[DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for suggestions
Ken Green
kenn_green at yahoo.com
Sun Feb 22 18:48:44 EST 2015
Has anyone compared the failure rate on MSD ignitions to the location? Maybe in a hot Pantera engine compartment, the life is reduced. A lot of professional racers use (or at least used to use in the past) redundant MSD ignition systems that let them switch at any moment. I assume if there was something as good or better, they would use it.
Ken
From: Pantdino via DeTomaso <detomaso at poca.com>
To: charlesmccall at gmail.com; terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov; andymay24 at gmail.com; detomaso at poca.com; mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2015 1:42 PM
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for suggestions
There are tens or hundreds of millions of cars running around with
electronic ignition systems with a failure rate of essentially zero.
If the rate for MSDs is even 1% per year it is probably 100- 1000 times
higher than the other systems.
Why would anyone use one? Doesn't it revert to single spark mode at
like 4K anyway? What is the point?'
Jim Oddie
-----Original Message-----
From: Charles McCall <charlesmccall at gmail.com>
To: 'Himes, Terry (397C)' (397C)' <terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov>; 'Andy
May' <andymay24 at gmail.com>; detomaso <detomaso at poca.com>; 'Mikael'
<mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk>
Sent: Sun, Feb 22, 2015 12:56 pm
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for suggestions
Terry -
I had a similar discussion off-line with a forum member when I
mentioned that I'd had 2 MSD boxes go bad in the 15 years I've been
running them. He mentioned that there were numerous cases of MSD boxes
failing, and I've heard them as well.
What I don't have are facts or data with respect to failure rates. Do
we hear about MSD boxes failing because they are 4 times as popular as
the nearest competitor and that's why we hear about them? If we only
base our opinions on "background noise" or reported issues on a forum,
then Panteras are not terribly reliable, so we need to look for data.
Does anyone know if there are any objective studies regarding failure
rate per year, or miles, or something?
The previous box failed (I believe) because someone welded on the car
without disconnecting the unit, something we are warned not to do. This
box I had no explanation. Happy to change units if there are objective
facts that demonstrate that someone else has a better product. Any
thoughts?
From: Himes, Terry (397C) [[1]mailto:terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov]
Sent: domingo, 22 de febrero de 2015 21:35
To: Charles McCall; 'Andy May'; [2]detomaso at poca.com; Mikael
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for suggestions
Exactly why I don't run MSD. I have heard many many stories just like
this.
(only my personal preference. no flames)
Thanks Charles for sharing.
"Sometimes I think the surest signs that intelligent life
exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried
to contact us!"
Terry W. Himes [cid:[3]image001.png at 01D04EE9.ADCE0150]
JPL Jet Propulsion Laboratory
InSight Sequence Team Lead
Rosetta/MEX Sequence Team Lead
Phone: (818) 393-6261
Cell: (818) 653-8213
Fax: (818) 393-3147
[1][4]thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
🇺🇸
From: Charles McCall <[2][5]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
Date: Sunday, February 22, 2015 6:38 AM
To: 'Andy May' <[3][6]andymay24 at gmail.com>, "[4][7]detomaso at poca.com"
<[5][8]detomaso at poca.com>, Mikael <[6][9]mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for suggestions
Hi all
Last fall, I commented that my engine wasn't running well. Symptoms may
be found in the e-mail below, and consensus was that they sounded carb
related, or perhaps timing related, and a number of people offered
suggestions. But the symptoms were sort of strange and didn't seem to
perfectly fit any of the theories as to the problem.
On a whim, over the winter I changed the MSD 6-AL electronic ignition,
since I had a spare and since the last time it failed, it gave some
really weird symptoms; erratic and sporadic problems. I sent the box to
MSD over Christmas for analysis and they confirmed that it failed their
test and had some issues. OK, sounds promising but was that the cause
of my problems?
It's been a harsh and snowy winter, but it has rained all week, which
cleaned most of the salt from the roads. So I took the car out today.
I'll feel better after a longer trip, but the first impression is very
positive. The hesitation and stumbling is gone, no starting problems,
and the car ran very very well. I'm cautiously saying that the problem
has been fixed.
I wanted to leave for posterity the fact that when the MSD box fails,
it isn't always catastrophic. It would actually almost be preferable if
it would, since I have a spare it and it would make the problem a
little more obvious. When they start to fail they get flaky - symptoms
that come and go. Both times they have failed I have started by
inspecting from top to bottom my carb, since the symptoms pointed in
that direction. Have an engine problem that you can't eliminate? Try
looking at your electronic ignition if you have it - it can cause all
kinds of weird running issues.
Thanks to all who answered
Anyway, my engine is not happy. This morning in the hotel parking
lot I
really thought that we'd have to skip today's event because it
wouldn't
start and didn't sound like it was even thinking about starting.
Took
probably 5 minutes of crank-wait-crank-wait before it fired.
Yesterday
at the gas station it took 2-3 minutes to start, something that has
never, ever happened before. It is really hard to describe the
problem
so much of it is "feel", but I'll do my best.
A few weeks ago I noticed that the engine would tend to stumble if I
would floor the throttle, then clear its throat and pull. For
example,
I like to heel-and-toe, just because, and when blipping the throttle
it
would stumble instead of rev. The engine also felt a little rougher,
as
though it vibrated more than I remembered it. I don't remember if
this
was before or after I did a short tune-up, by adjusting the valve
lash
(I have mechanical lifters), and cleaning the K&N air filter by
applying K&N filter oil, etc. or if it is irrelevant. So I was
messing
around in the engine bay recently...
This weekend the engine felt considerably worse. It felt like it
would
stumble under partial throttle as well. It would stumble a little
bit
under trailing throttle going downhill as well, so I don't think it
is
a clogged fuel filter.
Oil temp is perfect. Oil pressure is perfect. Water temp is perfect.
The engine idles perfectly. But if you floor the gas from idle,
it'll
stall. The engine doesn't feel crisp, it feels bloated and soft, if
that makes sense. It feels rough, and it feels like it occasionally
stumbles under constant throttle at highway speed. It pulls hard
when
accelerating, but I don't think as hard as it used to, or as high (I
have a 6500 rpm limiting chip in the MSD that it used to pull very
easily to).
Suggestions for where to begin looking? And other info that would
help
in troubleshooting?
!DSPAM:54568258260291209923907!
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5. [18]mailto:detomaso at poca.com
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7. [20]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
8. [21]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
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4. mailto:thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
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9. mailto:mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
10. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
11. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
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-------------- next part --------------
Has anyone compared the failure rate on MSD ignitions to the location?
Maybe in a hot Pantera engine compartment, the life is reduced. A lot
of professional racers use (or at least used to use in the
past) redundant MSD ignition systems that let them switch at any
moment. I assume if there was something as good or better, they would
use it.
Ken
__________________________________________________________________
From: Pantdino via DeTomaso <detomaso at poca.com>
To: charlesmccall at gmail.com; terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov;
andymay24 at gmail.com; detomaso at poca.com; mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2015 1:42 PM
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for suggestions
There are tens or hundreds of millions of cars running around with
electronic ignition systems with a failure rate of essentially zero.
If the rate for MSDs is even 1% per year it is probably 100- 1000
times
higher than the other systems.
Why would anyone use one? Doesn't it revert to single spark mode at
like 4K anyway? What is the point?'
Jim Oddie
-----Original Message-----
From: Charles McCall <[1]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
To: 'Himes, Terry (397C)' (397C)' <[2]terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov>;
'Andy
May' <[3]andymay24 at gmail.com>; detomaso <[4]detomaso at poca.com>;
'Mikael'
<[5]mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk>
Sent: Sun, Feb 22, 2015 12:56 pm
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for suggestions
Terry -
I had a similar discussion off-line with a forum member when I
mentioned that I'd had 2 MSD boxes go bad in the 15 years I've been
running them. He mentioned that there were numerous cases of MSD
boxes
failing, and I've heard them as well.
What I don't have are facts or data with respect to failure rates. Do
we hear about MSD boxes failing because they are 4 times as popular
as
the nearest competitor and that's why we hear about them? If we only
base our opinions on "background noise" or reported issues on a
forum,
then Panteras are not terribly reliable, so we need to look for data.
Does anyone know if there are any objective studies regarding failure
rate per year, or miles, or something?
The previous box failed (I believe) because someone welded on the car
without disconnecting the unit, something we are warned not to do.
This
box I had no explanation. Happy to change units if there are
objective
facts that demonstrate that someone else has a better product. Any
thoughts?
From: Himes, Terry (397C) [[1]mailto:[6]terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov]
Sent: domingo, 22 de febrero de 2015 21:35
To: Charles McCall; 'Andy May'; [2][7]detomaso at poca.com; Mikael
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for suggestions
Exactly why I don't run MSD. I have heard many many stories just
like
this.
(only my personal preference. no flames)
Thanks Charles for sharing.
"Sometimes I think the surest signs that intelligent life
exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried
to contact us!"
Terry W. Himes [cid:[3][8]image001.png at 01D04EE9.ADCE0150]
JPL Jet Propulsion Laboratory
InSight Sequence Team Lead
Rosetta/MEX Sequence Team Lead
Phone: (818) 393-6261
Cell: (818) 653-8213
Fax: (818) 393-3147
[1][4][9]thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
d--od-,
From: Charles McCall <[2][5][10]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
Date: Sunday, February 22, 2015 6:38 AM
To: 'Andy May' <[3][6][11]andymay24 at gmail.com>,
"[4][7][12]detomaso at poca.com"
<[5][8][13]detomaso at poca.com>, Mikael
<[6][9][14]mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for suggestions
Hi all
Last fall, I commented that my engine wasn't running well. Symptoms
may
be found in the e-mail below, and consensus was that they sounded
carb
related, or perhaps timing related, and a number of people offered
suggestions. But the symptoms were sort of strange and didn't seem to
perfectly fit any of the theories as to the problem.
On a whim, over the winter I changed the MSD 6-AL electronic
ignition,
since I had a spare and since the last time it failed, it gave some
really weird symptoms; erratic and sporadic problems. I sent the box
to
MSD over Christmas for analysis and they confirmed that it failed
their
test and had some issues. OK, sounds promising but was that the cause
of my problems?
It's been a harsh and snowy winter, but it has rained all week, which
cleaned most of the salt from the roads. So I took the car out today.
I'll feel better after a longer trip, but the first impression is
very
positive. The hesitation and stumbling is gone, no starting problems,
and the car ran very very well. I'm cautiously saying that the
problem
has been fixed.
I wanted to leave for posterity the fact that when the MSD box fails,
it isn't always catastrophic. It would actually almost be preferable
if
it would, since I have a spare it and it would make the problem a
little more obvious. When they start to fail they get flaky -
symptoms
that come and go. Both times they have failed I have started by
inspecting from top to bottom my carb, since the symptoms pointed in
that direction. Have an engine problem that you can't eliminate? Try
looking at your electronic ignition if you have it - it can cause all
kinds of weird running issues.
Thanks to all who answered
Anyway, my engine is not happy. This morning in the hotel parking
lot I
really thought that we'd have to skip today's event because it
wouldn't
start and didn't sound like it was even thinking about starting.
Took
probably 5 minutes of crank-wait-crank-wait before it fired.
Yesterday
at the gas station it took 2-3 minutes to start, something that
has
never, ever happened before. It is really hard to describe the
problem
so much of it is "feel", but I'll do my best.
A few weeks ago I noticed that the engine would tend to stumble
if I
would floor the throttle, then clear its throat and pull. For
example,
I like to heel-and-toe, just because, and when blipping the
throttle
it
would stumble instead of rev. The engine also felt a little
rougher,
as
though it vibrated more than I remembered it. I don't remember if
this
was before or after I did a short tune-up, by adjusting the valve
lash
(I have mechanical lifters), and cleaning the K&N air filter by
applying K&N filter oil, etc. or if it is irrelevant. So I was
messing
around in the engine bay recently...
This weekend the engine felt considerably worse. It felt like it
would
stumble under partial throttle as well. It would stumble a little
bit
under trailing throttle going downhill as well, so I don't think
it
is
a clogged fuel filter.
Oil temp is perfect. Oil pressure is perfect. Water temp is
perfect.
The engine idles perfectly. But if you floor the gas from idle,
it'll
stall. The engine doesn't feel crisp, it feels bloated and soft,
if
that makes sense. It feels rough, and it feels like it
occasionally
stumbles under constant throttle at highway speed. It pulls hard
when
accelerating, but I don't think as hard as it used to, or as high
(I
have a 6500 rpm limiting chip in the MSD that it used to pull
very
easily to).
Suggestions for where to begin looking? And other info that would
help
in troubleshooting?
!DSPAM:54568258260291209923907!
_______________________________________________
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4. [17]mailto:[22]detomaso at poca.com
5. [18]mailto:[23]detomaso at poca.com
6. [19]mailto:[24]mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
7. [20]mailto:[25]DeTomaso at poca.com
8. [21][26]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
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