure rates. Do
> we hear about MSD boxes failing because they are 4 times as popular as
> the nearest competitor and that's why we hear about them? If we only
> base our opinions on "background noise" or reported issues on a forum,
> then Panteras are not terribly reliable, so we need to look for data.
> Does anyone know if there are any objective studies regarding failure
> rate per year, or miles, or something?
>
>
> The previous box failed (I believe) because someone welded on the car
> without disconnecting the unit, something we are warned not to do. This
> box I had no explanation. Happy to change units if there are objective
> facts that demonstrate that someone else has a better product. Any
> thoughts?
>
>
> From: Himes, Terry (397C) [[1]mailto:terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov]
> Sent: domingo, 22 de febrero de 2015 21:35
> To: Charles McCall; 'Andy May'; [2]detomaso at poca.com; Mikael
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for suggestions
>
>
> Exactly why I don't run MSD. I have heard many many stories just like
> this.
>
> (only my personal preference. no flames)
>
>
> Thanks Charles for sharing.
>
>
>
> "Sometimes I think the surest signs that intelligent life
>
> exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried
>
> to contact us!"
>
>
> Terry W. Himes [cid:[3]image001.png at 01D04EE9.ADCE0150]
>
> JPL Jet Propulsion Laboratory
>
> InSight Sequence Team Lead
>
> Rosetta/MEX Sequence Team Lead
>
> Phone: (818) 393-6261
>
> Cell: (818) 653-8213
>
> Fax: (818) 393-3147
>
> [1][4]thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
>
> 🇺🇸
>
>
> From: Charles McCall <[2][5]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
> Date: Sunday, February 22, 2015 6:38 AM
> To: 'Andy May' <[3][6]andymay24 at gmail.com>, "[4][7]detomaso at poca.com"
> <[5][8]detomaso at poca.com>, Mikael <[6][9]mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk>
>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for suggestions
>
>
> Hi all
>
>
>
> Last fall, I commented that my engine wasn't running well. Symptoms may
> be found in the e-mail below, and consensus was that they sounded carb
> related, or perhaps timing related, and a number of people offered
> suggestions. But the symptoms were sort of strange and didn't seem to
> perfectly fit any of the theories as to the problem.
>
>
>
> On a whim, over the winter I changed the MSD 6-AL electronic ignition,
> since I had a spare and since the last time it failed, it gave some
> really weird symptoms; erratic and sporadic problems. I sent the box to
> MSD over Christmas for analysis and they confirmed that it failed their
> test and had some issues. OK, sounds promising but was that the cause
> of my problems?
>
>
>
> It's been a harsh and snowy winter, but it has rained all week, which
> cleaned most of the salt from the roads. So I took the car out today.
> I'll feel better after a longer trip, but the first impression is very
> positive. The hesitation and stumbling is gone, no starting problems,
> and the car ran very very well. I'm cautiously saying that the problem
> has been fixed.
>
>
>
> I wanted to leave for posterity the fact that when the MSD box fails,
> it isn't always catastrophic. It would actually almost be preferable if
> it would, since I have a spare it and it would make the problem a
> little more obvious. When they start to fail they get flaky - symptoms
> that come and go. Both times they have failed I have started by
> inspecting from top to bottom my carb, since the symptoms pointed in
> that direction. Have an engine problem that you can't eliminate? Try
> looking at your electronic ignition if you have it - it can cause all
> kinds of weird running issues.
>
>
>
> Thanks to all who answered
>
>
>
>
>
> Anyway, my engine is not happy. This morning in the hotel parking
> lot I
>
> really thought that we'd have to skip today's event because it
> wouldn't
>
> start and didn't sound like it was even thinking about starting.
> Took
>
> probably 5 minutes of crank-wait-crank-wait before it fired.
> Yesterday
>
> at the gas station it took 2-3 minutes to start, something that has
>
> never, ever happened before. It is really hard to describe the
> problem
>
> so much of it is "feel", but I'll do my best.
>
>
>
> A few weeks ago I noticed that the engine would tend to stumble if I
>
> would floor the throttle, then clear its throat and pull. For
> example,
>
> I like to heel-and-toe, just because, and when blipping the throttle
> it
>
> would stumble instead of rev. The engine also felt a little rougher,
> as
>
> though it vibrated more than I remembered it. I don't remember if
> this
>
> was before or after I did a short tune-up, by adjusting the valve
> lash
>
> (I have mechanical lifters), and cleaning the K&N air filter by
>
> applying K&N filter oil, etc. or if it is irrelevant. So I was
> messing
>
> around in the engine bay recently...
>
>
>
> This weekend the engine felt considerably worse. It felt like it
> would
>
> stumble under partial throttle as well. It would stumble a little
> bit
>
> under trailing throttle going downhill as well, so I don't think it
> is
>
> a clogged fuel filter.
>
>
>
> Oil temp is perfect. Oil pressure is perfect. Water temp is perfect.
>
> The engine idles perfectly. But if you floor the gas from idle,
> it'll
>
> stall. The engine doesn't feel crisp, it feels bloated and soft, if
>
> that makes sense. It feels rough, and it feels like it occasionally
>
> stumbles under constant throttle at highway speed. It pulls hard
> when
>
> accelerating, but I don't think as hard as it used to, or as high (I
>
> have a 6500 rpm limiting chip in the MSD that it used to pull very
>
> easily to).
>
>
>
> Suggestions for where to begin looking? And other info that would
> help
>
> in troubleshooting?
>
>
>
> !DSPAM:54568258260291209923907!
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>
>
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>
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>
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>
>
>
> !DSPAM:54568258260291209923907!
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>
>
> DeTomaso mailing list
>
> [9][12]DeTomaso at poca.com
>
> [10][13]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>
> References
>
> 1. [14]mailto:thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
> 2. [15]mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
> 3. [16]mailto:andymay24 at gmail.com
> 4. [17]mailto:detomaso at poca.com
> 5. [18]mailto:detomaso at poca.com
> 6. [19]mailto:mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
> 7. [20]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> 8. [21]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 9. [22]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> 10. [23]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
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> [25]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use
> the
> links above.
>
> References
>
> 1. mailto:terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov?
> 2. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
> 3. mailto:image001.png at 01D04EE9.ADCE0150
> 4. mailto:thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
> 5. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
> 6. mailto:andymay24 at gmail.com
> 7. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
> 8. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
> 9. mailto:mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
> 10. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> 11. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 12. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> 13. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 14. mailto:thimes at jpl.nasa.gov?
> 15. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com?
> 16. mailto:andymay24 at gmail.com?
> 17. mailto:detomaso at poca.com?
> 18. mailto:detomaso at poca.com?
> 19. mailto:mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk?
> 20. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com?
> 21. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 22. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com?
> 23. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 24. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>
>
>
> 25. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at poca.com
> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use
> the links above.
>
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
I haven't seen a study relating ignition box location to failure rate.
I haven't seen a study relating to failure rate period! But my unit is
installed inside the cabin, protected from heat and vibration.
On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 12:48 AM, Ken Green <[1]kenn_green at yahoo.com>
wrote:
Has anyone compared theA failure rate on MSD ignitions to the
location?A Maybe in a hot Pantera engine compartment, the life is
reduced.A A lot of professional racers use (orA at least used to use
in the past)A redundant MSD ignition systems that let them switch at
any moment.A A I assume if thereA was something as good or better, they
would use it.
Ken
A
__________________________________________________________________
From: Pantdino via DeTomaso <[2]detomaso at poca.com>
To: [3]charlesmccall at gmail.com; [4]terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov;
[5]andymay24 at gmail.com; [6]detomaso at poca.com;
[7]mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2015 1:42 PM
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for suggestions
A There are tens or hundreds of millions of cars running around with
A electronic ignition systems with a failure rate of essentially zero.
A If the rate for MSDs is even 1% per year it is probably 100- 1000
times
A higher than the other systems.
A Why would anyone use one?A Doesn't it revert to single spark mode
at
A like 4K anyway?A What is the point?'
A Jim Oddie
A -----Original Message-----
A From: Charles McCall <[8]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
A To: 'Himes, Terry (397C)' (397C)' <[9]terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov>;
'Andy
A May' <[10]andymay24 at gmail.com>; detomaso <[11]detomaso at poca.com>;
'Mikael'
A <[12]mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk>
A Sent: Sun, Feb 22, 2015 12:56 pm
A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for suggestions
A Terry -
A I had a similar discussion off-line with a forum member when I
A mentioned that I'd had 2 MSD boxes go bad in the 15 years I've been
A running them. He mentioned that there were numerous cases of MSD
boxes
A failing, and I've heard them as well.
A What I don't have are facts or data with respect to failure rates.
Do
A we hear about MSD boxes failing because they are 4 times as popular
as
A the nearest competitor and that's why we hear about them? If we only
A base our opinions on "background noise" or reported issues on a
forum,
A then Panteras are not terribly reliable, so we need to look for
data.
A Does anyone know if there are any objective studies regarding
failure
A rate per year, or miles, or something?
A The previous box failed (I believe) because someone welded on the
car
A without disconnecting the unit, something we are warned not to do.
This
A box I had no explanation. Happy to change units if there are
objective
A facts that demonstrate that someone else has a better product. Any
A thoughts?
A From: Himes, Terry (397C) [[1]mailto:[13]terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov]
A Sent: domingo, 22 de febrero de 2015 21:35
A To: Charles McCall; 'Andy May'; [2][14]detomaso at poca.com; Mikael
A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for suggestions
A Exactly why I don't run MSD.A I have heard many many stories just
like
A this.
A (only my personal preference.A no flames)
A Thanks Charles for sharing.
A "Sometimes I think the surest signs that intelligent life
A A exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried
A A to contact us!"
A Terry W. HimesA [cid:[3][15]image001.png at 01D04EE9.ADCE0150]
A JPL Jet Propulsion Laboratory
A InSight Sequence Team Lead
A Rosetta/MEX Sequence Team Lead
A Phone: [16](818) 393-6261
A Cell:A A [17](818) 653-8213
A Fax:A A [18](818) 393-3147
A [1][4][19]thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
A d--od-,
A From: Charles McCall <[2][5][20]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
A Date: Sunday, February 22, 2015 6:38 AM
A To: 'Andy May' <[3][6][21]andymay24 at gmail.com>,
"[4][7][22]detomaso at poca.com"
A <[5][8][23]detomaso at poca.com>, Mikael
<[6][9][24]mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk>
A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for suggestions
A Hi all
A Last fall, I commented that my engine wasn't running well. Symptoms
may
A be found in the e-mail below, and consensus was that they sounded
carb
A related, or perhaps timing related, and a number of people offered
A suggestions. But the symptoms were sort of strange and didn't seem
to
A perfectly fit any of the theories as to the problem.
A On a whim, over the winter I changed the MSD 6-AL electronic
ignition,
A since I had a spare and since the last time it failed, it gave some
A really weird symptoms; erratic and sporadic problems. I sent the box
to
A MSD over Christmas for analysis and they confirmed that it failed
their
A test and had some issues. OK, sounds promising but was that the
cause
A of my problems?
A It's been a harsh and snowy winter, but it has rained all week,
which
A cleaned most of the salt from the roads. So I took the car out
today.
A I'll feel better after a longer trip, but the first impression is
very
A positive. The hesitation and stumbling is gone, no starting
problems,
A and the car ran very very well. I'm cautiously saying that the
problem
A has been fixed.
A I wanted to leave for posterity the fact that when the MSD box
fails,
A it isn't always catastrophic. It would actually almost be preferable
if
A it would, since I have a spare it and it would make the problem a
A little more obvious. When they start to fail they get flaky -
symptoms
A that come and go. Both times they have failed I have started by
A inspecting from top to bottom my carb, since the symptoms pointed in
A that direction. Have an engine problem that you can't eliminate? Try
A looking at your electronic ignition if you have it - it can cause
all
A kinds of weird running issues.
A Thanks to all who answered
A A A Anyway, my engine is not happy. This morning in the hotel
parking
A lot I
A A A really thought that we'd have to skip today's event because it
A wouldn't
A A A start and didn't sound like it was even thinking about
starting.
A Took
A A A probably 5 minutes of crank-wait-crank-wait before it fired.
A Yesterday
A A A at the gas station it took 2-3 minutes to start, something
that has
A A A never, ever happened before. It is really hard to describe the
A problem
A A A so much of it is "feel", but I'll do my best.
A A A A few weeks ago I noticed that the engine would tend to
stumble if I
A A A would floor the throttle, then clear its throat and pull. For
A example,
A A A I like to heel-and-toe, just because, and when blipping the
throttle
A it
A A A would stumble instead of rev. The engine also felt a little
rougher,
A as
A A A though it vibrated more than I remembered it. I don't remember
if
A this
A A A was before or after I did a short tune-up, by adjusting the
valve
A lash
A A A (I have mechanical lifters), and cleaning the K&N air filter
by
A A A applying K&N filter oil, etc. or if it is irrelevant. So I was
A messing
A A A around in the engine bay recently...
A A A This weekend the engine felt considerably worse. It felt like
it
A would
A A A stumble under partial throttle as well. It would stumble a
little
A bit
A A A under trailing throttle going downhill as well, so I don't
think it
A is
A A A a clogged fuel filter.
A A A Oil temp is perfect. Oil pressure is perfect. Water temp is
perfect.
A A A The engine idles perfectly. But if you floor the gas from
idle,
A it'll
A A A stall. The engine doesn't feel crisp, it feels bloated and
soft, if
A A A that makes sense. It feels rough, and it feels like it
occasionally
A A A stumbles under constant throttle at highway speed. It pulls
hard
A when
A A A accelerating, but I don't think as hard as it used to, or as
high (I
A A A have a 6500 rpm limiting chip in the MSD that it used to pull
very
A A A easily to).
A A A Suggestions for where to begin looking? And other info that
would
A help
A A A in troubleshooting?
A !DSPAM:54568258260291209923907!
A _______________________________________________
A Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
A DeTomaso mailing list
A [7][10][25]DeTomaso at poca.com
A [8][11][26]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A !DSPAM:54568258260291209923907!
A _______________________________________________
A Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
A DeTomaso mailing list
A [9][12][27]DeTomaso at poca.com
A [10][13][28]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
References
A 1. [14]mailto:[29]thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
A 2. [15]mailto:[30]charlesmccall at gmail.com
A 3. [16]mailto:[31]andymay24 at gmail.com
A 4. [17]mailto:[32]detomaso at poca.com
A 5. [18]mailto:[33]detomaso at poca.com
A 6. [19]mailto:[34]mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
A 7. [20]mailto:[35]DeTomaso at poca.com
A 8. [21][36]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A 9. [22]mailto:[37]DeTomaso at poca.com
A 10. [23][38]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
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To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
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links above.
References
A 1. mailto:[41]terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov?
A 2. mailto:[42]detomaso at poca.com
A 3. mailto:[43]image001.png at 01D04EE9.ADCE0150
A 4. mailto:[44]thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
A 5. mailto:[45]charlesmccall at gmail.com
A 6. mailto:[46]andymay24 at gmail.com
A 7. mailto:[47]detomaso at poca.com
A 8. mailto:[48]detomaso at poca.com
A 9. mailto:[49]mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
A 10. mailto:[50]DeTomaso at poca.com
A 11. [51]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A 12. mailto:[52]DeTomaso at poca.com
A 13. [53]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A 14. mailto:[54]thimes at jpl.nasa.gov?
A 15. mailto:[55]charlesmccall at gmail.com?
A 16. mailto:[56]andymay24 at gmail.com?
A 17. mailto:[57]detomaso at poca.com?
A 18. mailto:[58]detomaso at poca.com?
A 19. mailto:[59]mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk?
A 20. mailto:[60]DeTomaso at poca.com?
A 21. [61]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A 22. mailto:[62]DeTomaso at poca.com?
A 23. [63]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A 24. mailto:[64]DeTomaso at poca.com
A 25. [65]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
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References
1. mailto:kenn_green at yahoo.com
2. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
3. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
4. mailto:terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov
5. mailto:andymay24 at gmail.com
6. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
7. mailto:mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
8. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
9. mailto:terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov
10. mailto:andymay24 at gmail.com
11. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
12. mailto:mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
13. mailto:terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov
14. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
15. mailto:image001.png at 01D04EE9.ADCE0150
16. tel:%28818%29%20393-6261
17. tel:%28818%29%20653-8213
18. tel:%28818%29%20393-3147
19. mailto:thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
20. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
21. mailto:andymay24 at gmail.com
22. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
23. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
24. mailto:mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
25. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
26. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
27. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
28. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
29. mailto:thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
30. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
31. mailto:andymay24 at gmail.com
32. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
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