[DeTomaso] Headers/Exhaust
Don Thomas
don.thomas.ieee at gmail.com
Sat Feb 14 02:42:53 EST 2015
Dan,
Did you ever run a test with the MindTrain Headers and Exhaust ?
I would be curious how much loss was with those headers.
Thanks,
-dt
On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 11:16 AM, Daniel C Jones <daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com>
wrote:
> > Question for me is, what was the base HP, Dan Jones got 31 HP more?
> Was it a stock engine or a highly modified? How many percent was it?
> I've done a number of exhaust tests.A On the dyno mule 351C which is
> around 400 HP, the stock ANSA mufflers lost 50 HP to the Magnaflows
> using the same headers.A the larger diameter aftermarket Euro GTS
> mufflers were also tested on a 500 HP 408C and they lost 50 HP compared
> to the Magnaflows.A Later we tested Mike Drew's Mike Drew's modifed
> ANSAs (cans gutted and filled with a perforated Y-pipe so no baffles)
> and they lost 38 HP on the dyno mule 351C.A Finally, we tested the
> Wilkinson mufflers on a different 408C.A The details are summarized
> here:
> A [1]http://poca.com/pipermail/detomaso_poca.com/2012-December/066634.h
> tml
> The relevant passages are below.A Given their size and design, the
> Wilkinson set-up did pretty well compared to even Mike Drew's gutted
> mufflers but weren't as good as open pipes or the Magnaflows:
> "Several exhaust systems were tested with the following results
> (rounded to the nearest HP):
> 1. Wilkinson stainless steel Pantera shorty 4-into-1 headers and
> exhaust (2 1/4" OD) with stock appearing mufflers:
> A 552 HP @ 6000 RPM
> A 518 ft-lbs @ 4500 RPM
> That's really amazing power to be pushing through shorty Pantera
> headers and mufflers with 2 1/4" tail pipes.A Compare to the following
> test and the Wilkinson exhaust is worth 31 HP on this engine (perhaps
> more when we test the Funnelweb intake manifold and 950HP carb).A
> Given the stainless steel construction, low cost and HP increase, the
> Wilkinson exhaust are excellent pieces.
> 2. ANSA Euro GTS headers and exhaust
> A 521 HP @ 6000 RPM
> A 500 ft-lbs @ 4800 RPM
> These are the better flowing Euro GTS version of the Pantera ANSA
> mufflers and matching headers. Down 31 HP and 18 ft-lbs to the
> Wilkinson version.
> 3. Mustang long tube headers without exhaust (no mufflers),
> specifically Hooker Competition headers (part number HOK-6920HKR) with
> 1 3/4" diameter by 27" long primaries, 3" diameter by 8" long collector
> with 12 inch long collector extensions
> A 564 HP @ 5900 RPM
> A 546 ft-lbs @ 4600 RPM
> 4. The above Hooker Mustang long tube headers with 3" inlet/outlet
> Magnaflow stainless steel mufflers.
> A 555 HP @ 5900 RPM
> A 535 ft-lbs @ 4800 RPM
> Only 3 HP peak more than the Wilkinson exhaust but 17 ft-lbs more peak
> torque due to the long primary headers.A Open headers were worth
> another 11 HP and 11 ft-lbs so I'd bet a cross-over would be worth some
> power when running mufflers.
> Dan Jones
>
> On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 12:57 PM, R.J <[2]willibillie at live.de> wrote:
>
> A A Question for me is, what was the base HP, Dan Jones got 31 HP
> more? Was
> A A it a stock engine or a highly modified? How many percent was
> it?
> A A Roland
> A A Am 08.02.2015 um 12:07 schrieb Mike Drew via DeTomaso:
> A A In a message dated 2/7/15 21 24 31, [1][3]mghibli7 at hotmail.com
> writes:
> A A A A I have finally decided to switch back to normal exhaust
> on my
> A A A Pantera.
> A A A A I will keep the 180's.
> A A >>>Why would you keep them?A Seems to me you should either
> keep them
> A A and use them, or switch and sell them to fund the switch?
> A A A >A I want something that looks stock, but flows better.A
> My car has
> A A A been
> A A A A through a few stages.A The one that I enjoyed the most
> was
> A A A slightly
> A A A A modified over stock.A It is currently in the
> too-modified
> A A A condition.
> A A A A It feels like a race car slightly detuned for the street.
> A A A A I've been thinking about GTS headers like these:
> A A A A [1][2][4]http://www.precisionproformance.com/ex1015.php.
>
> A A A A Any recommendations on mufflers?A Do any of the vendors
> sell ANSA
> A A A style
> A A A A mufflers that flow better than stock?
> A A >>>All the vendors sell the factory GTS exhaust system.A They all
> A A source their ANSA GTS mufflers from Hall, who is the exclusive
> north
> A A American distributor for them, and sell them for about the same
> price.
> A A The headers are perfect copies of the ANSA originals but made in
> the
> A A USA.
> A A The mufflers are fantastically expensive.A The original GTS
> mufflers
> A A are also quite restrictive; Dan Jones dyno tests showed they
> knocked a
> A A full 50 hp (!) off from an optimized system (Mustang headers and
> A A conventional non-Pantera mufflers) in back-to-back tests.
> A A I gutted my GTS mufflers to improve them, and shipped them to Dan
> for a
> A A back-to-back test with unmodified GTS mufflers and was sad to
> learn
> A A that I only picked up 12 hp; it wasn't worth the effort to modify
> A A them.A I concluded that the culprit is the four tips, whose
> center
> A A holes are not nearly large enough.A The new-production mufflers
> no
> A A longer use resonators; they have chrome tips with an unnecessary
> A A restriction inside, but they are at least larger inside diameter
> than
> A A the old ones were.
> A A Wilkinson's copy of the GTS exhaust system is brilliant.A Dan
> A A dyno-tested them and found that they picked up a whopping 31
> horspower
> A A over the factory GTS system.A It comes as a complete system
> (headers
> A A and mufflers) and costs barely more than the ANSA GTS mufflers
> alone.
> A A It's designed to mimic the appearance of the originals, and does a
> A A fantastic job of it.A The outside diameter of the tips is 1/4
> inch
> A A larger than the original ANSA tips, barely noticeable (3 inches
> versus
> A A 2 3/4 inches).A But the inside diameter of the resonators is 1
> 3/4
> A A inches versus the 1 1/4 inches of the original ANSAs (the new
> ANSAs are
> A A 1 1/2 inches, splitting the difference).
> A A A quarter inch might not sound like such a lot, but don't forget
> the
> A A whole Pi-r-Squared thing.
> A A So, the original GTS muffler tips have an area of 3.92 inches
> each, the
> A A new ANSAs are 4.71 and Wilkinson's are 5.49.A Multiply each of
> those by
> A A two per pipe, and you start to see a significant difference in
> A A potential flow:A 7.84 inches versus 9.42 versus 10.89 inches, per
> A A muffler.
> A A All three have the same inlet pipe size, 2.34 inches; that gives
> an
> A A area of 7.35 inches.
> A A Wilkinson's system was available in either mild steel or stainless
> A A steel, but he told me he doesn't intend to carry them in mild
> steel any
> A A longer.A Personally I like the way mild steel exhausts sound, and
> given
> A A that they are significantly cheaper, I would opt for those if
> possible.
> A A Note that he had the mufflers made to accomodate the one-piece
> L-model
> A A bumper (a mistake, in my view), but he will modify the angle of
> the
> A A tips to replicate the jaunty upward stance of the original ANSA
> A A exhausts for a nominal fee (I think he charges $75 extra).A
> That's a
> A A must for any car that has anything other than a one-piece L rear
> A A bumper.
> A A My car still wears the original ANSA GTS system, but we got one of
> A A Wilkinson's mild steel systems for Lori's car and that will be
> going on
> A A once we get her engine back from Dave McLain....
> A A Mike
>
> _______________________________________________
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> nks above.
> References
> A A 1. mailto:[7]mghibli7 at hotmail.com
> A A 2. [8]http://www.precisionproformance.com/ex1015.php
> A A 3. mailto:[9]DeTomaso at poca.com
> A A 4. [10]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
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> References
>
> 1.
> http://poca.com/pipermail/detomaso_poca.com/2012-December/066634.html
> 2. mailto:willibillie at live.de
> 3. mailto:mghibli7 at hotmail.com
> 4. http://www.precisionproformance.com/ex1015.php
> 5. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> 6. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 7. mailto:mghibli7 at hotmail.com
> 8. http://www.precisionproformance.com/ex1015.php
> 9. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> 10. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 11. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> 12. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
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>
-------------- next part --------------
Dan,
Did you ever run a test with the MindTrain Headers and Exhaust ?
I would be curious how much loss was with those headers.
Thanks,
-dt
On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 11:16 AM, Daniel C Jones
<[1]daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com> wrote:
A A > Question for me is, what was the base HP, Dan Jones got 31 HP
more?
A A Was it a stock engine or a highly modified? How many percent
was it?
A A I've done a number of exhaust tests.AA On the dyno mule 351C
which is
A A around 400 HP, the stock ANSA mufflers lost 50 HP to the
Magnaflows
A A using the same headers.AA the larger diameter aftermarket Euro
GTS
A A mufflers were also tested on a 500 HP 408C and they lost 50 HP
compared
A A to the Magnaflows.AA Later we tested Mike Drew's Mike Drew's
modifed
A A ANSAs (cans gutted and filled with a perforated Y-pipe so no
baffles)
A A and they lost 38 HP on the dyno mule 351C.AA Finally, we
tested the
A A Wilkinson mufflers on a different 408C.AA The details are
summarized
A A here:
A A A
[1][2]http://poca.com/pipermail/detomaso_poca.com/2012-December/0666
34.h
A A tml
A A The relevant passages are below.AA Given their size and
design, the
A A Wilkinson set-up did pretty well compared to even Mike Drew's
gutted
A A mufflers but weren't as good as open pipes or the Magnaflows:
A A "Several exhaust systems were tested with the following results
A A (rounded to the nearest HP):
A A 1. Wilkinson stainless steel Pantera shorty 4-into-1 headers
and
A A exhaust (2 1/4" OD) with stock appearing mufflers:
A A A 552 HP @ 6000 RPM
A A A 518 ft-lbs @ 4500 RPM
A A That's really amazing power to be pushing through shorty
Pantera
A A headers and mufflers with 2 1/4" tail pipes.AA Compare to the
following
A A test and the Wilkinson exhaust is worth 31 HP on this engine
(perhaps
A A more when we test the Funnelweb intake manifold and 950HP
carb).A
A A Given the stainless steel construction, low cost and HP
increase, the
A A Wilkinson exhaust are excellent pieces.
A A 2. ANSA Euro GTS headers and exhaust
A A A 521 HP @ 6000 RPM
A A A 500 ft-lbs @ 4800 RPM
A A These are the better flowing Euro GTS version of the Pantera
ANSA
A A mufflers and matching headers. Down 31 HP and 18 ft-lbs to the
A A Wilkinson version.
A A 3. Mustang long tube headers without exhaust (no mufflers),
A A specifically Hooker Competition headers (part number
HOK-6920HKR) with
A A 1 3/4" diameter by 27" long primaries, 3" diameter by 8" long
collector
A A with 12 inch long collector extensions
A A A 564 HP @ 5900 RPM
A A A 546 ft-lbs @ 4600 RPM
A A 4. The above Hooker Mustang long tube headers with 3"
inlet/outlet
A A Magnaflow stainless steel mufflers.
A A A 555 HP @ 5900 RPM
A A A 535 ft-lbs @ 4800 RPM
A A Only 3 HP peak more than the Wilkinson exhaust but 17 ft-lbs
more peak
A A torque due to the long primary headers.AA Open headers were
worth
A A another 11 HP and 11 ft-lbs so I'd bet a cross-over would be
worth some
A A power when running mufflers.
A A Dan Jones
A A On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 12:57 PM, R.J
<[2][3]willibillie at live.de> wrote:
A A A AA A Question for me is, what was the base HP, Dan Jones
got 31 HP
A A A more? Was
A A A AA A it a stock engine or a highly modified? How many
percent was
A A A it?
A A A AA A Roland
A A A AA A Am 08.02.2015 um 12:07 schrieb Mike Drew via DeTomaso:
A A A AA A In a message dated 2/7/15 21 24 31,
[1][3][4]mghibli7 at hotmail.com
A A A writes:
A A A AA AA AA A I have finally decided to switch back to
normal exhaust
A A A on my
A A A AA AA A Pantera.
A A A AA AA AA AA I will keep the 180's.
A A A AA A >>>Why would you keep them?AA Seems to me you should
either
A A A keep them
A A A AA A and use them, or switch and sell them to fund the
switch?
A A A AA AA A >AA I want something that looks stock, but flows
better.A
A A A My car has
A A A AA AA A been
A A A AA AA AA A through a few stages.AA The one that I
enjoyed the most
A A A was
A A A AA AA A slightly
A A A AA AA AA A modified over stock.AA It is currently in the
A A A too-modified
A A A AA AA A condition.
A A A AA AA AA A It feels like a race car slightly detuned for
the street.
A A A AA AA AA A I've been thinking about GTS headers like
these:
A A A AA AA AA A
[1][2][4][5]http://www.precisionproformance.com/ex1015.php.
A A AA AA AA A Any recommendations on mufflers?AA Do any of the
vendors
A A sell ANSA
A A AA AA A style
A A AA AA AA A mufflers that flow better than stock?
A A AA A >>>All the vendors sell the factory GTS exhaust
system.AA They all
A A AA A source their ANSA GTS mufflers from Hall, who is the
exclusive
A A north
A A AA A American distributor for them, and sell them for about
the same
A A price.
A A AA A The headers are perfect copies of the ANSA originals but
made in
A A the
A A AA A USA.
A A AA A The mufflers are fantastically expensive.AA The original
GTS
A A mufflers
A A AA A are also quite restrictive; Dan Jones dyno tests showed
they
A A knocked a
A A AA A full 50 hp (!) off from an optimized system (Mustang
headers and
A A AA A conventional non-Pantera mufflers) in back-to-back tests.
A A AA A I gutted my GTS mufflers to improve them, and shipped
them to Dan
A A for a
A A AA A back-to-back test with unmodified GTS mufflers and was
sad to
A A learn
A A AA A that I only picked up 12 hp; it wasn't worth the effort
to modify
A A AA A them.AA I concluded that the culprit is the four tips,
whose
A A center
A A AA A holes are not nearly large enough.AA The new-production
mufflers
A A no
A A AA A longer use resonators; they have chrome tips with an
unnecessary
A A AA A restriction inside, but they are at least larger inside
diameter
A A than
A A AA A the old ones were.
A A AA A Wilkinson's copy of the GTS exhaust system is
brilliant.AA Dan
A A AA A dyno-tested them and found that they picked up a whopping
31
A A horspower
A A AA A over the factory GTS system.AA It comes as a complete
system
A A (headers
A A AA A and mufflers) and costs barely more than the ANSA GTS
mufflers
A A alone.
A A AA A It's designed to mimic the appearance of the originals,
and does a
A A AA A fantastic job of it.AA The outside diameter of the tips
is 1/4
A A inch
A A AA A larger than the original ANSA tips, barely noticeable (3
inches
A A versus
A A AA A 2 3/4 inches).AA But the inside diameter of the
resonators is 1
A A 3/4
A A AA A inches versus the 1 1/4 inches of the original ANSAs (the
new
A A ANSAs are
A A AA A 1 1/2 inches, splitting the difference).
A A AA A A quarter inch might not sound like such a lot, but don't
forget
A A the
A A AA A whole Pi-r-Squared thing.
A A AA A So, the original GTS muffler tips have an area of 3.92
inches
A A each, the
A A AA A new ANSAs are 4.71 and Wilkinson's are 5.49.AA Multiply
each of
A A those by
A A AA A two per pipe, and you start to see a significant
difference in
A A AA A potential flow:AA 7.84 inches versus 9.42 versus 10.89
inches, per
A A AA A muffler.
A A AA A All three have the same inlet pipe size, 2.34 inches;
that gives
A A an
A A AA A area of 7.35 inches.
A A AA A Wilkinson's system was available in either mild steel or
stainless
A A AA A steel, but he told me he doesn't intend to carry them in
mild
A A steel any
A A AA A longer.AA Personally I like the way mild steel exhausts
sound, and
A A given
A A AA A that they are significantly cheaper, I would opt for
those if
A A possible.
A A AA A Note that he had the mufflers made to accomodate the
one-piece
A A L-model
A A AA A bumper (a mistake, in my view), but he will modify the
angle of
A A the
A A AA A tips to replicate the jaunty upward stance of the
original ANSA
A A AA A exhausts for a nominal fee (I think he charges $75
extra).A
A A That's a
A A AA A must for any car that has anything other than a one-piece
L rear
A A AA A bumper.
A A AA A My car still wears the original ANSA GTS system, but we
got one of
A A AA A Wilkinson's mild steel systems for Lori's car and that
will be
A A going on
A A AA A once we get her engine back from Dave McLain....
A A AA A Mike
A A A _______________________________________________
A A A Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
A A A Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
A A A DeTomaso mailing list
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A A A To manage your subscription (change email address,
unsubscribe,
A A A etc.) use the li
A A A nks above.
A A A References
A A A AA A 1. mailto:[7][8]mghibli7 at hotmail.com
A A A AA A 2.
[8][9]http://www.precisionproformance.com/ex1015.php
A A A AA A 3. mailto:[9][10]DeTomaso at poca.com
A A A AA A 4.
[10][11]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A A A _______________________________________________
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A A A Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
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unsubscribe,
A A A etc.) use the links above.
References
A A 1.
[14]http://poca.com/pipermail/detomaso_poca.com/2012-December/066634
.html
A A 2. mailto:[15]willibillie at live.de
A A 3. mailto:[16]mghibli7 at hotmail.com
A A 4. [17]http://www.precisionproformance.com/ex1015.php
A A 5. mailto:[18]DeTomaso at poca.com
A A 6. [19]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
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3. mailto:willibillie at live.de
4. mailto:mghibli7 at hotmail.com
5. http://www.precisionproformance.com/ex1015.php
6. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
7. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
8. mailto:mghibli7 at hotmail.com
9. http://www.precisionproformance.com/ex1015.php
10. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
11. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
12. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
13. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
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17. http://www.precisionproformance.com/ex1015.php
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