[DeTomaso] Sodium valves
Scott Bell
scott at saccrestorations.net
Thu Feb 19 14:09:23 EST 2015
Sodium filled valves also come in titanium...
-----Original Message-----
From: DeTomaso [mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com] On Behalf Of Sean Korb
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2015 8:29 AM
To: j g
Cc: ', Ken Green', ; B. SEIB; ', DetomasoList',
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Sodium valves
I'm fascinated by sodium cooled valves, but I think titanium is a more
popular option in this crowd. There were some made available for racing
and while they do not have a cooling technology they do endure more heat
than a stainless valve. They come up on ebay or a swap meet occasionally.
I just have a street engine so I'm not concerned... just fascinated.
sean
On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 10:01 AM, j g via DeTomaso <detomaso at poca.com>
wrote:
> I take no credit for the content below just passing along published
> public domain material.
>
> LSJ[[1]edit]
>
> Ecotec LSJ engine in a 2006 [2]Saturn Ion Red Line
> The LSJ is a supercharged version of the LK9 Ecotec 2.0 La 1,998 cc
> (121.9 cu in)a with an [3]Eaton M62 [4]Roots-type supercharger and
> air-to-liquid [5]intercooler. The LSJ shares many of its components
> with the LK9 such as: piston cooling jets, oil cooler, pistons,
> connecting rods, crankshaft, oil pan, sodium-filled exhaust valves and
> cylinder head.^[6][8] It is rated at 205 hp
>
> 2.0 LNF[[7]edit]
>
> Ecotec LNF in a [8]Pontiac Solstice
> A turbocharged [9]direct injected (redubbed Spark Ignition Direct
> Injection) Ecotec was introduced in the 2007 [10]Pontiac Solstice GXP
> and [11]Saturn Sky Red Line. In these applications, the engine is
> mounted longitudinally. Displacement is 2.0 La1,998 cc (121.9 cu
> in)awith a square 86 millimetres (3.4 in) bore and stroke. Compression
> is 9.2:1 and maximum boost is 1.4 bar (20.0 psi), delivering 260 hp
> (190 kW) at 5300 rpm and 260 lbA.ft (350 NA.m) of torque from 2500 to
> 5250 rpm. Engine redline is at 6300 rpm and premium fuel is
> recommended. The sodium filled exhaust valves were based on technology
> developed for the Corvette V8 powertrains. The sodium fuses and becomes
> a liquid at idle, which improves conductivity and draws heat away from
> the valve face and valve guide towards the stem to be cooled by the
> engine oil circulating in this area.[12]sodium-filled stainless steel
> [13]Inconel exhaust [14]valves
>
>
> LDK[[15]edit]
>
> An updated variant of the LNF (also with 9.2:1 compression ratio). This
> engine is also known as A20NFT and A20NHT by GM Powertrain Europe.
> This engine is used in: all have [16]sodium-filled stainless steel
> [17]Inconel exhaust [18]valves
> Year(s) Model Power Torque
> 2009 [19]Opel Insignia 162 [20]kW (220 [21]PS; 217 [22]hp) @ 5300 rpm
> 350 NA.m (258 lbA.ft) @ 2500 rpm
> 2009a2010 [23]Buick Regal Turbo 162 [24]kW (220 [25]PS; 217 [26]hp) @
> 5300 rpm 350 NA.m (258 lbA.ft) @ 2500 rpm
> 2010a2013 [27]Buick Regal GS (Chinese Market) 162 [28]kW (220 [29]PS;
> 217 [30]hp) @ 5300 rpm 350 NA.m (258 lbA.ft) @ 2500 rpm
> 2009a2010 [31]Buick Regal Turbo (Hirsch Performance) 192 [32]kW (261
> [33]PS; 257 [34]hp) @ 5400 rpm 400 NA.m (295 lbA.ft) @ 3000a4000 rpm
> 2010a2013 [35]Buick Regal GS (Hirsch Performance) 192 kW (261 PS; 257
> hp) @ 5400 rpm 400 NA.m (300 lbA.ft) @ 3000a4000 rpm
> 2010a2012 [36]Saab 9-5 162 kW (220 PS; 217 hp) @ 5300 rpm 350 NA.m (258
> lbA.ft) @ 2500 rpm
> 2011, 2013a [37]Saab 9-3 ([38]NEVS) 162 kW (220 PS; 217 hp) @ 5300 rpm
> 350 NA.m (258 lbA.ft) @ 2500 rpm
> 2011 [39]Opel Insignia 4x4 184 kW (250 PS; 247 hp) @ 5300 rpm 400 NA.m
> (300 lbA.ft) @ 2400a3600 rpm
> 2012 [40]Opel Astra J OPC 206 kW (280 PS; 276 hp) @ 5500 rpm 400 NA.m
> (300 lbA.ft) @ 2500a4500 rpm
> 2014a [41]Buick Regal GS (Chinese Market) 187 kW (254 PS; 251 hp) @
> 5300 rpm 350 NA.m (260 lbA.ft) @ 2000a5000 rpm
> 2014a [42]Buick Regal GS (Hirsch Performance) 205 kW (279 PS; 275 hp) @
> 5400 rpm 410 NA.m (300 lbA.ft) @ 3000a4000 rpm
>
>
> 2.0[[43]edit]
>
> LTG[[44]edit]
>
> A 2.0 L (1998 cc) [45]turbocharged direct injection version of the gen
> III Ecotec will be available in 2013 [46]Cadillac ATS and [47]Chevrolet
> Malibu.This engine is also available in [48]Cadillac XTS in Chinese
> market. Bore and stroke are both 86.0 millimetres (3.39 in),
> compression is 9.5:1. The engine uses [49]twin-scroll turbocharger with
> electronically controlled wastegate/bypass valve, air-to-air
> intercooler, stainless steel dual-scroll (1a4, 2a3) exhaust manifold
> designed to withstand 980 ADEGC (1,800 ADEGF) turbine temperature, and
> [50]rotacast aluminum alloy (A356T6) cylinder head with sodium-filled
> exhaust valves
>
>
> ford stuff
> ford FE "The intake and exhaust valves are larger than those found on
> the 427 production engine". The exhaust valves feature a sodium filled
> hollow stem for better heat conduction
>
> 5.0-liter V-8: 435 hp, 400 lb-ft
> Fordas Coyote V-8 carries over as well, although it receives more
> substantial changes. Mustang engineers used the [51]low-volume Boss
> 302as V-8, a [52]glorious-sounding 444-hp powerhouse, as its
> performance bogey. Unfortunately, the Boss engine incorporated some
> expensive manufacturing tricks that Ford couldnat possibly use in a
> mass-produced engine, like hollow intake valves, sodium-filled exhaust
> valves, and CNC-ported heads, so it had to look elsewhere to approach
> Boss power levels.
>
>
> The 1963 Indy pushrod engine produced 375 BHP at 7200 RPM from 255
> cubic inches
> Ford powered Lotus cars were prepared for Indy in 1963, to be driven by
> Dan Gurney and Jimmy Clark. The high performance 260 used in the Cobra
> was the starting point, dubbed the Stage 0 engine. Stage 1 involved
> revised and enlarged intake and exhaust ports, and 12.5:1 compression
> through the used of forged pop-up pistons. The special intake manifold
> carried four 46mm downdraft Webers carburetors. Larger valves,
> hollow-stemmed intakes and sodium-filled exhausts were fitted to the
> heads, along with high silicon content aluminum alloy retainers.
>
>
>
> [53]https://books.google.com/books?id=MaTmIcR2atAC&pg=PA74&lpg=PA74&dq=
> ford+engines+sodium+filled+exhaust+valves&source=bl&ots=RRBKRsUD5Z&sig=
> gPx7pk_Kb-FH5ufMokP2IXgNQBw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=6vjlVKj4JYqryQTJ14EI&ved=0CDs
> Q6AEwBjgK#v=onepage&q=ford%20engines%20sodium%20filled%20exhaust%20valv
> es&f=false
>
> __________________________________________________________________
>
> From: B. SEIB <oldwheel at shaw.ca>
> To: 'j g' <notstock at yahoo.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2015 6:27 PM
> Subject: RE: [DeTomaso] Sodium valves
> I wonder if the Buick GN had sodium ex valves then too?
> Do you know if any of Ford's turbo or supercharged engines use sodium
> filled valves jg?
> Barry
> __________________________________________________________________
>
> From: j g [mailto:notstock at yahoo.com]
> Sent: February-18-15 5:25 PM
> To: B. SEIB; 'Ken Green'; 'Charles De Francisco'; 'DetomasoList'
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Sodium valves
> sodium filled exhaust valves were also used on the corvair turbo
> charged engines from 62 on to the end of the 68
> all 911 engines up to the 964 have sodium filled exhaust valves .
> lt-4 zo6 had sodium filled exhaust valves . all turbo and supercharged
> chevrolet engines have had sodium filled exhaust valves from the
> factory. ls7 included
> On the exhaust side, sodium-filling is the best way to increase the
> head cooling capacity of a hollow exhaust valve. If stock diameter
> steel valves are required, but a valve weight is not mandated, going to
> a hollow intake and sodium-filled exhaust is certainly a major
> advantage. better cooling of the valve and the guide as well as lighter
> than other types except titanium .
> Stainless steel (for street performance) has much better durability
> characteristics than titanium, and the street guys wonat usually see
> the real benefits of titanium. In racing, use titanium when you want to
> lose weighta|and spend a lot of money. sodium filled exhaust valves
> were an off shoot spin off from the aircraft engines way back .
>
> jg
> __________________________________________________________________
>
> From: B. SEIB <oldwheel at shaw.ca>
> To: 'Ken Green' <kenn_green at yahoo.com>; 'Charles De Francisco'
> <drfortinbras at gmail.com>; 'DetomasoList' <detomaso at poca.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2015 4:12 PM
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Sodium valves
> Yes, that sounds reasonable. I think it was for use in aircraft
> engines
> with some form of supercharging that they were originally developed.
> I
> just didn't realize they were back in style!
> Barry
> __________________________________________________________________
> From: Ken Green [mailto:[54]kenn_green at yahoo.com]
> Sent: February-18-15 4:07 PM
> To: B. SEIB; 'Charles De Francisco'; 'DetomasoList'
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Sodium valves
> What I read said the stock LS7 has sodium filled exhaust valves.
> I would guess that a turbo charged production engine might have them
> to
> handle the heat?
> Ken
> __________________________________________________________________
> From: B. SEIB <[55]oldwheel at shaw.ca>
> To: 'Charles De Francisco' <[56]drfortinbras at gmail.com>; 'Ken Green'
> <[57]kenn_green at yahoo.com>; 'DetomasoList' <[58]detomaso at poca.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2015 2:00 PM
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Sodium valves
> Thanks Charles
> I wouldn't be surprised if sodium valves were used in Nascar hemis
> or
> Boss 429 engines too. I just don't recall any production engines
> with
> them, but I could be wrong.....
> Ken Green says the LS7 uses them !
> I'm surprised at that. I wonder if that's in the GM engine as
> produced
> or an aftermarket thing?
> Ken, do you know?
> Barry
>
> __________________________________________________________________
> From: Charles De Francisco [mailto:[1][59]drfortinbras at gmail.com]
> Sent: February-18-15 3:41 PM
> To: B. SEIB
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Sodium valves
> Hi Barry your info was almost rite on. Ford did offer the sodium
> valves on the 427 engines for thr Cobras used in their race program
> There was a issue with the nos valves as the sodium corroded the
> inside
> causing them to come apart as they were drilled to make the stem
> hollow..the story I heard was the sodium was to provide cooling of
> the
> valve stem in endurance racing...we used some
> In drag race engines as they were somewhat lighter..a much better
> set
> up would be manley stainless valves..?..Pete Coleman
> At manley in Lakewood n.j. 732-905-3366 would be able to help you
> on
> this issue.
> On Wednesday, February 18, 2015, B. SEIB
> <[1][2][60]oldwheel at shaw.ca>
> wrote:
> Hi Robert
> Sodium valves were a feature in the 375HP version of Corvette 327
> engines
> with fuel injection. I don't recall sodium valves being used in
> other US
> standard production engines. Maybe some other exotic engines did.
> Later
> valve steels and technology made the risks and expense of sodium
> filled
> valves obsolete in HP engines. The idea originated in aircraft
> piston
> engines back around WWII, I think, and was related to trying to
> cool
> exhaust
> valves under high stress loads.
> The 1971 Cleveland 351-4V engines in Panteras (and Mustangs,etc.)
> had high
> compression closed chamber (quench) heads, single point
> distributors, small
> square bore 600cfm 4300A carbs and 2 bolt mains. The Boss 351 was
> the only
> 351C to get 4 bolt mains, dual point distributor and the large
> spreadbore
> Motorcraft 4300D carb in 1971 along with high compression CC
> heads.
> Some people have said that some 1971 4V engines found there way
> into
> very
> early 72 Panteras, but probably only in early January 72 cars.
> The
> 1972
> Cobra-jet engines would have entered production in Sept of 1971
> and
> by the
> end of 1971, DeTomaso was likely to have used their engine stock
> on
> hand and
> have received new Cobra-jet engines from Ford. I understand
> DeTomaso
> was
> generally receiving engines only about a month or so after they
> were
> produced in the US plant.
> 1972 Panteras came with Cobra-jet engines that had open chamber
> (lower
> compression) 4V heads but with 4 bolt mains, dual point
> distributor
> and
> large spreadbore Motorcraft 4300D carb. This was the strange
> result
> of Ford
> trying to recover some of the power lost to stricter emission
> standards for
> 1972. The compression had to come down for unleaded gas and Ford
> upped the
> RPM to try to get some oomph back. They retarded the cam timing
> and
> hopped
> it up a bit to get the power at higher revs, thus the dual point
> and
> 4 bolt
> mains.
> 1973 and 74 went downhill from there, with increasing emissions
> and
> lower
> compression.
> So...the best heads were in 1971, but everything else was better
> in
> 1972.
> Unless you have a 1971 BOSS 351 engine, which never came in a
> production US
> market Pantera. Pity that.
> Barry
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> References
>
> Visible links
> 1.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=GM_Ecotec_engine&action=edit§ion=4
> 2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_Ion
> 3. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eaton_Corporation
> 4. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roots-type_supercharger
> 5. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercooler
> 6. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_Ecotec_engine#cite_note-8
> 7.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=GM_Ecotec_engine&action=edit§ion=10
> 8. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontiac_Solstice
> 9. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_direct_injection
> 10. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontiac_Solstice
> 11. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_Sky
> 12. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium
> 13. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inconel
> 14. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poppet_valve
> 15.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=GM_Ecotec_engine&action=edit§ion=11
> 16. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium
> 17. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inconel
> 18. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poppet_valve
> 19. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opel_Insignia
> 20. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilowatt
> 21. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metric_horsepower
> 22. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horsepower
> 23.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buick_Regal#Fifth_generation_.282009.E2.80.93present.29
> 24. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilowatt
> 25. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metric_horsepower
> 26. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horsepower
> 27. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buick_Regal#.23Regal_GS
> 28. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilowatt
> 29. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metric_horsepower
> 30. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horsepower
> 31.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buick_Regal#Fifth_generation_.282009.E2.80.93present.29
> 32. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilowatt
> 33. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metric_horsepower
> 34. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horsepower
> 35. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buick_Regal#.23Regal_GS
> 36. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_9-5
> 37. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_9-3
> 38. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEVS
> 39. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opel_Insignia
> 40. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opel_Astra#OPC_2
> 41. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buick_Regal#.23Regal_GS
> 42. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buick_Regal#.23Regal_GS
> 43.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=GM_Ecotec_engine&action=edit§ion=25
> 44.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=GM_Ecotec_engine&action=edit§ion=26
> 45. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbocharged
> 46. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadillac_ATS
> 47. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Malibu
> 48. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadillac_XTS
> 49. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin-scroll_turbocharger
> 50. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centrifugal_casting_(industrial)
> 51.
> http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2012-ford-mustang-boss-302-test-review
> 52. http://blog.caranddriver.com/name-that-exhaust-note-episode-103/
> 53.
> https://books.google.com/books?id=MaTmIcR2atAC&pg=PA74&lpg=PA74&dq=ford+engines+sodium+filled+exhaust+valves&source=bl&ots=RRBKRsUD5Z&sig=gPx7pk_Kb-FH5ufMokP2IXgNQBw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=6vjlVKj4JYqryQTJ14EI&ved=0CDsQ6AEwBjgK#v=onepage&q=ford%20engines%20sodium%20filled%20exhaust%20valves&f=false
> 54. mailto:kenn_green at yahoo.com
> 55. mailto:oldwheel at shaw.ca
> 56. mailto:drfortinbras at gmail.com
> 57. mailto:kenn_green at yahoo.com
> 58. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
> 59. mailto:drfortinbras at gmail.com
> 60. mailto:oldwheel at shaw.ca
> 61. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> 62. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 63. mailto:oldwheel at shaw.ca
> 64. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 65. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> 66. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 67. mailto:drfortinbras at gmail.com
> 68. mailto:oldwheel at shaw.ca
> 69. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> 70. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 71. mailto:oldwheel at shaw.ca
> 72. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 73. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> 74. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 75. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> 76. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>
> Hidden links:
> 77.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2006_Saturn_Ion_Red_Line_engine.jpg
> 78.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2006_Saturn_Ion_Red_Line_engine.jpg
> 79. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Car_show_013.jpg
> 80. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Car_show_013.jpg
>
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--
Sean Korb spkorb at spkorb.org http://www.spkorb.org
'65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 Pantera #1382
"The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
"Computers are useless. They can only give you answers." -P. Picasso
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