[DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for suggestions
michael at michaelshortt.com
michael at michaelshortt.com
Mon Nov 3 09:09:36 EST 2014
Water in the dist cap sounds more likely.
Michael
On Nov 3, 2014 8:48 AM, "Charles McCall" <charlesmccall at gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks Jeff. It isn't unusually humid here and the car is always stored
> indoors. As I was writing this, however, it occured to me that it isn't
> imposible that some wA!ter may have entered the air cleaner and dropped
> into the carb while washing the car. I'm usually pretty careful with
> where I aim the hose, but I couldn't swear that the engine stayed dry,
> or when opening the decklid when wet, some wA!ter may have run off near
> the cleaner...
> A
> I will take the air cleaner off and see if I see a healthy squirt from
> the acclerator pump. I don't think it would be fuel pump or clogged
> fuel filter, as it stumbles under trailing throttle as well, it it can
> provide enough fuel for sustainted 115mph running
> A
> Could it be electrical? My last MSD 6AL gave some really weird symptoms
> that I thought were carb-related before I changed the box and all my
> problems went away. I'll go step-by-step
>
> On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 12:55 AM, <[1]jgkrenton at comcast.net> wrote:
>
> Charlie:
> How's the weather??
> Your problem sort of sounds like it could be water in the fuel to me.A
> Just a drop can be a problem and once you get it in there, it can hang
> around a long time.A
> As already mentioned, do the usual things to make sure you didn't
> "introduce" the problem during the recent tuning.A Take the air
> cleaner off and see if that makes any difference.A Check the timing
> (yes, a pain on the Pantera). Make sure the accelerator pump is
> squirting. Check the fuel pressure/fuel pump etc.A I have also been
> recently bit by a bad coil and a bad fuel pump.A Don't rule anything
> out.
> Then dump some "fuel dryer" in the tank and run it a bit to see if that
> helps.A Here in Seattle, water in the fuel is a common problem.
> The fuel dryer should help, but there is also the tried and true "rag
> tune".
> You have to be careful with this one, but the idea is to rev the engine
> a bit by hand with the air cleaner off.A A Then when the engine is
> reving a bit, maybe 2500 RPM, shove a big rag over the carb for just a
> second. (The air-horns, choke, secondary venturies will keep the rag
> from being sucked into the engine). The rag acts like a massive choke
> and the engine will smoke and die if you leave the rag there for more
> than a few seconds.A But what this does is raise the full engine
> vacuum up above the throttle plates and jets/ bleeds to the
> air-horn/rag level.A This "extra" vacuum will draw any water out of
> the jets/bleeds where the "normal" vacuum often is not strong enough to
> pull any water out of the jets.
> If your carb is a Holley, you can pull the float chambers off too and
> make sure they don't have water in them....
> Good luck.
> Jeff/2467
> __________________________________________________________________
>
> From: "McCall, Charles" <[2]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
> To: "Mark Charlton" <[3]pantera01826 at rogers.com>
> Cc: "DeTomaso Mail List" <[4]detomaso at poca.com>
> Sent: Sunday, November 2, 2014 11:46:48 AM
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for suggestions
> Thanks Mark, but I used 3 full tanks of gas in the past 2 days :-o
> The problem has gotten slowly worse, I think.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Charlton [mailto:[5]pantera01826 at rogers.com]
> Sent: domingo, 2 de noviembre de 2014 20:43
> To: Charles McCall
> Cc: DeTomaso Mail List
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for suggestions
> Charlie,
> I had a very similar experience with my car during a long tour in
> western
> Canada. We checked everything and concluded it must be a carb issue.
> After a
> full tear-down of the carb revealed nothing wrong at all, I filled the
> car
> (it was 3/4 empty) and the car ran fine again. We concluded that a
> stale
> batch of 94 octane gas (not commonly available) caused the issue. With
> any
> luck that will be your case too I hope.
> Mark Charlton
> [6]pantera01826 at rogers.com
> On Nov 2, 2014, at 2:20 PM, Charles McCall <[7]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > I haven't checked timing, but wouldn't that make the engine run hot?
> >
> > Would that explain the stumble? It might explain why it doesn't feel
> as
> > crisp as it should
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: thomas [mailto:[8]thomas at hax.se]
> > Sent: domingo, 2 de noviembre de 2014 20:18
> > To: Charles McCall
> > Cc: <[9]detomaso at poca.com>
> > Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for suggestions
> >
> > The distributor gear pin?
> >
> > Checked timing?
> >
> >
> >> 2 nov 2014 kl. 20:13 skrev Charles McCall
> <[10]charlesmccall at gmail.com>:
> >>
> >> A Hi all
> >>
> >>
> >> A I just got back from a Supercar event in northern Spain with 35
> cars
> >> A attending - Lambo, Ferrari, Viper, Porsche, and, as usual, a lone
> >> A DeTomaso!
> >>
> >>
> >> A The highlight for me without a doubt was an 8-minute burst on the
> >> A highway with the police clearing the way for us, cruising at a
> steady
> >> A GPS-indicated 180 k/hr in a 35 car convoy... the people out for a
> >> A Sunday drive must have had their minds boggled...
> >>
> >>
> >> A Anyway, my engine is not happy. This morning in the hotel parking
> lot I
> >> A really thought that we'd have to skip today's event because it
> wouldn't
> >> A start and didn't sound like it was even thinking about starting.
> Took
> >> A probably 5 minutes of crank-wait-crank-wait before it fired.
> Yesterday
> >> A at the gas station it took 2-3 minutes to start, something that
> has
> >> A never, ever happened before. It is really hard to describe the
> problem
> >> A so much of it is "feel", but I'll do my best.
> >>
> >>
> >> A A few weeks ago I noticed that the engine would tend to stumble if
> I
> >> A would floor the throttle, then clear its throat and pull. For
> example,
> >> A I like to heel-and-toe, just because, and when blipping the
> throttle it
> >> A would stumble instead of rev. The engine also felt a little
> rougher, as
> >> A though it vibrated more than I remembered it. I don't remember if
> this
> >> A was before or after I did a short tune-up, by adjusting the valve
> lash
> >> A (I have mechanical lifters), and cleaning the K&N air filter by
> >> A applying K&N filter oil, etc. or if it is irrelevant. So I was
> messing
> >> A around in the engine bay recently...
> >>
> >>
> >> A This weekend the engine felt considerably worse. It felt like it
> would
> >> A stumble under partial throttle as well. It would stumble a little
> bit
> >> A under trailing throttle going downhill as well, so I don't think
> it is
> >> A a clogged fuel filter.
> >>
> >>
> >> A Oil temp is perfect. Oil pressure is perfect. Water temp is
> perfect.
> >> A The engine idles perfectly. But if you floor the gas from idle,
> it'll
> >> A stall. The engine doesn't feel crisp, it feels bloated and soft,
> if
> >> A that makes sense. It feels rough, and it feels like it
> occasionally
> >> A stumbles under constant throttle at highway speed. It pulls hard
> when
> >> A accelerating, but I don't think as hard as it used to, or as high
> (I
> >> A have a 6500 rpm limiting chip in the MSD that it used to pull very
> >> A easily to).
> >>
> >>
> >> A Suggestions for where to begin looking? And other info that would
> help
> >> A in troubleshooting?
> >>
> >>
> >> !DSPAM:54568258260291209923907!
> >> _______________________________________________
> >>
> >> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> >>
> >> DeTomaso mailing list
> >> [11]DeTomaso at poca.com
> >> [12]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>
> >>
> >> !DSPAM:54568258260291209923907!
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> > Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> >
> > DeTomaso mailing list
> > [13]DeTomaso at poca.com
> > [14]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> _______________________________________________
> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> DeTomaso mailing list
> [15]DeTomaso at poca.com
> [16]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>
> References
>
> 1. mailto:jgkrenton at comcast.net
> 2. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
> 3. mailto:pantera01826 at rogers.com
> 4. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
> 5. mailto:pantera01826 at rogers.com
> 6. mailto:pantera01826 at rogers.com
> 7. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
> 8. mailto:thomas at hax.se
> 9. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
> 10. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
> 11. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> 12. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 13. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> 14. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 15. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> 16. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at poca.com
> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
Water in the dist cap sounds more likely.
Michael
On Nov 3, 2014 8:48 AM, "Charles McCall" <[1]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
wrote:
A A Thanks Jeff. It isn't unusually humid here and the car is
always stored
A A indoors. As I was writing this, however, it occured to me that
it isn't
A A imposible that some wA!ter may have entered the air cleaner and
dropped
A A into the carb while washing the car. I'm usually pretty careful
with
A A where I aim the hose, but I couldn't swear that the engine
stayed dry,
A A or when opening the decklid when wet, some wA!ter may have run
off near
A A the cleaner...
A A A
A A I will take the air cleaner off and see if I see a healthy
squirt from
A A the acclerator pump. I don't think it would be fuel pump or
clogged
A A fuel filter, as it stumbles under trailing throttle as well, it
it can
A A provide enough fuel for sustainted 115mph running
A A A
A A Could it be electrical? My last MSD 6AL gave some really weird
symptoms
A A that I thought were carb-related before I changed the box and
all my
A A problems went away. I'll go step-by-step
A A On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 12:55 AM, <[1][2]jgkrenton at comcast.net>
wrote:
A A Charlie:
A A How's the weather??
A A Your problem sort of sounds like it could be water in the fuel
to me.A
A A Just a drop can be a problem and once you get it in there, it
can hang
A A around a long time.A
A A As already mentioned, do the usual things to make sure you
didn't
A A "introduce" the problem during the recent tuning.AA Take the
air
A A cleaner off and see if that makes any difference.AA Check the
timing
A A (yes, a pain on the Pantera). Make sure the accelerator pump is
A A squirting. Check the fuel pressure/fuel pump etc.AA I have
also been
A A recently bit by a bad coil and a bad fuel pump.AA Don't rule
anything
A A out.
A A Then dump some "fuel dryer" in the tank and run it a bit to see
if that
A A helps.AA Here in Seattle, water in the fuel is a common
problem.
A A The fuel dryer should help, but there is also the tried and
true "rag
A A tune".
A A You have to be careful with this one, but the idea is to rev
the engine
A A a bit by hand with the air cleaner off.A AA Then when the
engine is
A A reving a bit, maybe 2500 RPM, shove a big rag over the carb for
just a
A A second. (The air-horns, choke, secondary venturies will keep
the rag
A A from being sucked into the engine). The rag acts like a massive
choke
A A and the engine will smoke and die if you leave the rag there
for more
A A than a few seconds.AA But what this does is raise the full
engine
A A vacuum up above the throttle plates and jets/ bleeds to the
A A air-horn/rag level.AA This "extra" vacuum will draw any water
out of
A A the jets/bleeds where the "normal" vacuum often is not strong
enough to
A A pull any water out of the jets.
A A If your carb is a Holley, you can pull the float chambers off
too and
A A make sure they don't have water in them....
A A Good luck.
A A Jeff/2467
A A
A __________________________________________________________________
A A From: "McCall, Charles" <[2][3]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
A A To: "Mark Charlton" <[3][4]pantera01826 at rogers.com>
A A Cc: "DeTomaso Mail List" <[4][5]detomaso at poca.com>
A A Sent: Sunday, November 2, 2014 11:46:48 AM
A A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for suggestions
A A Thanks Mark, but I used 3 full tanks of gas in the past 2 days
:-o
A A The problem has gotten slowly worse, I think.
A A -----Original Message-----
A A From: Mark Charlton [mailto:[5][6]pantera01826 at rogers.com]
A A Sent: domingo, 2 de noviembre de 2014 20:43
A A To: Charles McCall
A A Cc: DeTomaso Mail List
A A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for suggestions
A A Charlie,
A A I had a very similar experience with my car during a long tour
in
A A western
A A Canada. We checked everything and concluded it must be a carb
issue.
A A After a
A A full tear-down of the carb revealed nothing wrong at all, I
filled the
A A car
A A (it was 3/4 empty) and the car ran fine again. We concluded
that a
A A stale
A A batch of 94 octane gas (not commonly available) caused the
issue. With
A A any
A A luck that will be your case too I hope.
A A Mark Charlton
A A [6][7]pantera01826 at rogers.com
A A On Nov 2, 2014, at 2:20 PM, Charles McCall
<[7][8]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
A A wrote:
A A > I haven't checked timing, but wouldn't that make the engine
run hot?
A A >
A A > Would that explain the stumble? It might explain why it
doesn't feel
A A as
A A > crisp as it should
A A >
A A > -----Original Message-----
A A > From: thomas [mailto:[8][9]thomas at hax.se]
A A > Sent: domingo, 2 de noviembre de 2014 20:18
A A > To: Charles McCall
A A > Cc: <[9][10]detomaso at poca.com>
A A > Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for
suggestions
A A >
A A > The distributor gear pin?
A A >
A A > Checked timing?
A A >
A A >
A A >> 2 nov 2014 kl. 20:13 skrev Charles McCall
A A <[10][11]charlesmccall at gmail.com>:
A A >>
A A >> A Hi all
A A >>
A A >>
A A >> A I just got back from a Supercar event in northern Spain
with 35
A A cars
A A >> A attending - Lambo, Ferrari, Viper, Porsche, and, as usual,
a lone
A A >> A DeTomaso!
A A >>
A A >>
A A >> A The highlight for me without a doubt was an 8-minute burst
on the
A A >> A highway with the police clearing the way for us, cruising
at a
A A steady
A A >> A GPS-indicated 180 k/hr in a 35 car convoy... the people
out for a
A A >> A Sunday drive must have had their minds boggled...
A A >>
A A >>
A A >> A Anyway, my engine is not happy. This morning in the hotel
parking
A A lot I
A A >> A really thought that we'd have to skip today's event
because it
A A wouldn't
A A >> A start and didn't sound like it was even thinking about
starting.
A A Took
A A >> A probably 5 minutes of crank-wait-crank-wait before it
fired.
A A Yesterday
A A >> A at the gas station it took 2-3 minutes to start, something
that
A A has
A A >> A never, ever happened before. It is really hard to describe
the
A A problem
A A >> A so much of it is "feel", but I'll do my best.
A A >>
A A >>
A A >> A A few weeks ago I noticed that the engine would tend to
stumble if
A A I
A A >> A would floor the throttle, then clear its throat and pull.
For
A A example,
A A >> A I like to heel-and-toe, just because, and when blipping
the
A A throttle it
A A >> A would stumble instead of rev. The engine also felt a
little
A A rougher, as
A A >> A though it vibrated more than I remembered it. I don't
remember if
A A this
A A >> A was before or after I did a short tune-up, by adjusting
the valve
A A lash
A A >> A (I have mechanical lifters), and cleaning the K&N air
filter by
A A >> A applying K&N filter oil, etc. or if it is irrelevant. So I
was
A A messing
A A >> A around in the engine bay recently...
A A >>
A A >>
A A >> A This weekend the engine felt considerably worse. It felt
like it
A A would
A A >> A stumble under partial throttle as well. It would stumble a
little
A A bit
A A >> A under trailing throttle going downhill as well, so I don't
think
A A it is
A A >> A a clogged fuel filter.
A A >>
A A >>
A A >> A Oil temp is perfect. Oil pressure is perfect. Water temp
is
A A perfect.
A A >> A The engine idles perfectly. But if you floor the gas from
idle,
A A it'll
A A >> A stall. The engine doesn't feel crisp, it feels bloated and
soft,
A A if
A A >> A that makes sense. It feels rough, and it feels like it
A A occasionally
A A >> A stumbles under constant throttle at highway speed. It
pulls hard
A A when
A A >> A accelerating, but I don't think as hard as it used to, or
as high
A A (I
A A >> A have a 6500 rpm limiting chip in the MSD that it used to
pull very
A A >> A easily to).
A A >>
A A >>
A A >> A Suggestions for where to begin looking? And other info
that would
A A help
A A >> A in troubleshooting?
A A >>
A A >>
A A >> !DSPAM:54568258260291209923907!
A A >> _______________________________________________
A A >>
A A >> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
A A >>
A A >> DeTomaso mailing list
A A >> [11][12]DeTomaso at poca.com
A A >> [12][13]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A A >>
A A >>
A A >> !DSPAM:54568258260291209923907!
A A >
A A >
A A > _______________________________________________
A A >
A A > Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
A A >
A A > DeTomaso mailing list
A A > [13][14]DeTomaso at poca.com
A A > [14][15]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A A _______________________________________________
A A Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
A A DeTomaso mailing list
A A [15][16]DeTomaso at poca.com
A A [16][17]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
References
A A 1. mailto:[18]jgkrenton at comcast.net
A A 2. mailto:[19]charlesmccall at gmail.com
A A 3. mailto:[20]pantera01826 at rogers.com
A A 4. mailto:[21]detomaso at poca.com
A A 5. mailto:[22]pantera01826 at rogers.com
A A 6. mailto:[23]pantera01826 at rogers.com
A A 7. mailto:[24]charlesmccall at gmail.com
A A 8. mailto:[25]thomas at hax.se
A A 9. mailto:[26]detomaso at poca.com
A 10. mailto:[27]charlesmccall at gmail.com
A 11. mailto:[28]DeTomaso at poca.com
A 12. [29]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A 13. mailto:[30]DeTomaso at poca.com
A 14. [31]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A 15. mailto:[32]DeTomaso at poca.com
A 16. [33]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
DeTomaso mailing list
[34]DeTomaso at poca.com
[35]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
References
1. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
2. mailto:jgkrenton at comcast.net
3. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
4. mailto:pantera01826 at rogers.com
5. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
6. mailto:pantera01826 at rogers.com
7. mailto:pantera01826 at rogers.com
8. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
9. mailto:thomas at hax.se
10. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
11. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
12. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
13. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
14. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
15. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
16. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
17. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
18. mailto:jgkrenton at comcast.net
19. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
20. mailto:pantera01826 at rogers.com
21. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
22. mailto:pantera01826 at rogers.com
23. mailto:pantera01826 at rogers.com
24. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
25. mailto:thomas at hax.se
26. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
27. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
28. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
29. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
30. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
31. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
32. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
33. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
34. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
35. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
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