[DeTomaso] Documentation of Panteras increased value
shawkins777 at comcast.net
shawkins777 at comcast.net
Wed Mar 26 18:51:50 EDT 2014
You'd be surprised what you can do with just an OBD2 communicator/code reader and a repair manual.
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: "Boyd Casey" <boyd411 at gmail.com>
To: "Bill Lewis" <lotus0005 at hotmail.com>
Cc: "De Tomaso List" <detomaso at poca.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2014 5:34:56 PM
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Documentation of Panteras increased value
I think part of the problem is that when many of us were growing up we
learned how to work on cars (and motorcycles) so many of the new cars are
not really serviceable by the backyard mechanic. With the computerised
systems you need $100,000 diagnostic machines just to figure out what's
going on.
Boyd
On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 6:21 PM, Bill Lewis <lotus0005 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> My question: are people (mainly males) age 40 and under, interested in
> vehicles (cars, motorcycles, etc.)? What % of them are going to spend
> many hours in the garage working/admiring vehicles like us? Are they
> going to have an interest to buy any vehicle of any year model, other
> than their daily drivers? ---BILL Lewis
> __________________________________________________________________
>
> From: michael at michaelshortt.com
> Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 18:09:11 -0400
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Documentation of Panteras increased value
> To: lashdeep at yahoo.com
> CC: dave at damardirect.com; rob at dumoulins.net; lotus0005 at hotmail.com;
> detomaso at poca.com
> At Amelia Island a few weeks ago, I noticed that most of the Cords,
> Horst, Stutz and older top of the line cars were owned by the 45-60
> set, the dune buggies and muscle cars were owned by really much older
> men, I think the difference is becoming those who bought what they
> loved and those who buy and enjoy as an investment as much as for
> driving.
> Michael Shortt
> The old dudes were smiling more, that counts for something.
> On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 6:02 PM, LS <[1]lashdeep at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> I'm sure this discussion happened in the 1980s when the crowd
> that
> loved 1920s and 1930s cars started to pass away.
> Yet, those cars are still valuable now.
> Bugattis are owned by guys in their 60s, yet they were made long
> before
> any of them were born.
> I have cars that were made before I was born as well.
> There is a lot more exposure for old cars in general today than
> there
> has ever been. The age group that was born after a particular
> type of
> car was made will have an appreciation for them through FB,
> Youtube,
> Pinterest, etc.
> Who knows what will happen in the next few decades though...
> LS
> central
> wines-spirits est 1934
> 625 e street nw
> washington, dc 20004
> [1][2]centralwines.com
> [2][3]facebook.com/CentralLiquors
> 202-737-2800
>
> __________________________________________________________________
> From: Dave <[4]dave at damardirect.com>
> To: Rob Dumoulin <[5]rob at dumoulins.net>; Bill Lewis
> <[6]lotus0005 at hotmail.com>
> Cc: De Tomaso List <[7]detomaso at poca.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2014 3:45 PM
>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Documentation of Panteras increased value
>
> How about the cars like a '32 Cadillac16 cyl? Cars that fall in that
> caliber, I would think are worrying about who will become the future
> caretakers.
> IndyDave
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: Rob Dumoulin [mailto:[3][8]rob at dumoulins.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2014 5:42 PM
> To: Bill Lewis
> Cc: De Tomaso List
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Documentation of Panteras increased value
> Response inline
>
> On Mar 25, 2014 12:56 PM, "Bill Lewis" <[4][9]lotus0005 at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > I think about this frequently and have mentioned it on here
> before
> -
> > about the "aging & graying" of the American auto enthusiast. I
> don't
> > know if there is anything that can be done about the (seeming)
> lack of
> > interest in vehicles of contemporary male youths. First
> question
> is,
> > is that true? Then, if true - why? Then, can it be turned
> around?
> > -----------------------------------------
> > -------------- -I think that if I were GM, instead of spending
> $$$$ on
> > racing Corvettes, I would produce a 21st century version of the
> old TV
> > "Route 66" series. And, if I were Harley Davidson, I would
> churn
> out a
> > bunch of the old motorcycle-gang B movies. I mean, if you want
> kids to
> > smoke, what do you do - you have cool characters in TV/movies
> smoke.
> I can see Senate hearings to ban sports cars because they represent
> what is wrong with youth.
> .
> > ---BILL Lewis
>
> > From: [5][10]terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov
> > To: [6][11]scscottc at gmail.com; [7][12]detomaso at poca.com
>
> > Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 15:44:38 +0000
> > Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Documentation of Panteras increased
> value
> > I agree. But I think the people who own their Pantera's now
> (today)
> will alway
> > s drive them!
> > I know I go through withdrawal if I go too long without firing up
> and
> driving my
> > Pantera.
> >
> > Our cars will live on, but I think the next generations++ might
> not
> > drive
> them a
> > s much. In 2035 it
> > would be fun to look down and see a Pantera blowing away electric
> cars
> > on
> the hi
> > ghway. ;-)
> > Of course availability of gas might be a problem. <heh heh>
> >
> >
> > Terry W. Himes
> > JPL Jet Propulsion Laboratory
> > Deep Impact Sequence Team Lead
> > Deep Impact Spacecraft Engineer & Activity Lead Rosetta/MEX/VEX
> > Sequence Team Lead
> > Phone: (818) 393-6261
> > Cell: (818) 653-8213
> > Fax: (818) 393-3147
>
> > [8][13]thimes at jpl.nasa.gov<mailto:[9][14]thimes at jpl.nasa.gov>
> >
> >
> > From: Scott Carpenter
> <[10][15]scscottc at gmail.com<mailto:[11][16]scscottc at gmail.com>>
>
> > Date: Tuesday, March 25, 2014 7:55 AM
> > To: De Tomaso List
>
> <[12][17]detomaso at poca.com<mailto:[13][18]detomaso at poca.com>>
>
> > Subject: [DeTomaso] Documentation of Panteras increased value
> >
> > I've been with Hagerty since I got my Pantera fourteen years ago.
> > Originally I had my Pantera on an agreed upon value policy of
> $35,000,
> > last year I bumped it up to $60,000. I've never had to make a
> claim
> > so I guess so far I am happy with them. If values keep going up I
> > will
> probably
> > look at bumping it up in the next year or two.
> >
> > As someone who will probably never sell I am torn about the raise
> in
> > values. While I think it is great that the Pantera is finally
> given
> > some recognition for being the great car we all know it is, I
> don't
> > want it to become worth so much that it starts to make people not
> want to drive them.
> > Personally even if my Pantera is worth $50-70K it is still a
> viable
> > risk
> to
> > take for the same nice weekend drives that I usually take it on...
> If
> > it were to drastically go up to say $150K then I might start to
> > question the sanity of driving it amongst a sea of Pickups, SUVs
> and
> > Minivans where the drivers may or may not be busy texting or
> yelling
> > at the kids in back to see my tiny little Italian hot rod.
> >
> > Scott
> > #1523
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________ Detomaso Forum
> Managed
>
> > by POCA DeTomaso mailing list [14][19]DeTomaso at poca.com
> > [15][20]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> > Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> >
> > DeTomaso mailing list
>
> > [16][21]DeTomaso at poca.com
> > [17][22]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> DeTomaso mailing list
>
> [18][23]DeTomaso at poca.com
> [19][24]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> References
> 1. [25]http://centralwines.com/
> 2. [26]http://facebook.com/CentralLiquors
> 3. mailto:[27]rob at dumoulins.net
>
> 4. mailto:[28]lotus0005 at hotmail.com
> 5. mailto:[29]terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov
> 6. mailto:[30]scscottc at gmail.com
> 7. mailto:[31]detomaso at poca.com
>
> 8. mailto:[32]thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
> 9. mailto:[33]thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
> 10. mailto:[34]scscottc at gmail.com
> 11. mailto:[35]scscottc at gmail.com
> 12. mailto:[36]detomaso at poca.com
> 13. mailto:[37]detomaso at poca.com
> 14. mailto:[38]DeTomaso at poca.com
> 15. [39]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 16. mailto:[40]DeTomaso at poca.com
> 17. [41]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>
> 18. mailto:[42]DeTomaso at poca.com
> 19. [43]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> DeTomaso mailing list
> [44]DeTomaso at poca.com
> [45]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>
> --
> Michael L. Shortt
> Savannah, Georgia
> [46]www.michaelshortt.com
> [47]michael at michaelshortt.com
> 912-232-9390
>
> This email is protected by the Electronic Communications Privacy
> Act, 18 U.S.C. Sec. 2510-2521, is confidential and may be legally
> privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby
> notified
> that any retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this
> communication is strictly prohibited. Please reply to the sender that
> you
> have received this message in error, then delete it. Thank you
>
> References
>
> 1. mailto:lashdeep at yahoo.com
> 2. http://centralwines.com/
> 3. http://facebook.com/CentralLiquors
> 4. mailto:dave at damardirect.com
> 5. mailto:rob at dumoulins.net
> 6. mailto:lotus0005 at hotmail.com
> 7. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
> 8. mailto:rob at dumoulins.net
> 9. mailto:lotus0005 at hotmail.com
> 10. mailto:terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov
> 11. mailto:scscottc at gmail.com
> 12. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
> 13. mailto:thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
> 14. mailto:thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
> 15. mailto:scscottc at gmail.com
> 16. mailto:scscottc at gmail.com
> 17. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
> 18. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
> 19. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> 20. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 21. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> 22. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 23. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> 24. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 25. http://centralwines.com/
> 26. http://facebook.com/CentralLiquors
> 27. mailto:rob at dumoulins.net
> 28. mailto:lotus0005 at hotmail.com
> 29. mailto:terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov
> 30. mailto:scscottc at gmail.com
> 31. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
> 32. mailto:thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
> 33. mailto:thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
> 34. mailto:scscottc at gmail.com
> 35. mailto:scscottc at gmail.com
> 36. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
> 37. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
> 38. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> 39. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 40. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> 41. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 42. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> 43. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 44. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> 45. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 46. http://www.michaelshortt.com/
> 47. mailto:michael at michaelshortt.com
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at poca.com
> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>
>
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
DeTomaso mailing list
DeTomaso at poca.com
http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
-------------- next part --------------
You'd be surprised what you can do with just an OBD2 communicator/code
reader and a repair manual.
Steve
__________________________________________________________________
From: "Boyd Casey" <boyd411 at gmail.com>
To: "Bill Lewis" <lotus0005 at hotmail.com>
Cc: "De Tomaso List" <detomaso at poca.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2014 5:34:56 PM
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Documentation of Panteras increased value
I think part of the problem is that when many of us were growing up we
learned how to work on cars (and motorcycles) so many of the new cars
are
not really serviceable by the backyard mechanic. With the computerised
systems you need $100,000 diagnostic machines just to figure out
what's
going on.
Boyd
On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 6:21 PM, Bill Lewis <lotus0005 at hotmail.com>
wrote:
> My question: are people (mainly males) age 40 and under,
interested in
> vehicles (cars, motorcycles, etc.)? What % of them are going to
spend
> many hours in the garage working/admiring vehicles like us? Are
they
> going to have an interest to buy any vehicle of any year model,
other
> than their daily drivers? ---BILL Lewis
>
__________________________________________________________________
>
> From: michael at michaelshortt.com
> Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 18:09:11 -0400
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Documentation of Panteras increased value
> To: lashdeep at yahoo.com
> CC: dave at damardirect.com; rob at dumoulins.net;
lotus0005 at hotmail.com;
> detomaso at poca.com
> At Amelia Island a few weeks ago, I noticed that most of the
Cords,
> Horst, Stutz and older top of the line cars were owned by the
45-60
> set, the dune buggies and muscle cars were owned by really much
older
> men, I think the difference is becoming those who bought what they
> loved and those who buy and enjoy as an investment as much as for
> driving.
> Michael Shortt
> The old dudes were smiling more, that counts for something.
> On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 6:02 PM, LS <[1]lashdeep at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> I'm sure this discussion happened in the 1980s when the crowd
> that
> loved 1920s and 1930s cars started to pass away.
> Yet, those cars are still valuable now.
> Bugattis are owned by guys in their 60s, yet they were made
long
> before
> any of them were born.
> I have cars that were made before I was born as well.
> There is a lot more exposure for old cars in general today
than
> there
> has ever been. The age group that was born after a particular
> type of
> car was made will have an appreciation for them through FB,
> Youtube,
> Pinterest, etc.
> Who knows what will happen in the next few decades though...
> LS
> central
> wines-spirits est 1934
> 625 e street nw
> washington, dc 20004
> [1][2]centralwines.com
> [2][3]facebook.com/CentralLiquors
> 202-737-2800
>
>
__________________________________________________________________
> From: Dave <[4]dave at damardirect.com>
> To: Rob Dumoulin <[5]rob at dumoulins.net>; Bill Lewis
> <[6]lotus0005 at hotmail.com>
> Cc: De Tomaso List <[7]detomaso at poca.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2014 3:45 PM
>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Documentation of Panteras increased
value
>
> How about the cars like a '32 Cadillac16 cyl? Cars that fall in
that
> caliber, I would think are worrying about who will become the
future
> caretakers.
> IndyDave
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: Rob Dumoulin [mailto:[3][8]rob at dumoulins.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2014 5:42 PM
> To: Bill Lewis
> Cc: De Tomaso List
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Documentation of Panteras increased
value
> Response inline
>
> On Mar 25, 2014 12:56 PM, "Bill Lewis"
<[4][9]lotus0005 at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > I think about this frequently and have mentioned it on
here
> before
> -
> > about the "aging & graying" of the American auto
enthusiast. I
> don't
> > know if there is anything that can be done about the
(seeming)
> lack of
> > interest in vehicles of contemporary male youths. First
> question
> is,
> > is that true? Then, if true - why? Then, can it be
turned
> around?
> > -----------------------------------------
> > -------------- -I think that if I were GM, instead of
spending
> $$$$ on
> > racing Corvettes, I would produce a 21st century version
of the
> old TV
> > "Route 66" series. And, if I were Harley Davidson, I
would
> churn
> out a
> > bunch of the old motorcycle-gang B movies. I mean, if you
want
> kids to
> > smoke, what do you do - you have cool characters in
TV/movies
> smoke.
> I can see Senate hearings to ban sports cars because they
represent
> what is wrong with youth.
> .
> > ---BILL Lewis
>
> > From: [5][10]terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov
> > To: [6][11]scscottc at gmail.com; [7][12]detomaso at poca.com
>
> > Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 15:44:38 +0000
> > Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Documentation of Panteras
increased
> value
> > I agree. But I think the people who own their Pantera's now
> (today)
> will alway
> > s drive them!
> > I know I go through withdrawal if I go too long without
firing up
> and
> driving my
> > Pantera.
> >
> > Our cars will live on, but I think the next generations++
might
> not
> > drive
> them a
> > s much. In 2035 it
> > would be fun to look down and see a Pantera blowing away
electric
> cars
> > on
> the hi
> > ghway. ;-)
> > Of course availability of gas might be a problem. <heh heh>
> >
> >
> > Terry W. Himes
> > JPL Jet Propulsion Laboratory
> > Deep Impact Sequence Team Lead
> > Deep Impact Spacecraft Engineer & Activity Lead
Rosetta/MEX/VEX
> > Sequence Team Lead
> > Phone: (818) 393-6261
> > Cell: (818) 653-8213
> > Fax: (818) 393-3147
>
> >
[8][13]thimes at jpl.nasa.gov<mailto:[9][14]thimes at jpl.nasa.gov>
> >
> >
> > From: Scott Carpenter
>
<[10][15]scscottc at gmail.com<mailto:[11][16]scscottc at gmail.com>>
>
> > Date: Tuesday, March 25, 2014 7:55 AM
> > To: De Tomaso List
>
> <[12][17]detomaso at poca.com<mailto:[13][18]detomaso at poca.com>>
>
> > Subject: [DeTomaso] Documentation of Panteras increased value
> >
> > I've been with Hagerty since I got my Pantera fourteen years
ago.
> > Originally I had my Pantera on an agreed upon value policy of
> $35,000,
> > last year I bumped it up to $60,000. I've never had to make
a
> claim
> > so I guess so far I am happy with them. If values keep going
up I
> > will
> probably
> > look at bumping it up in the next year or two.
> >
> > As someone who will probably never sell I am torn about the
raise
> in
> > values. While I think it is great that the Pantera is
finally
> given
> > some recognition for being the great car we all know it is, I
> don't
> > want it to become worth so much that it starts to make people
not
> want to drive them.
> > Personally even if my Pantera is worth $50-70K it is still a
> viable
> > risk
> to
> > take for the same nice weekend drives that I usually take it
on...
> If
> > it were to drastically go up to say $150K then I might start
to
> > question the sanity of driving it amongst a sea of Pickups,
SUVs
> and
> > Minivans where the drivers may or may not be busy texting or
> yelling
> > at the kids in back to see my tiny little Italian hot rod.
> >
> > Scott
> > #1523
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________ Detomaso
Forum
> Managed
>
> > by POCA DeTomaso mailing list [14][19]DeTomaso at poca.com
> >
[15][20]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> > Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> >
> > DeTomaso mailing list
>
> > [16][21]DeTomaso at poca.com
> > [17][22]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> DeTomaso mailing list
>
> [18][23]DeTomaso at poca.com
> [19][24]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> References
> 1. [25]http://centralwines.com/
> 2. [26]http://facebook.com/CentralLiquors
> 3. mailto:[27]rob at dumoulins.net
>
> 4. mailto:[28]lotus0005 at hotmail.com
> 5. mailto:[29]terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov
> 6. mailto:[30]scscottc at gmail.com
> 7. mailto:[31]detomaso at poca.com
>
> 8. mailto:[32]thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
> 9. mailto:[33]thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
> 10. mailto:[34]scscottc at gmail.com
> 11. mailto:[35]scscottc at gmail.com
> 12. mailto:[36]detomaso at poca.com
> 13. mailto:[37]detomaso at poca.com
> 14. mailto:[38]DeTomaso at poca.com
> 15. [39]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 16. mailto:[40]DeTomaso at poca.com
> 17. [41]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>
> 18. mailto:[42]DeTomaso at poca.com
> 19. [43]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> DeTomaso mailing list
> [44]DeTomaso at poca.com
> [45]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>
> --
> Michael L. Shortt
> Savannah, Georgia
> [46]www.michaelshortt.com
> [47]michael at michaelshortt.com
> 912-232-9390
>
> This email is protected by the Electronic Communications Privacy
> Act, 18 U.S.C. Sec. 2510-2521, is confidential and may be legally
> privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby
> notified
> that any retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this
> communication is strictly prohibited. Please reply to the sender
that
> you
> have received this message in error, then delete it. Thank you
>
> References
>
> 1. mailto:lashdeep at yahoo.com
> 2. http://centralwines.com/
> 3. http://facebook.com/CentralLiquors
> 4. mailto:dave at damardirect.com
> 5. mailto:rob at dumoulins.net
> 6. mailto:lotus0005 at hotmail.com
> 7. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
> 8. mailto:rob at dumoulins.net
> 9. mailto:lotus0005 at hotmail.com
> 10. mailto:terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov
> 11. mailto:scscottc at gmail.com
> 12. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
> 13. mailto:thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
> 14. mailto:thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
> 15. mailto:scscottc at gmail.com
> 16. mailto:scscottc at gmail.com
> 17. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
> 18. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
> 19. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> 20. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 21. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> 22. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 23. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> 24. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 25. http://centralwines.com/
> 26. http://facebook.com/CentralLiquors
> 27. mailto:rob at dumoulins.net
> 28. mailto:lotus0005 at hotmail.com
> 29. mailto:terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov
> 30. mailto:scscottc at gmail.com
> 31. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
> 32. mailto:thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
> 33. mailto:thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
> 34. mailto:scscottc at gmail.com
> 35. mailto:scscottc at gmail.com
> 36. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
> 37. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
> 38. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> 39. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 40. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> 41. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 42. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> 43. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 44. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> 45. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 46. http://www.michaelshortt.com/
> 47. mailto:michael at michaelshortt.com
>
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