[DeTomaso] ZF gear oil per Lloyd Butfoy

[Tom Shinrock]

 Larry,

Did you have any inclination that you had a bad pinion gear (i.e. odd noise or something didn't feel right) or was it just by chance you found it when you tore it down to get a new 5th gear?

Just curious if there are symptoms that I can add to my mental repository to reference while driving.

Tom
5186

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Larry Finch via DeTomaso <detomaso at poca.com>
To: detomaso <detomaso at poca.com>
Sent: Mon, Feb 9, 2015 4:43 pm
Subject: [DeTomaso] ZF gear oil per Lloyd Butfoy


All,
   Last week I dropped by Lloyd Butfoy's shop in Anaheim, my first visit
 to his shop.
   My ZF is with him getting a new .620 5th gear set, synchros, at least
   one $$bearing and .... a new $$$$$$$$ 4:22 R&P. Seems after about 80K
   miles on the box, a pinion gear tooth decided to start self destructing
   with a wear-related fatigue issue.
   We spent at least an hour going over my ZF innards and I left with a
   much better understanding of the ZF, and an increased appreciation of
   Lloyd as a professional.
   We also spent some time discussing ZF gear oil and I'd like to share
   what he told me.
   He told me his website FAQ that called for GL4 and cautioned against
   using GL5 was in fact not written by him.
   He confirmed our ZF is a spiral bevel style ring and pinion, not a
   hypoid style R&P.
   He does NOT refill repaired transaxles upon their return to the owners.
   Just the lube used for assembly.
   He feels Redline products are too slippery for proper ZF operation.
   NOTE: His opinion.
   With the exception of some needle bearing cages, there are no yellow
   metals in our ZF. Lloyd has never seen any yellow metal damage in any
   ZF, something that in theory may occur with some of the additives found
   in GL5 products.
   Other vendors have at times tooled and produced ZF parts. As Lloyd has
   all the original ZF design and tooling rights, he honestly believes
   such attempts by other vendors all fall short of what is truly needed
   in regards to quality.
   The brass synchro rings offered by some vendors are sourced from a
   non-ZF application. While they appear to correctly match the genuine
   steel ZF synchos, in actual use they quickly fail. He cited a
   well-known individual who campaigns a track-dedicated Pantera who was
   destroying brass synchros in a matter of months. Of course racing
   provides increased wear and tear, but steel synchros never exhibit such
   accelerated wear. Lloyd feels the different heat-expansion properties
   of steel versus brass may account for the fast wear issue.
   As for the $54,000 question - proper gear oil?
   His words, more or less:
   "If all the time everyone spends on discussing the proper gear oil was
   instead spent with an annual change of oil, GL4 or GL5, then it really
   wouldn't matter what type or brand of oil was used."
   Beyond those guidelines, Lloyd had no stated favorite oil. He said the
   controlled testing required to select the "best" oil is never going to
   happen, so he feels it is a personal choice. If it works for the
   owner's needs, that is good enough.
   In summary:
   Good ZF care = any quality GL4 or GL5 changed annually
   So, is this the final word on what ZF gear oil to use?
   Probably not.
   But it is what Lloyd said, and that's good enough for me.
   Larry

 
_______________________________________________

Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
DeTomaso mailing list
DeTomaso at poca.com
http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com

To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the links above.

 
-------------- next part --------------
   Larry,
   Did you have any inclination that you had a bad pinion gear (i.e. odd
   noise or something didn't feel right) or was it just by chance you
   found it when you tore it down to get a new 5th gear?
   Just curious if there are symptoms that I can add to my mental
   repository to reference while driving.
   Tom
   5186

   -----Original Message-----
   From: Larry Finch via DeTomaso <detomaso at poca.com>
   To: detomaso <detomaso at poca.com>
   Sent: Mon, Feb 9, 2015 4:43 pm
   Subject: [DeTomaso] ZF gear oil per Lloyd Butfoy
All,
   Last week I dropped by Lloyd Butfoy's shop in Anaheim, my first visit
 to his shop.
   My ZF is with him getting a new .620 5th gear set, synchros, at least
   one $$bearing and .... a new $$$$$$$$ 4:22 R&P. Seems after about 80K
   miles on the box, a pinion gear tooth decided to start self destructing
   with a wear-related fatigue issue.
   We spent at least an hour going over my ZF innards and I left with a
   much better understanding of the ZF, and an increased appreciation of
   Lloyd as a professional.
   We also spent some time discussing ZF gear oil and I'd like to share
   what he told me.
   He told me his website FAQ that called for GL4 and cautioned against
   using GL5 was in fact not written by him.
   He confirmed our ZF is a spiral bevel style ring and pinion, not a
   hypoid style R&P.
   He does NOT refill repaired transaxles upon their return to the owners.
   Just the lube used for assembly.
   He feels Redline products are too slippery for proper ZF operation.
   NOTE: His opinion.
   With the exception of some needle bearing cages, there are no yellow
   metals in our ZF. Lloyd has never seen any yellow metal damage in any
   ZF, something that in theory may occur with some of the additives found
   in GL5 products.
   Other vendors have at times tooled and produced ZF parts. As Lloyd has
   all the original ZF design and tooling rights, he honestly believes
   such attempts by other vendors all fall short of what is truly needed
   in regards to quality.
   The brass synchro rings offered by some vendors are sourced from a
   non-ZF application. While they appear to correctly match the genuine
   steel ZF synchos, in actual use they quickly fail. He cited a
   well-known individual who campaigns a track-dedicated Pantera who was
   destroying brass synchros in a matter of months. Of course racing
   provides increased wear and tear, but steel synchros never exhibit such
   accelerated wear. Lloyd feels the different heat-expansion properties
   of steel versus brass may account for the fast wear issue.
   As for the $54,000 question - proper gear oil?
   His words, more or less:
   "If all the time everyone spends on discussing the proper gear oil was
   instead spent with an annual change of oil, GL4 or GL5, then it really
   wouldn't matter what type or brand of oil was used."
   Beyond those guidelines, Lloyd had no stated favorite oil. He said the
   controlled testing required to select the "best" oil is never going to
   happen, so he feels it is a personal choice. If it works for the
   owner's needs, that is good enough.
   In summary:
   Good ZF care = any quality GL4 or GL5 changed annually
   So, is this the final word on what ZF gear oil to use?
   Probably not.
   But it is what Lloyd said, and that's good enough for me.
   Larry

_______________________________________________

Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
DeTomaso mailing list
[1]DeTomaso at poca.com
[2]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com

To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use the li
nks above.

References

   1. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
   2. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com