[DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for suggestions

michael at michaelshortt.com michael at michaelshortt.com
Mon Nov 3 09:09:36 EST 2014


Water in the dist cap sounds more likely.

Michael
On Nov 3, 2014 8:48 AM, "Charles McCall" <charlesmccall at gmail.com> wrote:

>    Thanks Jeff. It isn't unusually humid here and the car is always stored
>    indoors. As I was writing this, however, it occured to me that it isn't
>    imposible that some wA!ter may have entered the air cleaner and dropped
>    into the carb while washing the car. I'm usually pretty careful with
>    where I aim the hose, but I couldn't swear that the engine stayed dry,
>    or when opening the decklid when wet, some wA!ter may have run off near
>    the cleaner...
>    A
>    I will take the air cleaner off and see if I see a healthy squirt from
>    the acclerator pump. I don't think it would be fuel pump or clogged
>    fuel filter, as it stumbles under trailing throttle as well, it it can
>    provide enough fuel for sustainted 115mph running
>    A
>    Could it be electrical? My last MSD 6AL gave some really weird symptoms
>    that I thought were carb-related before I changed the box and all my
>    problems went away. I'll go step-by-step
>
>    On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 12:55 AM, <[1]jgkrenton at comcast.net> wrote:
>
>    Charlie:
>    How's the weather??
>    Your problem sort of sounds like it could be water in the fuel to me.A
>    Just a drop can be a problem and once you get it in there, it can hang
>    around a long time.A
>    As already mentioned, do the usual things to make sure you didn't
>    "introduce" the problem during the recent tuning.A  Take the air
>    cleaner off and see if that makes any difference.A  Check the timing
>    (yes, a pain on the Pantera). Make sure the accelerator pump is
>    squirting. Check the fuel pressure/fuel pump etc.A  I have also been
>    recently bit by a bad coil and a bad fuel pump.A  Don't rule anything
>    out.
>    Then dump some "fuel dryer" in the tank and run it a bit to see if that
>    helps.A  Here in Seattle, water in the fuel is a common problem.
>    The fuel dryer should help, but there is also the tried and true "rag
>    tune".
>    You have to be careful with this one, but the idea is to rev the engine
>    a bit by hand with the air cleaner off.A A  Then when the engine is
>    reving a bit, maybe 2500 RPM, shove a big rag over the carb for just a
>    second. (The air-horns, choke, secondary venturies will keep the rag
>    from being sucked into the engine). The rag acts like a massive choke
>    and the engine will smoke and die if you leave the rag there for more
>    than a few seconds.A  But what this does is raise the full engine
>    vacuum up above the throttle plates and jets/ bleeds to the
>    air-horn/rag level.A  This "extra" vacuum will draw any water out of
>    the jets/bleeds where the "normal" vacuum often is not strong enough to
>    pull any water out of the jets.
>    If your carb is a Holley, you can pull the float chambers off too and
>    make sure they don't have water in them....
>    Good luck.
>    Jeff/2467
>      __________________________________________________________________
>
>    From: "McCall, Charles" <[2]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
>    To: "Mark Charlton" <[3]pantera01826 at rogers.com>
>    Cc: "DeTomaso Mail List" <[4]detomaso at poca.com>
>    Sent: Sunday, November 2, 2014 11:46:48 AM
>    Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for suggestions
>    Thanks Mark, but I used 3 full tanks of gas in the past 2 days :-o
>    The problem has gotten slowly worse, I think.
>    -----Original Message-----
>    From: Mark Charlton [mailto:[5]pantera01826 at rogers.com]
>    Sent: domingo, 2 de noviembre de 2014 20:43
>    To: Charles McCall
>    Cc: DeTomaso Mail List
>    Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for suggestions
>    Charlie,
>    I had a very similar experience with my car during a long tour in
>    western
>    Canada. We checked everything and concluded it must be a carb issue.
>    After a
>    full tear-down of the carb revealed nothing wrong at all, I filled the
>    car
>    (it was 3/4 empty) and the car ran fine again. We concluded that a
>    stale
>    batch of 94 octane gas (not commonly available) caused the issue. With
>    any
>    luck that will be your case too I hope.
>    Mark Charlton
>    [6]pantera01826 at rogers.com
>    On Nov 2, 2014, at 2:20 PM, Charles McCall <[7]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
>    wrote:
>    > I haven't checked timing, but wouldn't that make the engine run hot?
>    >
>    > Would that explain the stumble? It might explain why it doesn't feel
>    as
>    > crisp as it should
>    >
>    > -----Original Message-----
>    > From: thomas [mailto:[8]thomas at hax.se]
>    > Sent: domingo, 2 de noviembre de 2014 20:18
>    > To: Charles McCall
>    > Cc: <[9]detomaso at poca.com>
>    > Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for suggestions
>    >
>    > The distributor gear pin?
>    >
>    > Checked timing?
>    >
>    >
>    >> 2 nov 2014 kl. 20:13 skrev Charles McCall
>    <[10]charlesmccall at gmail.com>:
>    >>
>    >> A Hi all
>    >>
>    >>
>    >> A I just got back from a Supercar event in northern Spain with 35
>    cars
>    >> A attending - Lambo, Ferrari, Viper, Porsche, and, as usual, a lone
>    >> A DeTomaso!
>    >>
>    >>
>    >> A The highlight for me without a doubt was an 8-minute burst on the
>    >> A highway with the police clearing the way for us, cruising at a
>    steady
>    >> A GPS-indicated 180 k/hr in a 35 car convoy... the people out for a
>    >> A Sunday drive must have had their minds boggled...
>    >>
>    >>
>    >> A Anyway, my engine is not happy. This morning in the hotel parking
>    lot I
>    >> A really thought that we'd have to skip today's event because it
>    wouldn't
>    >> A start and didn't sound like it was even thinking about starting.
>    Took
>    >> A probably 5 minutes of crank-wait-crank-wait before it fired.
>    Yesterday
>    >> A at the gas station it took 2-3 minutes to start, something that
>    has
>    >> A never, ever happened before. It is really hard to describe the
>    problem
>    >> A so much of it is "feel", but I'll do my best.
>    >>
>    >>
>    >> A A few weeks ago I noticed that the engine would tend to stumble if
>    I
>    >> A would floor the throttle, then clear its throat and pull. For
>    example,
>    >> A I like to heel-and-toe, just because, and when blipping the
>    throttle it
>    >> A would stumble instead of rev. The engine also felt a little
>    rougher, as
>    >> A though it vibrated more than I remembered it. I don't remember if
>    this
>    >> A was before or after I did a short tune-up, by adjusting the valve
>    lash
>    >> A (I have mechanical lifters), and cleaning the K&N air filter by
>    >> A applying K&N filter oil, etc. or if it is irrelevant. So I was
>    messing
>    >> A around in the engine bay recently...
>    >>
>    >>
>    >> A This weekend the engine felt considerably worse. It felt like it
>    would
>    >> A stumble under partial throttle as well. It would stumble a little
>    bit
>    >> A under trailing throttle going downhill as well, so I don't think
>    it is
>    >> A a clogged fuel filter.
>    >>
>    >>
>    >> A Oil temp is perfect. Oil pressure is perfect. Water temp is
>    perfect.
>    >> A The engine idles perfectly. But if you floor the gas from idle,
>    it'll
>    >> A stall. The engine doesn't feel crisp, it feels bloated and soft,
>    if
>    >> A that makes sense. It feels rough, and it feels like it
>    occasionally
>    >> A stumbles under constant throttle at highway speed. It pulls hard
>    when
>    >> A accelerating, but I don't think as hard as it used to, or as high
>    (I
>    >> A have a 6500 rpm limiting chip in the MSD that it used to pull very
>    >> A easily to).
>    >>
>    >>
>    >> A Suggestions for where to begin looking? And other info that would
>    help
>    >> A in troubleshooting?
>    >>
>    >>
>    >> !DSPAM:54568258260291209923907!
>    >> _______________________________________________
>    >>
>    >> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>    >>
>    >> DeTomaso mailing list
>    >> [11]DeTomaso at poca.com
>    >> [12]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>    >>
>    >>
>    >> !DSPAM:54568258260291209923907!
>    >
>    >
>    > _______________________________________________
>    >
>    > Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>    >
>    > DeTomaso mailing list
>    > [13]DeTomaso at poca.com
>    > [14]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>    _______________________________________________
>    Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>    DeTomaso mailing list
>    [15]DeTomaso at poca.com
>    [16]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>
> References
>
>    1. mailto:jgkrenton at comcast.net
>    2. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
>    3. mailto:pantera01826 at rogers.com
>    4. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
>    5. mailto:pantera01826 at rogers.com
>    6. mailto:pantera01826 at rogers.com
>    7. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
>    8. mailto:thomas at hax.se
>    9. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
>   10. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
>   11. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>   12. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>   13. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>   14. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>   15. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>   16. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at poca.com
> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
   Water in the dist cap sounds more likely.

   Michael

   On Nov 3, 2014 8:48 AM, "Charles McCall" <[1]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
   wrote:

     A  A Thanks Jeff. It isn't unusually humid here and the car is
     always stored
     A  A indoors. As I was writing this, however, it occured to me that
     it isn't
     A  A imposible that some wA!ter may have entered the air cleaner and
     dropped
     A  A into the carb while washing the car. I'm usually pretty careful
     with
     A  A where I aim the hose, but I couldn't swear that the engine
     stayed dry,
     A  A or when opening the decklid when wet, some wA!ter may have run
     off near
     A  A the cleaner...
     A  A A
     A  A I will take the air cleaner off and see if I see a healthy
     squirt from
     A  A the acclerator pump. I don't think it would be fuel pump or
     clogged
     A  A fuel filter, as it stumbles under trailing throttle as well, it
     it can
     A  A provide enough fuel for sustainted 115mph running
     A  A A
     A  A Could it be electrical? My last MSD 6AL gave some really weird
     symptoms
     A  A that I thought were carb-related before I changed the box and
     all my
     A  A problems went away. I'll go step-by-step
     A  A On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 12:55 AM, <[1][2]jgkrenton at comcast.net>
     wrote:
     A  A Charlie:
     A  A How's the weather??
     A  A Your problem sort of sounds like it could be water in the fuel
     to me.A
     A  A Just a drop can be a problem and once you get it in there, it
     can hang
     A  A around a long time.A
     A  A As already mentioned, do the usual things to make sure you
     didn't
     A  A "introduce" the problem during the recent tuning.AA  Take the
     air
     A  A cleaner off and see if that makes any difference.AA  Check the
     timing
     A  A (yes, a pain on the Pantera). Make sure the accelerator pump is
     A  A squirting. Check the fuel pressure/fuel pump etc.AA  I have
     also been
     A  A recently bit by a bad coil and a bad fuel pump.AA  Don't rule
     anything
     A  A out.
     A  A Then dump some "fuel dryer" in the tank and run it a bit to see
     if that
     A  A helps.AA  Here in Seattle, water in the fuel is a common
     problem.
     A  A The fuel dryer should help, but there is also the tried and
     true "rag
     A  A tune".
     A  A You have to be careful with this one, but the idea is to rev
     the engine
     A  A a bit by hand with the air cleaner off.A AA  Then when the
     engine is
     A  A reving a bit, maybe 2500 RPM, shove a big rag over the carb for
     just a
     A  A second. (The air-horns, choke, secondary venturies will keep
     the rag
     A  A from being sucked into the engine). The rag acts like a massive
     choke
     A  A and the engine will smoke and die if you leave the rag there
     for more
     A  A than a few seconds.AA  But what this does is raise the full
     engine
     A  A vacuum up above the throttle plates and jets/ bleeds to the
     A  A air-horn/rag level.AA  This "extra" vacuum will draw any water
     out of
     A  A the jets/bleeds where the "normal" vacuum often is not strong
     enough to
     A  A pull any water out of the jets.
     A  A If your carb is a Holley, you can pull the float chambers off
     too and
     A  A make sure they don't have water in them....
     A  A Good luck.
     A  A Jeff/2467
     A  A
     A __________________________________________________________________
     A  A From: "McCall, Charles" <[2][3]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
     A  A To: "Mark Charlton" <[3][4]pantera01826 at rogers.com>
     A  A Cc: "DeTomaso Mail List" <[4][5]detomaso at poca.com>
     A  A Sent: Sunday, November 2, 2014 11:46:48 AM
     A  A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for suggestions
     A  A Thanks Mark, but I used 3 full tanks of gas in the past 2 days
     :-o
     A  A The problem has gotten slowly worse, I think.
     A  A -----Original Message-----
     A  A From: Mark Charlton [mailto:[5][6]pantera01826 at rogers.com]
     A  A Sent: domingo, 2 de noviembre de 2014 20:43
     A  A To: Charles McCall
     A  A Cc: DeTomaso Mail List
     A  A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for suggestions
     A  A Charlie,
     A  A I had a very similar experience with my car during a long tour
     in
     A  A western
     A  A Canada. We checked everything and concluded it must be a carb
     issue.
     A  A After a
     A  A full tear-down of the carb revealed nothing wrong at all, I
     filled the
     A  A car
     A  A (it was 3/4 empty) and the car ran fine again. We concluded
     that a
     A  A stale
     A  A batch of 94 octane gas (not commonly available) caused the
     issue. With
     A  A any
     A  A luck that will be your case too I hope.
     A  A Mark Charlton
     A  A [6][7]pantera01826 at rogers.com
     A  A On Nov 2, 2014, at 2:20 PM, Charles McCall
     <[7][8]charlesmccall at gmail.com>
     A  A wrote:
     A  A > I haven't checked timing, but wouldn't that make the engine
     run hot?
     A  A >
     A  A > Would that explain the stumble? It might explain why it
     doesn't feel
     A  A as
     A  A > crisp as it should
     A  A >
     A  A > -----Original Message-----
     A  A > From: thomas [mailto:[8][9]thomas at hax.se]
     A  A > Sent: domingo, 2 de noviembre de 2014 20:18
     A  A > To: Charles McCall
     A  A > Cc: <[9][10]detomaso at poca.com>
     A  A > Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Unhappy motor - looking for
     suggestions
     A  A >
     A  A > The distributor gear pin?
     A  A >
     A  A > Checked timing?
     A  A >
     A  A >
     A  A >> 2 nov 2014 kl. 20:13 skrev Charles McCall
     A  A <[10][11]charlesmccall at gmail.com>:
     A  A >>
     A  A >> A Hi all
     A  A >>
     A  A >>
     A  A >> A I just got back from a Supercar event in northern Spain
     with 35
     A  A cars
     A  A >> A attending - Lambo, Ferrari, Viper, Porsche, and, as usual,
     a lone
     A  A >> A DeTomaso!
     A  A >>
     A  A >>
     A  A >> A The highlight for me without a doubt was an 8-minute burst
     on the
     A  A >> A highway with the police clearing the way for us, cruising
     at a
     A  A steady
     A  A >> A GPS-indicated 180 k/hr in a 35 car convoy... the people
     out for a
     A  A >> A Sunday drive must have had their minds boggled...
     A  A >>
     A  A >>
     A  A >> A Anyway, my engine is not happy. This morning in the hotel
     parking
     A  A lot I
     A  A >> A really thought that we'd have to skip today's event
     because it
     A  A wouldn't
     A  A >> A start and didn't sound like it was even thinking about
     starting.
     A  A Took
     A  A >> A probably 5 minutes of crank-wait-crank-wait before it
     fired.
     A  A Yesterday
     A  A >> A at the gas station it took 2-3 minutes to start, something
     that
     A  A has
     A  A >> A never, ever happened before. It is really hard to describe
     the
     A  A problem
     A  A >> A so much of it is "feel", but I'll do my best.
     A  A >>
     A  A >>
     A  A >> A A few weeks ago I noticed that the engine would tend to
     stumble if
     A  A I
     A  A >> A would floor the throttle, then clear its throat and pull.
     For
     A  A example,
     A  A >> A I like to heel-and-toe, just because, and when blipping
     the
     A  A throttle it
     A  A >> A would stumble instead of rev. The engine also felt a
     little
     A  A rougher, as
     A  A >> A though it vibrated more than I remembered it. I don't
     remember if
     A  A this
     A  A >> A was before or after I did a short tune-up, by adjusting
     the valve
     A  A lash
     A  A >> A (I have mechanical lifters), and cleaning the K&N air
     filter by
     A  A >> A applying K&N filter oil, etc. or if it is irrelevant. So I
     was
     A  A messing
     A  A >> A around in the engine bay recently...
     A  A >>
     A  A >>
     A  A >> A This weekend the engine felt considerably worse. It felt
     like it
     A  A would
     A  A >> A stumble under partial throttle as well. It would stumble a
     little
     A  A bit
     A  A >> A under trailing throttle going downhill as well, so I don't
     think
     A  A it is
     A  A >> A a clogged fuel filter.
     A  A >>
     A  A >>
     A  A >> A Oil temp is perfect. Oil pressure is perfect. Water temp
     is
     A  A perfect.
     A  A >> A The engine idles perfectly. But if you floor the gas from
     idle,
     A  A it'll
     A  A >> A stall. The engine doesn't feel crisp, it feels bloated and
     soft,
     A  A if
     A  A >> A that makes sense. It feels rough, and it feels like it
     A  A occasionally
     A  A >> A stumbles under constant throttle at highway speed. It
     pulls hard
     A  A when
     A  A >> A accelerating, but I don't think as hard as it used to, or
     as high
     A  A (I
     A  A >> A have a 6500 rpm limiting chip in the MSD that it used to
     pull very
     A  A >> A easily to).
     A  A >>
     A  A >>
     A  A >> A Suggestions for where to begin looking? And other info
     that would
     A  A help
     A  A >> A in troubleshooting?
     A  A >>
     A  A >>
     A  A >> !DSPAM:54568258260291209923907!
     A  A >> _______________________________________________
     A  A >>
     A  A >> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
     A  A >>
     A  A >> DeTomaso mailing list
     A  A >> [11][12]DeTomaso at poca.com
     A  A >> [12][13]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
     A  A >>
     A  A >>
     A  A >> !DSPAM:54568258260291209923907!
     A  A >
     A  A >
     A  A > _______________________________________________
     A  A >
     A  A > Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
     A  A >
     A  A > DeTomaso mailing list
     A  A > [13][14]DeTomaso at poca.com
     A  A > [14][15]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
     A  A _______________________________________________
     A  A Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
     A  A DeTomaso mailing list
     A  A [15][16]DeTomaso at poca.com
     A  A [16][17]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
     References
     A  A 1. mailto:[18]jgkrenton at comcast.net
     A  A 2. mailto:[19]charlesmccall at gmail.com
     A  A 3. mailto:[20]pantera01826 at rogers.com
     A  A 4. mailto:[21]detomaso at poca.com
     A  A 5. mailto:[22]pantera01826 at rogers.com
     A  A 6. mailto:[23]pantera01826 at rogers.com
     A  A 7. mailto:[24]charlesmccall at gmail.com
     A  A 8. mailto:[25]thomas at hax.se
     A  A 9. mailto:[26]detomaso at poca.com
     A  10. mailto:[27]charlesmccall at gmail.com
     A  11. mailto:[28]DeTomaso at poca.com
     A  12. [29]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
     A  13. mailto:[30]DeTomaso at poca.com
     A  14. [31]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
     A  15. mailto:[32]DeTomaso at poca.com
     A  16. [33]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
     _______________________________________________
     Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
     DeTomaso mailing list
     [34]DeTomaso at poca.com
     [35]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com

References

   1. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
   2. mailto:jgkrenton at comcast.net
   3. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
   4. mailto:pantera01826 at rogers.com
   5. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
   6. mailto:pantera01826 at rogers.com
   7. mailto:pantera01826 at rogers.com
   8. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
   9. mailto:thomas at hax.se
  10. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
  11. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
  12. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
  13. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
  14. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
  15. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
  16. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
  17. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
  18. mailto:jgkrenton at comcast.net
  19. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
  20. mailto:pantera01826 at rogers.com
  21. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
  22. mailto:pantera01826 at rogers.com
  23. mailto:pantera01826 at rogers.com
  24. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
  25. mailto:thomas at hax.se
  26. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
  27. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com
  28. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
  29. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
  30. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
  31. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
  32. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
  33. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
  34. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
  35. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com


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