[DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for suggestions

Sun Feb 22 15:55:46 EST 2015

Terry – 

I had a similar discussion off-line with a forum member when I mentioned that I’d had 2 MSD boxes go bad in the 15 years I’ve been running them. He mentioned that there were numerous cases of MSD boxes failing, and I’ve heard them as well. 

What I don’t have are facts or data with respect to failure rates. Do we hear about MSD boxes failing because they are 4 times as popular as the nearest competitor and that’s why we hear about them? If we only base our opinions on “background noise” or reported issues on a forum, then Panteras are not terribly reliable, so we need to look for data. Does anyone know if there are any objective studies regarding failure rate per year, or miles, or something? 

The previous box failed (I believe) because someone welded on the car without disconnecting the unit, something we are warned not to do. This box I had no explanation. Happy to change units if there are objective facts that demonstrate that someone else has a better product. Any thoughts? 

From: Himes, Terry (397C) [mailto:terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov] 
Sent: domingo, 22 de febrero de 2015 21:35
To: Charles McCall; 'Andy May'; detomaso at poca.com; Mikael
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for suggestions

Exactly why I don't run MSD.  I have heard many many stories just like this.  

(only my personal preference.  no flames)

Thanks Charles for sharing.

"Sometimes I think the surest signs that intelligent life 

  exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried

  to contact us!"

Terry W. Himes 

JPL Jet Propulsion Laboratory

InSight Sequence Team Lead

Rosetta/MEX Sequence Team Lead

Phone: (818) 393-6261

Cell:     (818) 653-8213

Fax:     (818) 393-3147

thimes at jpl.nasa.gov

🇺🇸

From: Charles McCall <charlesmccall at gmail.com>
Date: Sunday, February 22, 2015 6:38 AM
To: 'Andy May' <andymay24 at gmail.com>, "detomaso at poca.com" <detomaso at poca.com>, Mikael <mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for suggestions

Hi all

Last fall, I commented that my engine wasn’t running well. Symptoms may be found in the e-mail below, and consensus was that they sounded carb related, or perhaps timing related, and a number of people offered suggestions. But the symptoms were sort of strange and didn’t seem to perfectly fit any of the theories as to the problem. 

On a whim, over the winter I changed the MSD 6-AL electronic ignition, since I had a spare and since the last time it failed, it gave some really weird symptoms; erratic and sporadic problems. I sent the box to MSD over Christmas for analysis and they confirmed that it failed their test and had some issues. OK, sounds promising but was that the cause of my problems?

It’s been a harsh and snowy winter, but it has rained all week, which cleaned most of the salt from the roads. So I took the car out today. I’ll feel better after a longer trip, but the first impression is very positive. The hesitation and stumbling is gone, no starting problems, and the car ran very very well. I’m cautiously saying that the problem has been fixed. 

I wanted to leave for posterity the fact that when the MSD box fails, it isn’t always catastrophic. It would actually almost be preferable if it would, since I have a spare it and it would make the problem a little more obvious. When they start to fail they get flaky – symptoms that come and go. Both times they have failed I have started by inspecting from top to bottom my carb, since the symptoms pointed in that direction. Have an engine problem that you can’t eliminate? Try looking at your electronic ignition if you have it – it can cause all kinds of weird running issues. 

Thanks to all who answered

   Anyway, my engine is not happy. This morning in the hotel parking lot I

   really thought that we'd have to skip today's event because it wouldn't

   start and didn't sound like it was even thinking about starting. Took

   probably 5 minutes of crank-wait-crank-wait before it fired. Yesterday

   at the gas station it took 2-3 minutes to start, something that has

   never, ever happened before. It is really hard to describe the problem

   so much of it is "feel", but I'll do my best.

   A few weeks ago I noticed that the engine would tend to stumble if I

   would floor the throttle, then clear its throat and pull. For example,

   I like to heel-and-toe, just because, and when blipping the throttle it

   would stumble instead of rev. The engine also felt a little rougher, as

   though it vibrated more than I remembered it. I don't remember if this

   was before or after I did a short tune-up, by adjusting the valve lash

   (I have mechanical lifters), and cleaning the K&N air filter by

   applying K&N filter oil, etc. or if it is irrelevant. So I was messing

   around in the engine bay recently...

   This weekend the engine felt considerably worse. It felt like it would

   stumble under partial throttle as well. It would stumble a little bit

   under trailing throttle going downhill as well, so I don't think it is

   a clogged fuel filter.

   Oil temp is perfect. Oil pressure is perfect. Water temp is perfect.

   The engine idles perfectly. But if you floor the gas from idle, it'll

   stall. The engine doesn't feel crisp, it feels bloated and soft, if

   that makes sense. It feels rough, and it feels like it occasionally

   stumbles under constant throttle at highway speed. It pulls hard when

   accelerating, but I don't think as hard as it used to, or as high (I

   have a 6500 rpm limiting chip in the MSD that it used to pull very

   easily to).

   Suggestions for where to begin looking? And other info that would help

   in troubleshooting?

!DSPAM:54568258260291209923907!

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-------------- next part --------------
   Terry -

   I had a similar discussion off-line with a forum member when I
   mentioned that I'd had 2 MSD boxes go bad in the 15 years I've been
   running them. He mentioned that there were numerous cases of MSD boxes
   failing, and I've heard them as well.

   What I don't have are facts or data with respect to failure rates. Do
   we hear about MSD boxes failing because they are 4 times as popular as
   the nearest competitor and that's why we hear about them? If we only
   base our opinions on "background noise" or reported issues on a forum,
   then Panteras are not terribly reliable, so we need to look for data.
   Does anyone know if there are any objective studies regarding failure
   rate per year, or miles, or something?

   The previous box failed (I believe) because someone welded on the car
   without disconnecting the unit, something we are warned not to do. This
   box I had no explanation. Happy to change units if there are objective
   facts that demonstrate that someone else has a better product. Any
   thoughts?

   From: Himes, Terry (397C) [mailto:terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov]
   Sent: domingo, 22 de febrero de 2015 21:35
   To: Charles McCall; 'Andy May'; detomaso at poca.com; Mikael
   Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for suggestions

   Exactly why I don't run MSD.  I have heard many many stories just like
   this.

   (only my personal preference.  no flames)

   Thanks Charles for sharing.

   "Sometimes I think the surest signs that intelligent life

     exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried

     to contact us!"

   Terry W. Himes  [cid:image001.png at 01D04EE9.ADCE0150]

   JPL Jet Propulsion Laboratory

   InSight Sequence Team Lead

   Rosetta/MEX Sequence Team Lead

   Phone: (818) 393-6261

   Cell:     (818) 653-8213

   Fax:     (818) 393-3147

   [1]thimes at jpl.nasa.gov

   🇺🇸

   From: Charles McCall <[2]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
   Date: Sunday, February 22, 2015 6:38 AM
   To: 'Andy May' <[3]andymay24 at gmail.com>, "[4]detomaso at poca.com"
   <[5]detomaso at poca.com>, Mikael <[6]mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk>
   Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for suggestions

   Hi all

   Last fall, I commented that my engine wasn't running well. Symptoms may
   be found in the e-mail below, and consensus was that they sounded carb
   related, or perhaps timing related, and a number of people offered
   suggestions. But the symptoms were sort of strange and didn't seem to
   perfectly fit any of the theories as to the problem.

   On a whim, over the winter I changed the MSD 6-AL electronic ignition,
   since I had a spare and since the last time it failed, it gave some
   really weird symptoms; erratic and sporadic problems. I sent the box to
   MSD over Christmas for analysis and they confirmed that it failed their
   test and had some issues. OK, sounds promising but was that the cause
   of my problems?

   It's been a harsh and snowy winter, but it has rained all week, which
   cleaned most of the salt from the roads. So I took the car out today.
   I'll feel better after a longer trip, but the first impression is very
   positive. The hesitation and stumbling is gone, no starting problems,
   and the car ran very very well. I'm cautiously saying that the problem
   has been fixed.

   I wanted to leave for posterity the fact that when the MSD box fails,
   it isn't always catastrophic. It would actually almost be preferable if
   it would, since I have a spare it and it would make the problem a
   little more obvious. When they start to fail they get flaky - symptoms
   that come and go. Both times they have failed I have started by
   inspecting from top to bottom my carb, since the symptoms pointed in
   that direction. Have an engine problem that you can't eliminate? Try
   looking at your electronic ignition if you have it - it can cause all
   kinds of weird running issues.

   Thanks to all who answered

      Anyway, my engine is not happy. This morning in the hotel parking
   lot I

      really thought that we'd have to skip today's event because it
   wouldn't

      start and didn't sound like it was even thinking about starting.
   Took

      probably 5 minutes of crank-wait-crank-wait before it fired.
   Yesterday

      at the gas station it took 2-3 minutes to start, something that has

      never, ever happened before. It is really hard to describe the
   problem

      so much of it is "feel", but I'll do my best.

      A few weeks ago I noticed that the engine would tend to stumble if I

      would floor the throttle, then clear its throat and pull. For
   example,

      I like to heel-and-toe, just because, and when blipping the throttle
   it

      would stumble instead of rev. The engine also felt a little rougher,
   as

      though it vibrated more than I remembered it. I don't remember if
   this

      was before or after I did a short tune-up, by adjusting the valve
   lash

      (I have mechanical lifters), and cleaning the K&N air filter by

      applying K&N filter oil, etc. or if it is irrelevant. So I was
   messing

      around in the engine bay recently...

      This weekend the engine felt considerably worse. It felt like it
   would

      stumble under partial throttle as well. It would stumble a little
   bit

      under trailing throttle going downhill as well, so I don't think it
   is

      a clogged fuel filter.

      Oil temp is perfect. Oil pressure is perfect. Water temp is perfect.

      The engine idles perfectly. But if you floor the gas from idle,
   it'll

      stall. The engine doesn't feel crisp, it feels bloated and soft, if

      that makes sense. It feels rough, and it feels like it occasionally

      stumbles under constant throttle at highway speed. It pulls hard
   when

      accelerating, but I don't think as hard as it used to, or as high (I

      have a 6500 rpm limiting chip in the MSD that it used to pull very

      easily to).

      Suggestions for where to begin looking? And other info that would
   help

      in troubleshooting?

   !DSPAM:54568258260291209923907!

   _______________________________________________

   Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA

   DeTomaso mailing list

   [7]DeTomaso at poca.com

   [8]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com

   !DSPAM:54568258260291209923907!

   _______________________________________________

   Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA

   DeTomaso mailing list

   [9]DeTomaso at poca.com

   [10]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com

References

   1. mailto:thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
   2. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
   3. mailto:andymay24 at gmail.com
   4. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
   5. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
   6. mailto:mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
   7. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
   8. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
   9. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
  10. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
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