[DeTomaso] "Nascar " engine balance question for a race Pantera

Ken Green kenn_green at yahoo.com
Mon Apr 13 15:28:35 EDT 2015


I have a friend who ran a Vintage NASCAR for a while, and who vintages races a real GT350.  He said a dropped valve was a common failure, so make sure you put in new valve springs, even if the old springs still measure to have the spec pressure.  He said he stayed at or below 7,000 RPM and his engines lasted for a while, and usually just needed freshening.
640 HP isn't much for a NASCAR motor, do you know what series it was run in?  There might be some funky rules for the class it was in, you might want to make sure you don't limit yourself by what was in the engine.  It seems odd, but I have read that NASCAR requires solid lifters.  I'm not sure why.  I would not assume that the parts were chosen to make the best engine.
Do you have a list of parts that are in the engine?
Do you have the engine roles for the class(es) you will run it?

I suspect Dan Jones can offer some really good advice if he has enough information.
Ken
       From: Patrick HALS <patrickhals at gmail.com>
 To: Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com> 
Cc: DeTomaso at poca.com; Guy & Denise Trigaux <gdt2860 at gmail.com> 
 Sent: Monday, April 13, 2015 10:01 AM
 Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] "Nascar " engine balance question for a race Pantera
   
  Hi Ken,A
  Thanks for the very quick reply.A
  You are right... but I'd better have a dozen of coherent and identical
  US second advises than just trusting a reputable European engine
  builder who has built 25 Cleveland in his 40 years carreer. That's what
  a US builder does in one year or so... . I have experienced several
  disappointments in building even street engines in the EU, that I had
  all my race enginesA satisfactorilyA built in the US, even if,
  sometimes, there are some troubles. Life is like that. Nobody said
  building engines and putting them in a race car ( even a Pantera ) are
  an exact science... Especially when it comes to about 100 HP per liter
  with a normally aspirated engine whose conception dates back from the
  60's. Look at Formula One or World Endurance Championship ( WEC )
  A today, There, we are talking about the best engineers worldwide , and
  practically a no limit budget . There is a persistant rumour saying
  that Mercedes Benz left a one billion euros cheque on the table for its
  F1 hybrid A engine.A
  Asking "obvious" questions to the Forum has always been THE solution
  for me when I was " desperate" : fast, experienced , detailed, accurate
  AND friendly ! I cannot thank my Forum friends enough ! The Forum saved
  " my life " overnight for Le Mans Classic 2008 with Candy, I will never
  forget that .
  Pat

  Patrick Hals
  +32.476.567.898
  2015-04-13 17:59 GMT+02:00 Ken Green <[1]kenn_green at yahoo.com>:

  Hi Pat,
  If it's internally balanced, I think it should be a neutral balance
  (not the 20 oz balance)A flywheel.A A Cleveland and Windsor should be
  the same, but with a ZF, you need a 164 tooth flywheel.A  A lot of
  flywheels have removable weights, so you just take off whatever weight
  is on it.A  If you want it really good, have the flywheel and pressure
  plate balanced together toA zero.
  If the engine builder there does not already know this, he probably is
  not the right builder for your engine.
  Ken
  A
    __________________________________________________________________

  From: Patrick HALS <[2]patrickhals at gmail.com>
  To: [3]DeTomaso at poca.com
  Sent: Monday, April 13, 2015 8:34 AM
  Subject: [DeTomaso] "Nascar " engine balance question for a race
  Pantera
  A  I have closed my relationship with my "fancy and moody " US engine
  A  builder . Those who know him had warned me about him a long time ago
  A  and I must now admit that they were partially right ... After the
  good
  A  part, I now take the worse part, and the "fancy" bill, of course
  :>((
  A  This " gentleman" sent me back my unfinished race engine at my
  request.
  A  It A "only " needs flywheel, dry sump system and clutch.
  A  Here is what he writes to me : "As far as balancing the motor, it is
  an
  A  internally balanced motor.AA  If you have further questions
  regarding
  A  how to set up this motor or finish, please refer to the mechanics
  your
  A  are using locally as I have stated previously, our professional
  A  relationship is over."
  A  US engine builders are so used in building Ford V8 engines that I
  A  always had my race engines built in the US vs.EU, despite what I was
  A  advised over here. I shall have this engine finished over here, but
  A  would like to be sure of what a local ( competent ) builder will
  tell
  A  me to finish this (expensive) engine will be the right solution.
  What
  A  do I need in terms of flywheel? It is a Windsor based engine, NOT a
  A  Cleveland ( see pics ) . When I bought it ( broken ) three years
  ago,
  A  it was supposedly delivering 640 HP.... But it has now been fully
  A  redone, while keeping the " good" pieces
  A  Many thanks for your advises.
  A  Pat
  A  Patrick Hals
  A  +32.476.567.898
  _______________________________________________
  Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
  Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
  DeTomaso mailing list
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  To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
  use the links above.

References

  1. mailto:kenn_green at yahoo.com
  2. mailto:patrickhals at gmail.com
  3. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
  4. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com


  5. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com

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-------------- next part --------------
   I have a friend who ran a Vintage NASCAR for a while, and who
   vintages races a real GT350.  He said a dropped valve was a common
   failure, so make sure you put in new valve springs, even if the
   old springs still measure to have the spec pressure.  He said he
   stayed at or below 7,000 RPM and his engines lasted for a while, and
   usually just needed freshening.
   640 HP isn't much for a NASCAR motor, do you know what series it was
   run in?  There might be some funky rules for the class it was in, you
   might want to make sure you don't limit yourself by what was in the
   engine.  It seems odd, but I have read that NASCAR requires solid
   lifters.  I'm not sure why.  I would not assume that the parts were
   chosen to make the best engine.
   Do you have a list of parts that are in the engine?
   Do you have the engine roles for the class(es) you will run it?
   I suspect Dan Jones can offer some really good advice if he has enough
   information.
   Ken
     __________________________________________________________________

   From: Patrick HALS <patrickhals at gmail.com>
   To: Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com>
   Cc: DeTomaso at poca.com; Guy & Denise Trigaux <gdt2860 at gmail.com>
   Sent: Monday, April 13, 2015 10:01 AM
   Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] "Nascar " engine balance question for a race
   Pantera
     Hi Ken,A
     Thanks for the very quick reply.A
     You are right... but I'd better have a dozen of coherent and
   identical
     US second advises than just trusting a reputable European engine
     builder who has built 25 Cleveland in his 40 years carreer. That's
   what
     a US builder does in one year or so... . I have experienced several
     disappointments in building even street engines in the EU, that I had
     all my race enginesA satisfactorilyA built in the US, even if,
     sometimes, there are some troubles. Life is like that. Nobody said
     building engines and putting them in a race car ( even a Pantera )
   are
     an exact science... Especially when it comes to about 100 HP per
   liter
     with a normally aspirated engine whose conception dates back from the
     60's. Look at Formula One or World Endurance Championship ( WEC )
     A today, There, we are talking about the best engineers worldwide ,
   and
     practically a no limit budget . There is a persistant rumour saying
     that Mercedes Benz left a one billion euros cheque on the table for
   its
     F1 hybrid A engine.A
     Asking "obvious" questions to the Forum has always been THE solution
     for me when I was " desperate" : fast, experienced , detailed,
   accurate
     AND friendly ! I cannot thank my Forum friends enough ! The Forum
   saved
     " my life " overnight for Le Mans Classic 2008 with Candy, I will
   never
     forget that .
     Pat
     Patrick Hals
     +32.476.567.898
     2015-04-13 17:59 GMT+02:00 Ken Green <[1][1]kenn_green at yahoo.com>:
     Hi Pat,
     If it's internally balanced, I think it should be a neutral balance
     (not the 20 oz balance)A flywheel.A A Cleveland and Windsor should be
     the same, but with a ZF, you need a 164 tooth flywheel.A  A lot of
     flywheels have removable weights, so you just take off whatever
   weight
     is on it.A  If you want it really good, have the flywheel and
   pressure
     plate balanced together toA zero.
     If the engine builder there does not already know this, he probably
   is
     not the right builder for your engine.
     Ken
     A
       __________________________________________________________________
     From: Patrick HALS <[2][2]patrickhals at gmail.com>
     To: [3][3]DeTomaso at poca.com
     Sent: Monday, April 13, 2015 8:34 AM
     Subject: [DeTomaso] "Nascar " engine balance question for a race
     Pantera
     A  I have closed my relationship with my "fancy and moody " US engine
     A  builder . Those who know him had warned me about him a long time
   ago
     A  and I must now admit that they were partially right ... After the
     good
     A  part, I now take the worse part, and the "fancy" bill, of course
     :>((
     A  This " gentleman" sent me back my unfinished race engine at my
     request.
     A  It A "only " needs flywheel, dry sump system and clutch.
     A  Here is what he writes to me : "As far as balancing the motor, it
   is
     an
     A  internally balanced motor.AA  If you have further questions
     regarding
     A  how to set up this motor or finish, please refer to the mechanics
     your
     A  are using locally as I have stated previously, our professional
     A  relationship is over."
     A  US engine builders are so used in building Ford V8 engines that I
     A  always had my race engines built in the US vs.EU, despite what I
   was
     A  advised over here. I shall have this engine finished over here,
   but
     A  would like to be sure of what a local ( competent ) builder will
     tell
     A  me to finish this (expensive) engine will be the right solution.
     What
     A  do I need in terms of flywheel? It is a Windsor based engine, NOT
   a
     A  Cleveland ( see pics ) . When I bought it ( broken ) three years
     ago,
     A  it was supposedly delivering 640 HP.... But it has now been fully
     A  redone, while keeping the " good" pieces
     A  Many thanks for your advises.
     A  Pat
     A  Patrick Hals
     A  +32.476.567.898
     _______________________________________________
     Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
     Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
     DeTomaso mailing list
     [4][4]DeTomaso at poca.com
     [5][5]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
     To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
     use the links above.
   References
     1. mailto:[6]kenn_green at yahoo.com
     2. mailto:[7]patrickhals at gmail.com
     3. mailto:[8]DeTomaso at poca.com
     4. mailto:[9]DeTomaso at poca.com
     5. [10]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
   _______________________________________________
   Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
   Posted emails must not exceed 1.5 Megabytes
   DeTomaso mailing list
   [11]DeTomaso at poca.com
   [12]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
   To manage your subscription (change email address, unsubscribe, etc.)
   use the links above.

References

   1. mailto:kenn_green at yahoo.com
   2. mailto:patrickhals at gmail.com
   3. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
   4. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
   5. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
   6. mailto:kenn_green at yahoo.com
   7. mailto:patrickhals at gmail.com
   8. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
   9. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
  10. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
  11. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
  12. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com


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