[DeTomaso] FW: Should we purchase vintage cars for our investment portfolio?

B Hower b.hower3400 at yahoo.com
Tue Aug 18 09:15:30 EDT 2015


Thank you Jordon,
I enjoyed your post greatly. Well stated in IMHO.
Bud #3400 ( Drive it like there is no tomorrow -- for there may not be ! )
      From: Jordan Klein <ohjordan at hotmail.com>
 To: detomaso at poca.com 
 Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2015 7:43 AM
 Subject: [DeTomaso] FW: Should we purchase vintage cars for our investment portfolio?
   
  Regarding the Bloomberg article titled "Why A Classic Car Is (Almost)
  Never A Good Investment"
  Warning: Editorial
  The following is just my opinion.
  I first noticed the article was 'written' by  a generic team called
  "Bloomberg News" which probably means several wordsmiths got assigned
  the topic.  Interpretation: NOT car people.  Writers baffled by the
  complexities of the collector car world.
  Unfortunately, the article fails to ask the most fundamental question:
  What creates enthusiast value in the collector car market?
  Failing to explore this question leaves these 'authors' assuming the
  game can't be understood; therefore collector cars depreciate and are
  "(almost)" always a bad investments.
  Well, it should be obvious even to the couch potato watching Mecum on
  TV; not all cars are a bad investments, as some cars are now worth
  millions, so somebody made some $Bank$ and did alright.
  It would have been helpful had the authors explored the difference
  between nostalgia, historical, enthusiast, cult, legend, rare, and
  bluechip cars.  So yeah, these authors shouldn't consider classic car
  ownership as an appreciating investment.  They simply don't understand
  what they're writing about.
  Let me explain;
  Nostalgia cars rarely have value except for the person who holds the
  memory.  Perhaps it's just like dad's car, or it's just like the car in
  the poster, or the one on his first date, etc.  With perhaps rare
  exceptions, these types of nostalgia cars should not be considered
  collector cars.
  Historical cars, also known as vintage cars, or perceived as milestone
  car; all contributed in some significant way to the craft of automobile
  engineering and/or design.  Examples span the range from the Curved
  Dash Olds, the Model T, the supercharged Cord, the guilded-age
  Duesenbergs, the rear-engined Tucker, to the maverick advertising
  genius of John DeLorean and his GTO, the Zora Arkus-Dontov Air Box
  Corvettes, or the ourtrageously beautiful 1949 Delahaye 175 S Saoutchik
  Roadster.  These cars tend to be museum cars and show cars, and can be
  worth millions.
  Enthusiast cars have fetish appeal; like the fin cars of the late 50s,
  the bubble-tops, and the go-fast muscle cars like the 442, the GTO, the
  Yenko 427, the 455SD or GTO Ram Air IV cars, and Hemi cars, winged
  cars, and homologated race cars for the street.  Enthusiasts value
  style AND function; therefore value is proportional to the thrill of
  owning, showing, driving and being seen and admired.  I think Panteras
  are quickly becoming A to B grade enthusiast collector cars.
  Cult cars can have significant value, but generally only to those
  absorbed in that particular cult.  Examples include movIe cars like the
  'Bullet' Mustang, the Eleanor Mustang, to George Barris customs, or
  even the Sonny & Cher customized Mustangs.  Some might argue the Shelby
  Mustang is yesterday's cult car, since young kids are suddenly all into
  Vaughn Gittin's Mustang RTR.  So be forewarned; cult cars tend to flash
  hot then fall out of favor, replaced by next months hot new trendy fad
  of the moment.  The value if these cars can sometimes be like trying to
  catch a falling sword.
  Legend cars, sometimes called Pedigree cars or "provenance" cars can
  also have significant value; like Carroll Shelby's personal
  twin-supercharged Cobra, or the LeMans winning GT40 driven to victory
  by Dan Gurney & AJ Foyt, or the custom factory pink 59 Pontiac
  Bonneville convertible ordered by Harley Earl for his wife.  This
  category should probably include one-off factory styling exercises and
  the Autorama show cars.  It's not so much as the car, it's the fact
  there's only one.
  Legendary Pantera's might include Alejandro DeTomaso's personal
  Pantera, the Elvis 'bullet hole' Pantera, the one-off notched flying
  buttress Pantera, Tom Tjaarda's styling exercise Pantera, and for
  morbid curiosity, the wrecked Panteras of Moetley Cruee's Vince Neil or
  Toronto Maple Leaf's Tim Horton.  The value of these cars is
  proportional to the intrigue of the fabled owner, and the thoroughness
  of the paperwork to prove pedigree or provenance.
  Rare cars have value simply because of supply vs. demand.  Since
  Plymouth only built 11-1971 Hemi Cuda Convertibles, these cars are
  prized more by collectors than there are cars.  Competition for
  ownership
  sets value, often much higher than the price to build a visually and
  mechanically identical "tribute" car.
  So what makes a truly "Blue Chip" collectible?  Competition for
  ownership!  It takes more than one interested buyer to drive
  price.  Buyer motivations are unique and often unknowable; but whatever
  their motivation, the more interest, the more bidders driving bid
  competition that determines sale price.
  Discerning collector car 'investors' are not ignorant of these
  motivations, and exploit opportunities to capitalize within the
  hobby.  They often do quite well.  For example, Dana Mecum has done all
  right for himself and contributed significantly to the hobby.  Of
  course there are many others...
  The increasing value of Pantera's is directly proportional to:
  #1) the quality and frequency of public exposure creating new
  enthusiasts with favorable and admiring perceptions and memories,
  #2) the exceptional support we enjoy from the numerous quality vendors,
  club publications, and chapter tech sessions; that helps keep or cars
  running and looking gorgeous,
  #3) the camaraderie enjoyed by club membership, forming lasting
  friendships over common interests.  This includes the enthusiasm and
  creativity exhibited by chapter leaders to those who diligently produce
  informative articles online and in print.
  #4) and finally, we all benefit by having club members who are also
  seriously gifted automotive and aerospace engineers; who's skills
  significantly contribute to design understanding and refinements far
  beyond the capabilities of the amateur enthusiast.
  For these reasons, I think we should expect the DeTomaso mark to
  continue increasing in value as we as a car club promote the
  desirability and camaraderie of ownership.  Currently, $70k seems to be
  fair market value for an average to clean and attractive Pantera; $100k
  plus for an exceptional example.  Look at the prices of a Boss 302
  Mustangs, or one of my favorites --the Intermeccanica Italia.  When
  compared to other collectables, current Pantera valuations may still be
  on the affordable side of the market.  After all, a new Corvette is
  $80k on up, I even looked at a $55k pick-up truck last week!  Then I
  realized, the Pantera hasn't inflated in value, it's our money that's
  lost value.
  Without considering monetary devaluation or future value projections,
  the Pantera has been a good investment, i.e., it's kept its value on
  par with modern sporty type cars, plus I get to drive it, admire it,
  and wrench on it.  In simple math, it's value is about 3 to 4 times
  what I paid for it, minus the cost of insurance, tags, replacement
  parts, oil change, etc.  It may be stylish artwork, but it's more than
  a picture hanging on a wall.  So with these factors in mind, what other
  car might provide even a fraction of the enjoyment while maintaining
  good value.  That's a question the article's authors couldn't even
  fathom.  From that perspective, the Pantera is one of the best
  automotive value investments available to the common man.
  Before I bought my Pantera, I was also looking for a Dino 246 Spyder,
  as they were about the same price way back then.  Today, the 246 is
  easily worth double the Pantera.  But if you consider the cost of
  ownership, i.e., service & parts, I still think the Pantera is a better
  investment.
  Jordan Klein
  7314
  PS: Obviously not intended to be a comprehensive dissertation.  Just
  rambling thoughts about the collector car hobby and valuations.
  > To: DeTomaso at poca.com
  > From: jtaphorn at kingwoodcable.com
  > Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 18:03:21 -0500
  > Subject: [DeTomaso] Should we purchase vintage cars for our
  investment portfolio?
  >
  > This Bloomberg story greeted me at my office this morning. Here is
  one
  > person's opinion on vintage cars as an investment. Would you agree?
  >
  >
  http://www.fa-mag.com/news/why-a-classic-car-is--almost--never-a-good-i
  nvestment-22791.html?utm_source=PW+Subscribers&utm_campaign=f7ee052d6d-
  PWN_PW+News_081715&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_1899ce8517-f7ee052d6d-23
  2404493
  >
  > JT
  >
  > _______________________________________________
  >
  > Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
  > Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
  > DeTomaso mailing list
  > DeTomaso at poca.com
  > http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
  >
  > To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
  use the links above.

_______________________________________________

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-------------- next part --------------
   Thank you Jordon,
   I enjoyed your post greatly. Well stated in IMHO.
   Bud #3400 ( Drive it like there is no tomorrow -- for there may not be
   ! )
     __________________________________________________________________

   From: Jordan Klein <ohjordan at hotmail.com>
   To: detomaso at poca.com
   Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2015 7:43 AM
   Subject: [DeTomaso] FW: Should we purchase vintage cars for our
   investment portfolio?
     Regarding the Bloomberg article titled "Why A Classic Car Is (Almost)
     Never A Good Investment"
     Warning: Editorial
     The following is just my opinion.
     I first noticed the article was 'written' by  a generic team called
     "Bloomberg News" which probably means several wordsmiths got assigned
     the topic.  Interpretation: NOT car people.  Writers baffled by the
     complexities of the collector car world.
     Unfortunately, the article fails to ask the most fundamental
   question:
     What creates enthusiast value in the collector car market?
     Failing to explore this question leaves these 'authors' assuming the
     game can't be understood; therefore collector cars depreciate and are
     "(almost)" always a bad investments.
     Well, it should be obvious even to the couch potato watching Mecum on
     TV; not all cars are a bad investments, as some cars are now worth
     millions, so somebody made some $Bank$ and did alright.
     It would have been helpful had the authors explored the difference
     between nostalgia, historical, enthusiast, cult, legend, rare, and
     bluechip cars.  So yeah, these authors shouldn't consider classic car
     ownership as an appreciating investment.  They simply don't
   understand
     what they're writing about.
     Let me explain;
     Nostalgia cars rarely have value except for the person who holds the
     memory.  Perhaps it's just like dad's car, or it's just like the car
   in
     the poster, or the one on his first date, etc.  With perhaps rare
     exceptions, these types of nostalgia cars should not be considered
     collector cars.
     Historical cars, also known as vintage cars, or perceived as
   milestone
     car; all contributed in some significant way to the craft of
   automobile
     engineering and/or design.  Examples span the range from the Curved
     Dash Olds, the Model T, the supercharged Cord, the guilded-age
     Duesenbergs, the rear-engined Tucker, to the maverick advertising
     genius of John DeLorean and his GTO, the Zora Arkus-Dontov Air Box
     Corvettes, or the ourtrageously beautiful 1949 Delahaye 175 S
   Saoutchik
     Roadster.  These cars tend to be museum cars and show cars, and can
   be
     worth millions.
     Enthusiast cars have fetish appeal; like the fin cars of the late
   50s,
     the bubble-tops, and the go-fast muscle cars like the 442, the GTO,
   the
     Yenko 427, the 455SD or GTO Ram Air IV cars, and Hemi cars, winged
     cars, and homologated race cars for the street.  Enthusiasts value
     style AND function; therefore value is proportional to the thrill of
     owning, showing, driving and being seen and admired.  I think
   Panteras
     are quickly becoming A to B grade enthusiast collector cars.
     Cult cars can have significant value, but generally only to those
     absorbed in that particular cult.  Examples include movIe cars like
   the
     'Bullet' Mustang, the Eleanor Mustang, to George Barris customs, or
     even the Sonny & Cher customized Mustangs.  Some might argue the
   Shelby
     Mustang is yesterday's cult car, since young kids are suddenly all
   into
     Vaughn Gittin's Mustang RTR.  So be forewarned; cult cars tend to
   flash
     hot then fall out of favor, replaced by next months hot new trendy
   fad
     of the moment.  The value if these cars can sometimes be like trying
   to
     catch a falling sword.
     Legend cars, sometimes called Pedigree cars or "provenance" cars can
     also have significant value; like Carroll Shelby's personal
     twin-supercharged Cobra, or the LeMans winning GT40 driven to victory
     by Dan Gurney & AJ Foyt, or the custom factory pink 59 Pontiac
     Bonneville convertible ordered by Harley Earl for his wife.  This
     category should probably include one-off factory styling exercises
   and
     the Autorama show cars.  It's not so much as the car, it's the fact
     there's only one.
     Legendary Pantera's might include Alejandro DeTomaso's personal
     Pantera, the Elvis 'bullet hole' Pantera, the one-off notched flying
     buttress Pantera, Tom Tjaarda's styling exercise Pantera, and for
     morbid curiosity, the wrecked Panteras of Moetley Cruee's Vince Neil
   or
     Toronto Maple Leaf's Tim Horton.  The value of these cars is
     proportional to the intrigue of the fabled owner, and the
   thoroughness
     of the paperwork to prove pedigree or provenance.
     Rare cars have value simply because of supply vs. demand.  Since
     Plymouth only built 11-1971 Hemi Cuda Convertibles, these cars are
     prized more by collectors than there are cars.  Competition for
     ownership
     sets value, often much higher than the price to build a visually and
     mechanically identical "tribute" car.
     So what makes a truly "Blue Chip" collectible?  Competition for
     ownership!  It takes more than one interested buyer to drive
     price.  Buyer motivations are unique and often unknowable; but
   whatever
     their motivation, the more interest, the more bidders driving bid
     competition that determines sale price.
     Discerning collector car 'investors' are not ignorant of these
     motivations, and exploit opportunities to capitalize within the
     hobby.  They often do quite well.  For example, Dana Mecum has done
   all
     right for himself and contributed significantly to the hobby.  Of
     course there are many others...
     The increasing value of Pantera's is directly proportional to:
     #1) the quality and frequency of public exposure creating new
     enthusiasts with favorable and admiring perceptions and memories,
     #2) the exceptional support we enjoy from the numerous quality
   vendors,
     club publications, and chapter tech sessions; that helps keep or cars
     running and looking gorgeous,
     #3) the camaraderie enjoyed by club membership, forming lasting
     friendships over common interests.  This includes the enthusiasm and
     creativity exhibited by chapter leaders to those who diligently
   produce
     informative articles online and in print.
     #4) and finally, we all benefit by having club members who are also
     seriously gifted automotive and aerospace engineers; who's skills
     significantly contribute to design understanding and refinements far
     beyond the capabilities of the amateur enthusiast.
     For these reasons, I think we should expect the DeTomaso mark to
     continue increasing in value as we as a car club promote the
     desirability and camaraderie of ownership.  Currently, $70k seems to
   be
     fair market value for an average to clean and attractive Pantera;
   $100k
     plus for an exceptional example.  Look at the prices of a Boss 302
     Mustangs, or one of my favorites --the Intermeccanica Italia.  When
     compared to other collectables, current Pantera valuations may still
   be
     on the affordable side of the market.  After all, a new Corvette is
     $80k on up, I even looked at a $55k pick-up truck last week!  Then I
     realized, the Pantera hasn't inflated in value, it's our money that's
     lost value.
     Without considering monetary devaluation or future value projections,
     the Pantera has been a good investment, i.e., it's kept its value on
     par with modern sporty type cars, plus I get to drive it, admire it,
     and wrench on it.  In simple math, it's value is about 3 to 4 times
     what I paid for it, minus the cost of insurance, tags, replacement
     parts, oil change, etc.  It may be stylish artwork, but it's more
   than
     a picture hanging on a wall.  So with these factors in mind, what
   other
     car might provide even a fraction of the enjoyment while maintaining
     good value.  That's a question the article's authors couldn't even
     fathom.  From that perspective, the Pantera is one of the best
     automotive value investments available to the common man.
     Before I bought my Pantera, I was also looking for a Dino 246 Spyder,
     as they were about the same price way back then.  Today, the 246 is
     easily worth double the Pantera.  But if you consider the cost of
     ownership, i.e., service & parts, I still think the Pantera is a
   better
     investment.
     Jordan Klein
     7314
     PS: Obviously not intended to be a comprehensive dissertation.  Just
     rambling thoughts about the collector car hobby and valuations.
     > To: [1]DeTomaso at poca.com
     > From: [2]jtaphorn at kingwoodcable.com
     > Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2015 18:03:21 -0500
     > Subject: [DeTomaso] Should we purchase vintage cars for our
     investment portfolio?
     >
     > This Bloomberg story greeted me at my office this morning. Here is
     one
     > person's opinion on vintage cars as an investment. Would you agree?
     >
     >

   [3]http://www.fa-mag.com/news/why-a-classic-car-is--almost--never-a-goo
   d-i

   nvestment-22791.html?utm_source=PW+Subscribers&utm_campaign=f7ee052d6d-

   PWN_PW+News_081715&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_1899ce8517-f7ee052d6d-23
     2404493
     >
     > JT
     >
     > _______________________________________________
     >
     > Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
     > Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
     > DeTomaso mailing list
     > [4]DeTomaso at poca.com
     > [5]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
     >
     > To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe,
   etc.)
     use the links above.
   _______________________________________________
   Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
   Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
   DeTomaso mailing list
   [6]DeTomaso at poca.com
   [7]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
   To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
   use the links above.

References

   1. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
   2. mailto:jtaphorn at kingwoodcable.com
   3. http://www.fa-mag.com/news/why-a-classic-car-is--almost--never-a-good-i
   4. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
   5. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
   6. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
   7. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com


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