[DeTomaso] : Back in the saddle

[Julian Kift]

Mike,
 
As I understand the reaming and sleeving of halfshafts was a Hall Pantera work around for low availability and exorbitant pricing of oem u-joints many years ago. Gary would sleeve the joint carriers down to use  a Spicer u-joint in the stock halfshaft. My '74 halfshafts were like that and were basically junk, I'd advise anyone who doesn't know what they have to check and if you find you have Spicer u-joints in stock style half shaft then do something ASAP. If you need to replace the half shafts then a switch to CV joints is indeed economical and prudent at that point in my opinion. 
 
I took advantage of one of Scott's Christmas sales and purchased two set of his CV axle kits , one for each car. You don't tell us how much you now have invested in your rebuilt and balanced but still 19th Century technology halfshafts MIke? However, considering I can sell my halfshafts to stubborn folks like you on eBay for over a third of the cost of my CV's I'd say I'm ahead all round.
 
For serious owners who are also after the weight saving then changing the ZF stub axles to CV stubs along with custom length CV axles that don't then require the adapter would be the costly way to go. To do the outboard side you'll need to find some aftermarket axles with a CV end, which I don't believe are readily available.
 
The more interesting, but less discussed part of your post is the brake upgrade; a big brake kit that you can use and improve braking whilst retaining 15" wheels has to be an attraction for many, so hopefully all your woes and support from Scott will translate into him being able to offer a complete bolt on kit. 
 
Julian
 
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2014 08:44:32 -0700
To: detomaso at poca.com
Subject: [DeTomaso] : Back in the saddle
From: detomaso at poca.com

 
> Hi guys,
> 
> Some of you may remember that my Pantera has been up on my lift for the world's longest brake system upgrade project.  Scott at SACC Restorations has been a dream to work with; on the other hand I have been a pain in his butt because of my unique requirements (must have big brakes, must run stock Campagnolo wheels) along with my own inability to overcome inertia when the project ran around (or more accurately, when the wheels crashed into the calipers).
> 
> Months would pass with spiffy new parts sitting on the floor, waiting to be installed, but time constraints coupled with fundamental laziness made it impossible.  And then, just when I thought I was finally done, I discovered my halfshaft U-joints were shot.  An attempt to rectify that situation at a PCNC tech session turned into what the British would term, "a dog's breakfast' with U-joint caps being broken left and right.
> 
> After ordering a stack of replacement U-joints, eventually I made the decision to bring my halfshafts to a gen-u-ine driveshaft specialist to have them rebuilt and balanced.  I'm glad I did, because they discovered some of the ends of my halfshafts had been damaged by a previous, long-ago owner and were bored out and sleeved, so the new U-joints wouldn't fit properly.  Fortunately I had some spare driveshaft bits in my parts stash that I had thoughtfully brought with me, so among all the parts, they were able to generate two good halfshafts with new U-joints installed.
> 
> (If anybody has a desire for random halfshaft ends with U-joint holes that are either oversize, or oval, or both, let me know and I'll make you a good deal!).
> 
> I noted when I took my halfshafts out that four of the bolts (all four on the inboard passenger side) were barely tight--this despite the fact that they had been installed and tightened properly just a few hundred miles earlier.  I played it safe and bought new lockwashers and new Grade 8 nylock nuts for reinstallation (curiously, the factory application calls for use of both split washers and nylock nuts; the bolts are just barely long enough for the nylock to engage the threads on the bolt as a result).
> 
> I finally got the car back on the ground and drove it around the block a couple of days ago; last night I took it on its maiden voyage, about 45 minutes up to the Capitol Panteras monthly meeting.
> 
> I haven't had the opportunity to fully test the brakes yet (for now I can say that they work, but the old ones seemed to work too, until I learned the balance was AFU).  I need to break in the new pads and rotors properly, something I'll likely do next week.  Bob Benson and I are going to be running at Laguna Seca on the 21st (Brent Stewart is supposed to be running with us but he wimped out!) so I will definitely put them to the test there, but I plan to have full confidence in them before leaving for the track.
> 
> Anyway, the whole point of this missive is that I was shocked at how SMOOTH my car ran last night.  I've always been particularly impressed by my Pantera in comparison to the many others I've driven; thanks to the exorcism of a lot of rust and the substitution of much thicker and stronger steel in the floors and rockers, few feel as solid or buttoned-down as mine does (this despite the somewhat floaty ride from the crappy old 50-series tires).  My car has always had just a slight tinge of vibration; nothing you could put your finger on, but something that I just chalked up to the fact that the tires sit for long periods of time, are 20+ years old, it is a 42-year-old car, and 'they all do that sir'.
> 
> While I had the halfshafts out I noted that the passenger side GTS tailpipe was resting against the chassis, and that seemed like a good way to transmit unwanted noise and vibration, so I put the tailpipe into my 20-ton press and 'reprofiled' the pipe slightly, so that it just barely clears the chassis now.  And of course, when I installed the newly balanced halfshafts I made sure everything was good and tight.
> 
> I was astounded at the difference.  My Pantera now feels like a brand new car when cruising on the freeway.  I'm convinced that my halfshafts were the source of the feeling I no longer feel (although the exhaust may have played a role as well).  When I took the halfshafts apart originally, I discovered that the outboard U-joints had been replaced, but they were stiff and unhappy, while the inboard U-joints were original, with no provisions for lubrication, and were bone dry and rusty--it's a miracle that I didn't have one of them snap on me!.
> 
> While there is no doubt that CV-joint halfshafts are sexy, they are also expensive, and just as heavy as the stock ones.  People have reported great improvements when switching to CV-joint halfshafts, but I am here to tell you that the improvement comes mostly (if not fully) from replacing the old ones, rather than from the fact that they happened to have chosen CV-joint units to replace them with.  I think having my halfshafts rebuilt and balanced was some of the best money I've ever spent!
 
I was so happy that I decided to drive the car to work this morning. I actually got to work early as a result!
 

> 
> Mike
>
_______________________________________________

Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA

DeTomaso mailing list
DeTomaso at poca.com
http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com 		 	   		  
-------------- next part --------------
   Mike,

   As I understand the reaming and sleeving of halfshafts was a
   Hall Pantera work around for low availability and exorbitant pricing of
   oem u-joints many years ago. Gary would sleeve the joint carriers down
   to use  a Spicer u-joint in the stock halfshaft. My '74 halfshafts were
   like that and were basically junk, I'd advise anyone who doesn't know
   what they have to check and if you find you have Spicer u-joints in
   stock style half shaft then do something ASAP. If you need to replace
   the half shafts then a switch to CV joints is indeed economical and
   prudent at that point in my opinion.

   I took advantage of one of Scott's Christmas sales and purchased two
   set of his CV axle kits , one for each car. You don't tell us how much
   you now have invested in your rebuilt and balanced but still 19th
   Century technology halfshafts MIke? However, considering I can sell my
   halfshafts to stubborn folks like you on eBay for over a third of the
   cost of my CV's I'd say I'm ahead all round.

   For serious owners who are also after the weight saving then changing
   the ZF stub axles to CV stubs along with custom length CV axles that
   don't then require the adapter would be the costly way to go. To do the
   outboard side you'll need to find some aftermarket axles with a CV end,
   which I don't believe are readily available.

   The more interesting, but less discussed part of your post is the brake
   upgrade; a big brake kit that you can use and improve braking whilst
   retaining 15" wheels has to be an attraction for many, so hopefully all
   your woes and support from Scott will translate into him being able to
   offer a complete bolt on kit.

   Julian

   Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2014 08:44:32 -0700
   To: detomaso at poca.com
   Subject: [DeTomaso] : Back in the saddle
   From: detomaso at poca.com

> Hi guys,
>
> Some of you may remember that my Pantera has been up on my lift for the world'
s longest brake system upgrade project.  Scott at SACC Restorations has been a d
ream to work with; on the other hand I have been a pain in his butt because of m
y unique requirements (must have big brakes, must run stock Campagnolo wheels) a
long with my own inability to overcome inertia when the project ran around (or m
ore accurately, when the wheels crashed into the calipers).
>
> Months would pass with spiffy new parts sitting on the floor, waiting to be in
stalled, but time constraints coupled with fundamental laziness made it impossib
le.  And then, just when I thought I was finally done, I discovered my halfshaft
 U-joints were shot.  An attempt to rectify that situation at a PCNC tech sessio
n turned into what the British would term, "a dog's breakfast' with U-joint caps
 being broken left and right.
>
> After ordering a stack of replacement U-joints, eventually I made the decision
 to bring my halfshafts to a gen-u-ine driveshaft specialist to have them rebuil
t and balanced.  I'm glad I did, because they discovered some of the ends of my
halfshafts had been damaged by a previous, long-ago owner and were bored out and
 sleeved, so the new U-joints wouldn't fit properly.  Fortunately I had some spa
re driveshaft bits in my parts stash that I had thoughtfully brought with me, so
 among all the parts, they were able to generate two good halfshafts with new U-
joints installed.
>
> (If anybody has a desire for random halfshaft ends with U-joint holes that are
 either oversize, or oval, or both, let me know and I'll make you a good deal!).
>
> I noted when I took my halfshafts out that four of the bolts (all four on the
inboard passenger side) were barely tight--this despite the fact that they had b
een installed and tightened properly just a few hundred miles earlier.  I played
 it safe and bought new lockwashers and new Grade 8 nylock nuts for reinstallati
on (curiously, the factory application calls for use of both split washers and n
ylock nuts; the bolts are just barely long enough for the nylock to engage the t
hreads on the bolt as a result).
>
> I finally got the car back on the ground and drove it around the block a coupl
e of days ago; last night I took it on its maiden voyage, about 45 minutes up to
 the Capitol Panteras monthly meeting.
>
> I haven't had the opportunity to fully test the brakes yet (for now I can say
that they work, but the old ones seemed to work too, until I learned the balance
 was AFU).  I need to break in the new pads and rotors properly, something I'll
likely do next week.  Bob Benson and I are going to be running at Laguna Seca on
 the 21st (Brent Stewart is supposed to be running with us but he wimped out!) s
o I will definitely put them to the test there, but I plan to have full confiden
ce in them before leaving for the track.
>
> Anyway, the whole point of this missive is that I was shocked at how SMOOTH my
 car ran last night.  I've always been particularly impressed by my Pantera in c
omparison to the many others I've driven; thanks to the exorcism of a lot of rus
t and the substitution of much thicker and stronger steel in the floors and rock
ers, few feel as solid or buttoned-down as mine does (this despite the somewhat
floaty ride from the crappy old 50-series tires).  My car has always had just a
slight tinge of vibration; nothing you could put your finger on, but something t
hat I just chalked up to the fact that the tires sit for long periods of time, a
re 20+ years old, it is a 42-year-old car, and 'they all do that sir'.
>
> While I had the halfshafts out I noted that the passenger side GTS tailpipe wa
s resting against the chassis, and that seemed like a good way to transmit unwan
ted noise and vibration, so I put the tailpipe into my 20-ton press and 'reprofi
led' the pipe slightly, so that it just barely clears the chassis now.  And of c
ourse, when I installed the newly balanced halfshafts I made sure everything was
 good and tight.
>
> I was astounded at the difference.  My Pantera now feels like a brand new car
when cruising on the freeway.  I'm convinced that my halfshafts were the source
of the feeling I no longer feel (although the exhaust may have played a role as
well).  When I took the halfshafts apart originally, I discovered that the outbo
ard U-joints had been replaced, but they were stiff and unhappy, while the inboa
rd U-joints were original, with no provisions for lubrication, and were bone dry
 and rusty--it's a miracle that I didn't have one of them snap on me!.
>
> While there is no doubt that CV-joint halfshafts are sexy, they are also expen
sive, and just as heavy as the stock ones.  People have reported great improveme
nts when switching to CV-joint halfshafts, but I am here to tell you that the im
provement comes mostly (if not fully) from replacing the old ones, rather than f
rom the fact that they happened to have chosen CV-joint units to replace them wi
th.  I think having my halfshafts rebuilt and balanced was some of the best mone
y I've ever spent!

I was so happy that I decided to drive the car to work this morning. I actually
got to work early as a result!


   > > Mike >
   _______________________________________________ Detomaso Forum Managed
   by POCA DeTomaso mailing list DeTomaso at poca.com
   http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com