[DeTomaso] FW: Should we purchase vintage cars for our investment portfolio?
Rob Dumoulin
rob at dumoulins.net
Wed Aug 19 07:28:59 EDT 2015
Jordan, Bravo! This post should be published in the POCA Profiles to make
sure it has longevity. I suspect the topic will be relevant for many years
to come.
Rob DuMoulin
904.476.8744
rob at dumoulins.net
www.kbsi.co
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/rob-dumoulin/0/1b6/58
On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 8:43 AM, Jordan Klein <ohjordan at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Regarding the Bloomberg article titled "Why A Classic Car Is (Almost)
> Never A Good Investment"
> Warning: Editorial
> The following is just my opinion.
> I first noticed the article was 'written' by a generic team called
> "Bloomberg News" which probably means several wordsmiths got assigned
> the topic. Interpretation: NOT car people. Writers baffled by the
> complexities of the collector car world.
> Unfortunately, the article fails to ask the most fundamental question:
> What creates enthusiast value in the collector car market?
> Failing to explore this question leaves these 'authors' assuming the
> game can't be understood; therefore collector cars depreciate and are
> "(almost)" always a bad investments.
> Well, it should be obvious even to the couch potato watching Mecum on
> TV; not all cars are a bad investments, as some cars are now worth
> millions, so somebody made some $Bank$ and did alright.
> It would have been helpful had the authors explored the difference
> between nostalgia, historical, enthusiast, cult, legend, rare, and
> bluechip cars. So yeah, these authors shouldn't consider classic car
> ownership as an appreciating investment. They simply don't understand
> what they're writing about.
> Let me explain;
> Nostalgia cars rarely have value except for the person who holds the
> memory. Perhaps it's just like dad's car, or it's just like the car in
> the poster, or the one on his first date, etc. With perhaps rare
> exceptions, these types of nostalgia cars should not be considered
> collector cars.
> Historical cars, also known as vintage cars, or perceived as milestone
> car; all contributed in some significant way to the craft of automobile
> engineering and/or design. Examples span the range from the Curved
> Dash Olds, the Model T, the supercharged Cord, the guilded-age
> Duesenbergs, the rear-engined Tucker, to the maverick advertising
> genius of John DeLorean and his GTO, the Zora Arkus-Dontov Air Box
> Corvettes, or the ourtrageously beautiful 1949 Delahaye 175 S Saoutchik
> Roadster. These cars tend to be museum cars and show cars, and can be
> worth millions.
> Enthusiast cars have fetish appeal; like the fin cars of the late 50s,
> the bubble-tops, and the go-fast muscle cars like the 442, the GTO, the
> Yenko 427, the 455SD or GTO Ram Air IV cars, and Hemi cars, winged
> cars, and homologated race cars for the street. Enthusiasts value
> style AND function; therefore value is proportional to the thrill of
> owning, showing, driving and being seen and admired. I think Panteras
> are quickly becoming A to B grade enthusiast collector cars.
> Cult cars can have significant value, but generally only to those
> absorbed in that particular cult. Examples include movIe cars like the
> 'Bullet' Mustang, the Eleanor Mustang, to George Barris customs, or
> even the Sonny & Cher customized Mustangs. Some might argue the Shelby
> Mustang is yesterday's cult car, since young kids are suddenly all into
> Vaughn Gittin's Mustang RTR. So be forewarned; cult cars tend to flash
> hot then fall out of favor, replaced by next months hot new trendy fad
> of the moment. The value if these cars can sometimes be like trying to
> catch a falling sword.
> Legend cars, sometimes called Pedigree cars or "provenance" cars can
> also have significant value; like Carroll Shelby's personal
> twin-supercharged Cobra, or the LeMans winning GT40 driven to victory
> by Dan Gurney & AJ Foyt, or the custom factory pink 59 Pontiac
> Bonneville convertible ordered by Harley Earl for his wife. This
> category should probably include one-off factory styling exercises and
> the Autorama show cars. It's not so much as the car, it's the fact
> there's only one.
> Legendary Pantera's might include Alejandro DeTomaso's personal
> Pantera, the Elvis 'bullet hole' Pantera, the one-off notched flying
> buttress Pantera, Tom Tjaarda's styling exercise Pantera, and for
> morbid curiosity, the wrecked Panteras of Moetley Cruee's Vince Neil or
> Toronto Maple Leaf's Tim Horton. The value of these cars is
> proportional to the intrigue of the fabled owner, and the thoroughness
> of the paperwork to prove pedigree or provenance.
> Rare cars have value simply because of supply vs. demand. Since
> Plymouth only built 11-1971 Hemi Cuda Convertibles, these cars are
> prized more by collectors than there are cars. Competition for
> ownership
> sets value, often much higher than the price to build a visually and
> mechanically identical "tribute" car.
> So what makes a truly "Blue Chip" collectible? Competition for
> ownership! It takes more than one interested buyer to drive
> price. Buyer motivations are unique and often unknowable; but whatever
> their motivation, the more interest, the more bidders driving bid
> competition that determines sale price.
> Discerning collector car 'investors' are not ignorant of these
> motivations, and exploit opportunities to capitalize within the
> hobby. They often do quite well. For example, Dana Mecum has done all
> right for himself and contributed significantly to the hobby. Of
> course there are many others...
> The increasing value of Pantera's is directly proportional to:
> #1) the quality and frequency of public exposure creating new
> enthusiasts with favorable and admiring perceptions and memories,
> #2) the exceptional support we enjoy from the numerous quality vendors,
> club publications, and chapter tech sessions; that helps keep or cars
> running and looking gorgeous,
> #3) the camaraderie enjoyed by club membership, forming lasting
> friendships over common interests. This includes the enthusiasm and
> creativity exhibited by chapter leaders to those who diligently produce
> informative articles online and in print.
> #4) and finally, we all benefit by having club members who are also
> seriously gifted automotive and aerospace engineers; who's skills
> significantly contribute to design understanding and refinements far
> beyond the capabilities of the amateur enthusiast.
> For these reasons, I think we should expect the DeTomaso mark to
> continue increasing in value as we as a car club promote the
> desirability and camaraderie of ownership. Currently, $70k seems to be
> fair market value for an average to clean and attractive Pantera; $100k
> plus for an exceptional example. Look at the prices of a Boss 302
> Mustangs, or one of my favorites --the Intermeccanica Italia. When
> compared to other collectables, current Pantera valuations may still be
> on the affordable side of the market. After all, a new Corvette is
> $80k on up, I even looked at a $55k pick-up truck last week! Then I
> realized, the Pantera hasn't inflated in value, it's our money that's
> lost value.
> Without considering monetary devaluation or future value projections,
> the Pantera has been a good investment, i.e., it's kept its value on
> par with modern sporty type cars, plus I get to drive it, admire it,
> and wrench on it. In simple math, it's value is about 3 to 4 times
> what I paid for it, minus the cost of insurance, tags, replacement
> parts, oil change, etc. It may be stylish artwork, but it's more than
> a picture hanging on a wall. So with these factors in mind, what other
> car might provide even a fraction of the enjoyment while maintaining
> good value. That's a question the article's authors couldn't even
> fathom. From that perspective, the Pantera is one of the best
> automotive value investments available to the common man.
> Before I bought my Pantera, I was also looking for a Dino 246 Spyder,
> as they were about the same price way back then. Today, the 246 is
> easily worth double the Pantera. But if you consider the cost of
> ownership, i.e., service & parts, I still think the Pantera is a better
> investment.
> Jordan Klein
> 7314
> PS: Obviously not intended to be a comprehensive dissertation. Just
> rambling thoughts about the collector car hobby and valuations.
> > To: DeTomaso at poca.com
> > From: jtaphorn at kingwoodcable.com
> > Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 18:03:21 -0500
> > Subject: [DeTomaso] Should we purchase vintage cars for our
> investment portfolio?
> >
> > This Bloomberg story greeted me at my office this morning. Here is
> one
> > person's opinion on vintage cars as an investment. Would you agree?
> >
> >
> http://www.fa-mag.com/news/why-a-classic-car-is--almost--never-a-good-i
> nvestment-22791.html?utm_source=PW+Subscribers&utm_campaign=f7ee052d6d-
> PWN_PW+News_081715&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_1899ce8517-f7ee052d6d-23
> 2404493
> >
> > JT
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> > Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> > Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> > DeTomaso mailing list
> > DeTomaso at poca.com
> > http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >
> > To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
> use the links above.
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at poca.com
> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>
> To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.) use
> the links above.
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
Jordan, A Bravo!A This post should be published in the POCA Profiles
to make sure it has longevity. I suspect the topic will be relevant for
many years to come.
Rob DuMoulin
904.476.8744
[1]rob at dumoulins.net
[2]www.kbsi.co
[3]http://www.linkedin.com/pub/rob-dumoulin/0/1b6/58
On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 8:43 AM, Jordan Klein <[4]ohjordan at hotmail.com>
wrote:
A A Regarding the Bloomberg article titled "Why A Classic Car Is
(Almost)
A A Never A Good Investment"
A A Warning: Editorial
A A The following is just my opinion.
A A I first noticed the article was 'written' byA a generic team
called
A A "Bloomberg News" which probably means several wordsmiths got
assigned
A A the topic.A Interpretation: NOT car people.A Writers baffled
by the
A A complexities of the collector car world.
A A Unfortunately, the article fails to ask the most fundamental
question:
A A What creates enthusiast value in the collector car market?
A A Failing to explore this question leaves these 'authors'
assuming the
A A game can't be understood; therefore collector cars depreciate
and are
A A "(almost)" always a bad investments.
A A Well, it should be obvious even to the couch potato watching
Mecum on
A A TV; not all cars are a bad investments, as some cars are now
worth
A A millions, so somebody made some $Bank$ and did alright.
A A It would have been helpful had the authors explored the
difference
A A between nostalgia, historical, enthusiast, cult, legend, rare,
and
A A bluechip cars.A So yeah, these authors shouldn't consider
classic car
A A ownership as an appreciating investment.A They simply don't
understand
A A what they're writing about.
A A Let me explain;
A A Nostalgia cars rarely have value except for the person who
holds the
A A memory.A Perhaps it's just like dad's car, or it's just like
the car in
A A the poster, or the one on his first date, etc.A With perhaps
rare
A A exceptions, these types of nostalgia cars should not be
considered
A A collector cars.
A A Historical cars, also known as vintage cars, or perceived as
milestone
A A car; all contributed in some significant way to the craft of
automobile
A A engineering and/or design.A Examples span the range from the
Curved
A A Dash Olds, the Model T, the supercharged Cord, the guilded-age
A A Duesenbergs, the rear-engined Tucker, to the maverick
advertising
A A genius of John DeLorean and his GTO, the Zora Arkus-Dontov Air
Box
A A Corvettes, or the ourtrageously beautiful 1949 Delahaye 175 S
Saoutchik
A A Roadster.A These cars tend to be museum cars and show cars,
and can be
A A worth millions.
A A Enthusiast cars have fetish appeal; like the fin cars of the
late 50s,
A A the bubble-tops, and the go-fast muscle cars like the 442, the
GTO, the
A A Yenko 427, the 455SD or GTO Ram Air IV cars, and Hemi cars,
winged
A A cars, and homologated race cars for the street.A Enthusiasts
value
A A style AND function; therefore value is proportional to the
thrill of
A A owning, showing, driving and being seen and admired.A I think
Panteras
A A are quickly becoming A to B grade enthusiast collector cars.
A A Cult cars can have significant value, but generally only to
those
A A absorbed in that particular cult.A Examples include movIe cars
like the
A A 'Bullet' Mustang, the Eleanor Mustang, to George Barris
customs, or
A A even the Sonny & Cher customized Mustangs.A Some might argue
the Shelby
A A Mustang is yesterday's cult car, since young kids are suddenly
all into
A A Vaughn Gittin's Mustang RTR.A So be forewarned; cult cars tend
to flash
A A hot then fall out of favor, replaced by next months hot new
trendy fad
A A of the moment.A The value if these cars can sometimes be like
trying to
A A catch a falling sword.
A A Legend cars, sometimes called Pedigree cars or "provenance"
cars can
A A also have significant value; like Carroll Shelby's personal
A A twin-supercharged Cobra, or the LeMans winning GT40 driven to
victory
A A by Dan Gurney & AJ Foyt, or the custom factory pink 59 Pontiac
A A Bonneville convertible ordered by Harley Earl for his wife.A
This
A A category should probably include one-off factory styling
exercises and
A A the Autorama show cars.A It's not so much as the car, it's the
fact
A A there's only one.
A A Legendary Pantera's might include Alejandro DeTomaso's personal
A A Pantera, the Elvis 'bullet hole' Pantera, the one-off notched
flying
A A buttress Pantera, Tom Tjaarda's styling exercise Pantera, and
for
A A morbid curiosity, the wrecked Panteras of Moetley Cruee's Vince
Neil or
A A Toronto Maple Leaf's Tim Horton.A The value of these cars is
A A proportional to the intrigue of the fabled owner, and the
thoroughness
A A of the paperwork to prove pedigree or provenance.
A A Rare cars have value simply because of supply vs. demand.A
Since
A A Plymouth only built 11-1971 Hemi Cuda Convertibles, these cars
are
A A prized more by collectors than there are cars.A Competition
for
A A ownership
A A sets value, often much higher than the price to build a
visually and
A A mechanically identical "tribute" car.
A A So what makes a truly "Blue Chip" collectible?A Competition
for
A A ownership!A It takes more than one interested buyer to drive
A A price.A Buyer motivations are unique and often unknowable; but
whatever
A A their motivation, the more interest, the more bidders driving
bid
A A competition that determines sale price.
A A Discerning collector car 'investors' are not ignorant of these
A A motivations, and exploit opportunities to capitalize within the
A A hobby.A They often do quite well.A For example, Dana Mecum
has done all
A A right for himself and contributed significantly to the hobby.A
Of
A A course there are many others...
A A The increasing value of Pantera's is directly proportional to:
A A #1) the quality and frequency of public exposure creating new
A A enthusiasts with favorable and admiring perceptions and
memories,
A A #2) the exceptional support we enjoy from the numerous quality
vendors,
A A club publications, and chapter tech sessions; that helps keep
or cars
A A running and looking gorgeous,
A A #3) the camaraderie enjoyed by club membership, forming lasting
A A friendships over common interests.A This includes the
enthusiasm and
A A creativity exhibited by chapter leaders to those who diligently
produce
A A informative articles online and in print.
A A #4) and finally, we all benefit by having club members who are
also
A A seriously gifted automotive and aerospace engineers; who's
skills
A A significantly contribute to design understanding and
refinements far
A A beyond the capabilities of the amateur enthusiast.
A A For these reasons, I think we should expect the DeTomaso mark
to
A A continue increasing in value as we as a car club promote the
A A desirability and camaraderie of ownership.A Currently, $70k
seems to be
A A fair market value for an average to clean and attractive
Pantera; $100k
A A plus for an exceptional example.A Look at the prices of a Boss
302
A A Mustangs, or one of my favorites --the Intermeccanica Italia.A
When
A A compared to other collectables, current Pantera valuations may
still be
A A on the affordable side of the market.A After all, a new
Corvette is
A A $80k on up, I even looked at a $55k pick-up truck last week!A
Then I
A A realized, the Pantera hasn't inflated in value, it's our money
that's
A A lost value.
A A Without considering monetary devaluation or future value
projections,
A A the Pantera has been a good investment, i.e., it's kept its
value on
A A par with modern sporty type cars, plus I get to drive it,
admire it,
A A and wrench on it.A In simple math, it's value is about 3 to 4
times
A A what I paid for it, minus the cost of insurance, tags,
replacement
A A parts, oil change, etc.A It may be stylish artwork, but it's
more than
A A a picture hanging on a wall.A So with these factors in mind,
what other
A A car might provide even a fraction of the enjoyment while
maintaining
A A good value.A That's a question the article's authors couldn't
even
A A fathom.A From that perspective, the Pantera is one of the best
A A automotive value investments available to the common man.
A A Before I bought my Pantera, I was also looking for a Dino 246
Spyder,
A A as they were about the same price way back then.A Today, the
246 is
A A easily worth double the Pantera.A But if you consider the cost
of
A A ownership, i.e., service & parts, I still think the Pantera is
a better
A A investment.
A A Jordan Klein
A A 7314
A A PS: Obviously not intended to be a comprehensive
dissertation.A Just
A A rambling thoughts about the collector car hobby and valuations.
A A > To: [5]DeTomaso at poca.com
A A > From: [6]jtaphorn at kingwoodcable.com
A A > Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 18:03:21 -0500
A A > Subject: [DeTomaso] Should we purchase vintage cars for our
A A investment portfolio?
A A >
A A > This Bloomberg story greeted me at my office this morning.
Here is
A A one
A A > person's opinion on vintage cars as an investment. Would you
agree?
A A >
A A >
A
A [7]http://www.fa-mag.com/news/why-a-classic-car-is--almost--never-
a-good-i
A
A nvestment-22791.html?utm_source=PW+Subscribers&utm_campaign=f7ee05
2d6d-
A
A PWN_PW+News_081715&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_1899ce8517-f7ee052d
6d-23
A A 2404493
A A >
A A > JT
A A >
A A > _______________________________________________
A A >
A A > Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
A A > Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
A A > DeTomaso mailing list
A A > [8]DeTomaso at poca.com
A A > [9]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A A >
A A > To manage your subscription (change email address,
unsubscribe, etc.)
A A use the links above.
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
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[11]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
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References
1. mailto:rob at dumoulins.net
2. http://www.kbsi.co/
3. http://www.linkedin.com/pub/rob-dumoulin/0/1b6/58
4. mailto:ohjordan at hotmail.com
5. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
6. mailto:jtaphorn at kingwoodcable.com
7. http://www.fa-mag.com/news/why-a-classic-car-is--almost--never-a-good-i
8. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
9. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
10. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
11. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
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