[DeTomaso] FW: Moment of (sad) truth
jderyke at aol.com
jderyke at aol.com
Fri Jul 18 16:46:19 EDT 2014
In going thru somewhat the same drill on our car decades ago, I found that if one tightens up the wire-retaining nut on any electric gauge sender without adding a second nut to back up during tightening, its quite possible to pull the threaded shaft loose from the inside of the sender and basically destroy it.
1)- screw the original nut down only finger tight.
2) add the loop connector and tighten the second (top) nut you just added AGAINST the lower nut, not against the bakelite insulator, while , holding both nuts with wrenches.
The idea is to not stretch the threaded rod out of the sender. Senders are threaded 10-32 SAE and extra nuts are available at any hardware store for pennies apiece. Good lick- J Deryke.
-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Stroj <npdrs at maui.net>
To: 'Charles McCall' <charlesmccall at gmail.com>; 'Andy May' <andymay24 at gmail.com>
Cc: 'Pantera list serve' <detomaso at poca.com>
Sent: Fri, Jul 18, 2014 4:42 am
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] FW: Moment of (sad) truth
Hi,
Thanks for your suggestions, it makes sense; will install mechanical
gauge and check this before going any further!
My car got VDO gauges, so was assuming they would be correct, but, of
course, need also to check the sender.
All the best,
Robert
From: Charles McCall [mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 1:02 AM
To: Andy May
Cc: Robert Stroj; Pantera list serve
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] FW: Moment of (sad) truth
I also have a mechanical gauge installed because I didn't like what my
stock pressure gauge was telling me. It was doing weird things that I
assumed couldn't be possible, such as wildly fluctuating pressure. In
fact my real pressure is rock solid as indicated by the mechanical
gauge.
Another data point that the stock gauge may get flaky on you and lead
you to incorrect assumptions
On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 12:21 PM, Andy May <[1]andymay24 at gmail.com>
wrote:
Robert,
Don't make the assumption that your oil gauge indication bears any
relationship to what oil pressure you actually have at the engine!
Speaking from personal experience, the problem may very well be the
oil
pressure sender. Mine was jumping around all over - especially when
hot
- which I could not understand with my reasonably freshly built
engine.
I replaced the electrical sender (a standard ford part) and also
fitted
an additional mechanical gauge via a T-connector just as a means of
"positive checking" as I had lost confidence in the electrical one.
Result - 55psi normal running and 40-45psi hot idle on the
mechanical
gauge and a much happier owner! The standard pantera gauge continues
to
present an approximation of pressure, but at least now its a pretty
stable approximation!
I suggest you hook up a mechanical gauge and check your oil pressure
with this before you tear into the motor.
Kind regards
Andy
On Jul 18, 2014 9:47 AM, "Robert Stroj" <[1][2]npdrs at maui.net>
wrote:
Hi Sean,
Yes, as you pointed out it is a real problem that I don't have the
specs.
As well, looking at the price, it seems to me that they might not
be
Solid Rollers; that price looks like it would fit to regular solid
flat tappet lifters?
I got all the original receipts with the car and tried to call
vendor of the cam to find out if he might have somewhere any spec,
but based on receipt it was not possible to find anything...it is
10
years past since they were purchased; same was the situation with
the head, so I do not know which SS valves are used, spring rates
or
which roller rockers are installed.
I guess, first I need to check if my bearings are OK as I really
have a bad feeling with oil pressure showing really low when
engine
is hot.
Is there any way to check that short of pulling the motor out and
opening the bottom; guess not?
Thanks, Robert
-----Original Message-----
From: Sean Korb [mailto:[2][3]spkorb at gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2014 9:01 AM
To: [3][4]detomaso at poca.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] FW: Moment of (sad) truth
It's hard to tell with a custom grind Isky. A They make a lot of
pretty interesting flat tappet camshafts but I'm not familiar with
their roller line. A If you don't have a cam card you really
should
make your own and get the specification. A A degree wheel and
removing the front accessories and water pump is kind of a pain
but
it really needs to be done.
That said, you can find TDC without doing all that work. A Just
pull
a spark plug on #1 and find it. A Make sure it matches your
harmonic
balancer. A It does sound like timing since you are having trouble
starting it when it is hot,
My stock 1971 motor made 255HP at the wheels. A Hydraulic stock
grind on the camshaft and 10.5:1 compression with stock heads. A
The
CHI heads *could* give you more power but unless you know your
camshaft will take advantage of it, the stock heads are already
pretty darn good and you won't see that much with just a head
swap.
A If you are running something like 0.055 lift or better with
aggressive duration, you should really be getting more power and
it
would be carburetor and timing to check next.
Oh hey! A You're running solid rollers? A Maybe your tappet
clearance should be adjusted. A If they are running really loose
that would rob you of a lot of power. A It would make a lot of
noise
too.
sean
On Wed, Jul 16, 2014 at 2:20 PM, Robert Stroj
<[4][5]npdrs at maui.net>
wrote:
> A A Hi,
>
>
> A A First thanks to all for your suggestions and sorry for
delay
on coming
> A A back; was two weeks traveling without the internet
connection.
>
>
> A A My engine is not the one that was in the car; it is a A 4
bolt 351C,
> A A here are all the engine A spec as I got them from a
previous
owner:
>
>
> A A Engine
>
>
> A A CUI A A A A A A A A A : A A A A A 351
Cleveland
4V
>
>
> A A Heads A : A A A A A Australian (3) valve aluminum
polished heads
>
> A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A
A ($1,995)
>
> A A A A A A A A A A A A A A : A A A A A Polish
($175)
>
>
> A A Intake A : A A A A A Polished aluminum Hi-Rise ($525)
>
> A A A A A A A A A A A A A A : A A A A A Polish
($175)
>
>
> A A Carb A A A A A A A A : A A A A A 780 CFM
Holley
4-barrel carburetor
>
> A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A
A ($512.99 Inc Shipping)
>
>
> A A Cable A : A A A A A PI MotorSport Throttle Cable
($155)
>
>
> A A Valves : A A A A A Stainless Steel Exhaust/Intake
valves
($900)
>
>
> A A Cam A A A A A A A A : A A A A A ISKY Solid
Roller Camshaft with Lifters
> A A ($275)
>
> A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A
Custom
grind
>
>
> A A Rockers A A A A A : A A A A A Roller Rockers
($275)
>
>
> A A Chain A : A A A A A Duel Roller Chain ($57)
>
>
> A A Exhaust A A A A A : A A A A A GTS Coated Headers
and Mufflers ($850)
>
>
> A A Water Pump: A Aluminum High Flow ($208.65)
>
>
> A A Radiator A A A A A : A A A A A Aluminum Radiator
Assembly Pantera
>
> A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A
A Performance ($1,108.90)
>
>
> A A Starter : A A A A A High Performance Starter ($165)
>
>
> A A Oil Pan A A A A A A : A A A A A 10 Quart oil pan
with windage tray
> A A ($400)
>
>
> A A Ignition A A A A A A : A A A A A Mallory Unilite
Distributor, Mallory
> A A Coil, Mallory Spark
>
> A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A Plug
Wires ($280)
>
>
>
>
> A A What I am the most worried about is the thing that car dies
on idle
> A A after being driven hard and then it is really hard to
start;
once did
> A A not start at all.
>
> A A When hot like this it turns really hard, as if the battery
would be
> A A low, but when cold it turns really well; my worry is that
bearings
> A A could be really worn and once the oil gets thin it
increases
the
> A A friction inside the engine.
>
> A A The oil pressure gauge drops really low; when hot idling it
just jumps
> A A between 0 and 1/4 of the gauge.
>
>
> A A It all looks like I will need to do a complete rebuild and
will be
> A A looking to see which are good parts that I could
successfully
reuse;
> A A this is why Brent's motor configuration is really
interesting
as it
> A A uses same heads and intake manifold.
>
>
> A A I just got a lead to person that had a racing team using
Mustang in
> A A German Turing championship and is willing to help; hope to
meet him
> A A next week.
>
>
> A A All the best, Robert
>
>
> A A From: Pantdino [mailto:[5][6]pantdino at aol.com]
> A A Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2014 5:28 PM
> A A To: [6][7]boyd411 at gmail.com
> A A Cc: [7][8]npdrs at maui.net; [8][9]bjbstewart at yahoo.com;
[9][10]detomaso at poca.com
> A A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] FW: Moment of (sad) truth
>
>
>
> A A "Torque really means a lot more but the way the engine runs
and how the
> A A car drives is a lot more important then any dyne numbers. "
>
>
>
>
> A A HP is actually calculated from torque, and the HP number
the
dyno guy
> A A gives you is so full of "correction factors" it has to be
taken with a
> A A grain of salt I think in terms of comparing it to what
someone else
> A A gets on different dyno in a different city on a different
day
on a
> A A chassis vs engine dyno etc
>
>
> A A -----Original Message-----
> A A From: Boyd Casey <[1][10][11]boyd411 at gmail.com>
> A A To: Pantdino <[2][11][12]pantdino at aol.com>
> A A Cc: npdrs <[3][12][13]npdrs at maui.net>; Brent Stewart
<[4][13][14]bjbstewart at yahoo.com>;
> A A detomaso <[5][14][15]detomaso at poca.com>
> A A Sent: Tue, Jul 1, 2014 5:05 pm
> A A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] FW: Moment of (sad) truth
>
> A A Robert,
>
> A A Do you know if your 71 engine was the original engine that
came with
> A A your Pantera? (a numbers matching engine). Around 90% of
the
Cleveland
> A A engines made were not "high performance" engines. This link
explains
> A A how to help determine what type of engine yours was
> A A originally. [6]Cleveland guide A even though your engine
has
good heads
> A A it may have low compression pistons. You will only know
what
you
> A A actually have when you get inside your engine. In the
meantime you can
> A A do a compression check to make sure all your 8 cylinders
have
close to
> A A the same compression. You should also start with a good
tune
up. make
> A A sure you have the right plugs, make sure your timing is set
correctly.
> A A Depending on your cam a 7550 CFM carb may be to big for
your
engine (
> A A with a stock 351 ci displacement A and depending on your
pistons
> A A compression ratio and your cam 750 cfm may be to big. Lots
of
people
> A A thing bigger is better. To big a carb will do much more
harm
then good
> A A when it comes to losing power. A You also want to be sure
your carb is
> A A jetted and set properly. Getting the most out of an engine
is
like
> A A navigating. You have to know where you are , before you can
figure out
> A A how to get where you want to go. So you have to know what
you
have
> A A before you can figure out how to get the most out of it! HP
numbers are
> A A just numbers. Torque really means a lot more but the way
the
engine
> A A runs and how the car drives is a lot more important then
any
dyne
> A A numbers. You want a car wit good throttle response, a car
that revs up
> A A quickly when you hit the gas. Find a local mechanic that
knows
> A A Cleveland engines and preferably Panteras as well. Figure
out
what you
> A A actually have and how to maximize it before you start
throwing money at
> A A it. There are lots of good books on how to build Cleveland
engines as
> A A well as some great web sites dedicated to Cleveland
engines.
A Check out
> A A Clevelands forever (google it) or 351C.net. there are also
numerous
> A A books available at Amazon.com. You can also find loads of
free info on
> A A various forums on he web for free!
>
> A A Good Luck!
>
> A A Boyd
>
>
> A A On Tue, Jul 1, 2014 at 3:23 PM, Pantdino via DeTomaso
> A A <[7][15][16]detomaso at poca.com> wrote:
>
> A A A It is a Holley vacuum secondary unit fitted by Steve
Wilkinson-- he
> A A A said jetted for a Pantera.
>
> A A A -----Original Message-----
> A A A From: Robert Stroj <[8][16][17]npdrs at maui.net>
> A A A To: 'Brent Stewart' <[9][17][18]bjbstewart at yahoo.com>;
detomaso
> A A A <[10][18][19]detomaso at poca.com>
>
> A A A Sent: Tue, Jul 1, 2014 11:58 am
> A A A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] FW: Moment of (sad) truth
>
> A A A Hi Brent,
> A A A Thanks a lot, this is really good info!
> A A A What carburetor are you using?
> A A A Cheers,
> A A A Robert
>
> A A A From: Brent Stewart
[[1]mailto:[11][19][20]bjbstewart at yahoo.com]
>
> A A A Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2014 5:32 AM
>
> A A A To: Robert Stroj; [2][12][20][21]detomaso at poca.com
>
> A A A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] FW: Moment of (sad) truth
> A A A Hi Robert,
> A A A I have the same CHI heads and intake. A Here are my
build
specs
> A A incase
> A A A you want to utilize those in an engine update:
> A A A ENGINE SPECS:
> A A A Bennett Racing Dyno'd the engine and provided the spec
sheet. A The
> A A 351C
> A A A based 392 CID engine made 571 HP and 517 TQ @ 5800 RPM.
A Here are
> A A the
> A A A details of the build:
> A A A Parts list
> A A A . A A A A SCAT 3.85 Crankshaft, internally balanced
> A A A . A A A A SCAT 6.00 H Beam Rods
> A A A . A A A A Custom Ross Pistons
> A A A . A A A A Custom Bennett Racing Hydraulic Roller Cam
> A A A . A A A A Superformance Balancer
> A A A . A A A A Crane Link Bar Hydraulic Roller Lifters
> A A A . A A A A Comp Cams Pushrods
> A A A . A A A A Harland Sharp 4005 Roller Rockers
> A A A . A A A A CHI 228 3V aluminum Heads
> A A A . A A A A CHI high-rise intake
> A A A Build specs
> A A A . A A A A Bore: 4.030
> A A A . A A A A Crank: 3.850 9000 series
> A A A . A A A A Cam: 3018F-3039B 112
> A A A o A Intake Lobe: 242 @ .050 .366 LL
> A A A o A Exhaust Lobe: 250 @ .050 .363 LL
> A A A o A Lobe Separation: 112
> A A A . A A A A Pushrods: 7.850 Comp Cams HD
>
> A A A On Tuesday, July 1, 2014 8:06 AM, Robert Stroj
> A A <[1][3][13][21][22]npdrs at maui.net>
>
> A A A wrote:
> A A A So, finally, my '71 Pantera got through all the import
procedures
> A A and
> A A A is now
> A A A street legal in Europe/Germany!
> A A A Car is in very good shape, zero rust anywhere,
suspension
feels very
> A A A good to
> A A A drive (height adjustable koni set), brakes work well
(wilwood
> A A A conversion),
> A A A but there is something not right with the motor.
> A A A Engine is a older 351C rebuild using original
crankshaft
and
> A A pistons.
> A A A Some
> A A A years later it was fitted with CHI 3V heads and intake
system, SS
> A A A valves,
> A A A 780 Holley and GTS exhaust system.
> A A A When driving the cart was pulling well, but definitely
was not
> A A feeling
> A A A as
> A A A 400-500HP car; this is what I was sort of expecting
after
talking to
> A A A person
> A A A who rebuild the engine as well as previous owner...it
did
not really
> A A A feel as
> A A A 300HP car...
> A A A I had a chance to put it on the dyno at the friend's
garage and got
> A A the
> A A A following graph (please see the attached image); this
are
graphs for
> A A A adjusted power on the flywheel after recalculating
looses
between
> A A A engine and
> A A A wheels.
> A A A What was really interesting is that he had a chance to
test 2 other
> A A A panteras
> A A A recently; one was a client that had rebuilt engine
using
some
> A A "special
> A A A parts", bt I am not sure of the actual spec while the
other one was
> A A A black
> A A A GR4 replica that is currently listed for sale in
Germany
and was
> A A built
> A A A by
> A A A Braun Motorsport:
>
>
> A
A
[2][4][14][22][23]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-panter
a-gruppe-
> A A 4-m-his
>
> A A A t-strass
>
> A
A
enzul-neuaufbau-neuried-bei-m%C3%BCnche/159513949.html?lang=de&pag
eNumb
> A A A er=1&
>
> A
A
__lp=1&scopeId=C&sortOption.sortBy=creationTime&sortOption.sortOrd
er=DE
> A A A SCEND
>
> A
A
ING&makeModelVariant1.makeId=7400&makeModelVariant1.searchInFreete
xt=fa
> A A A lse&m
>
> A
A
akeModelVariant2.searchInFreetext=false&makeModelVariant3.searchIn
Freet
> A A A ext=f
> A A A alse&ambitCountry=DE&negativeFeatures=EXPORT
> A A A So, finally, my engine did not even reach 250HP,
another
rebuild
> A A A pantera
> A A A motor did just over 300HP while Braun pantera did very
nice 389HP;
> A A A there is
> A A A also Ford GT40 with racing motor in there; it did 410hp
but at much
> A A A higher
> A A A RPM.
> A A A The most impressive about the Braun car is how smooth
the
power
> A A curve
> A A A is.
> A A A So, now I am wondering where to go from here; could it
be
that it is
> A A as
> A A A simple as wrong cam choice?
> A A A If going to do a rebuild is there a good configuration
someone could
> A A A suggest
> A A A that would use CHI3V heads and intake, as I already got
those?
> A A A As well, I had something strange happen twice with the
gearbox; it
> A A got
> A A A out
> A A A of the 3rd gear by itself; would someone know if this
could be due
> A A to
> A A A any
> A A A wrong linkage adjustment?
> A A A Thanks, Robert
> A A A _______________________________________________
> A A A Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> A A A DeTomaso mailing list
>
> A A A [3][5][15][23][24]DeTomaso at poca.com
> A A A
[4][6][16][24][25]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> A A References
> A A A 1. [7]mailto:[17][25][26]npdrs at maui.net
> A A A 2.
> A
A
[8][18][26][27]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-g
ruppe-4-m
> A A -hist-s
> A A trass
> A A A 3. [9]mailto:[19][27][28]DeTomaso at poca.com
> A A A 4.
[10][20][28][29]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>
> A A _______________________________________________
> A A Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> A A DeTomaso mailing list
>
> A A [11][21][29][30]DeTomaso at poca.com
> A
A
[12][22][30][31]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> A A References
> A A A 1. mailto:[23][31][32]bjbstewart at yahoo.com?
> A A A 2. mailto:[24][32][33]detomaso at poca.com
> A A A 3. mailto:[25][33][34]npdrs at maui.net
> A A A 4.
> A
A
[26][34][35]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-grup
pe-4-m-hi
> A A s
> A A A 5. mailto:[27][35][36]DeTomaso at poca.com
> A A A 6.
[28][36][37]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> A A A 7. mailto:[29][37][38]npdrs at maui.net?
> A A A 8.
> A
A
[30][38][39]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-grup
pe-4-m-hi
> A A st-strass
> A A A 9. mailto:[31][39][40]DeTomaso at poca.com?
> A A A 10.
[32][40][41]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> A A A 11. mailto:[33][41][42]DeTomaso at poca.com
> A A A 12.
[34][42][43]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> A A _______________________________________________
> A A Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> A A DeTomaso mailing list
> A A [35][43][44]DeTomaso at poca.com
> A A
[36][44][45]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>
> References
>
> A A 1. mailto:[45][46]boyd411 at gmail.com
> A A 2. mailto:[46][47]pantdino at aol.com
> A A 3. mailto:[47][48]npdrs at maui.net
> A A 4. mailto:[48][49]bjbstewart at yahoo.com
> A A 5. mailto:[49][50]detomaso at poca.com
> A A 6.
>
[50][51]http://www.ebay.com/gds/Ford-351-Cleveland-Engines-Key-Facts-In
f
ormation-/10000000001410755/g.html
> A A 7. mailto:[51][52]detomaso at poca.com
> A A 8. mailto:[52][53]npdrs at maui.net
> A A 9. mailto:[53][54]bjbstewart at yahoo.com
> A 10. mailto:[54][55]detomaso at poca.com
> A 11. mailto:[55][56]bjbstewart at yahoo.com
> A 12. mailto:[56][57]detomaso at poca.com
> A 13. mailto:[57][58]npdrs at maui.net
> A 14.
[58][59]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-
m
-his
> A 15. mailto:[59][60]DeTomaso at poca.com
> A 16.
[60][61]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> A 17. mailto:[61][62]npdrs at maui.net
> A 18.
>
[62][63]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-
m
-hist-s
> A 19. mailto:[63][64]DeTomaso at poca.com
> A 20.
[64][65]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> A 21. mailto:[65][66]DeTomaso at poca.com
> A 22.
[66][67]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> A 23. mailto:[67][68]bjbstewart at yahoo.com
> A 24. mailto:[68][69]detomaso at poca.com
> A 25. mailto:[69][70]npdrs at maui.net
> A 26.
[70][71]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-
m
-his
> A 27. mailto:[71][72]DeTomaso at poca.com
> A 28.
[72][73]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> A 29. mailto:[73][74]npdrs at maui.net
> A 30.
>
[74][75]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-
m
-hist-strass
> A 31. mailto:[75][76]DeTomaso at poca.com
> A 32.
[76][77]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> A 33. mailto:[77][78]DeTomaso at poca.com
> A 34.
[78][79]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> A 35. mailto:[79][80]DeTomaso at poca.com
> A 36.
[80][81]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>
> DeTomaso mailing list
> [81][82]DeTomaso at poca.com
> [82][83]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>
>
--
Sean Korb [83][84]spkorb at spkorb.org [84][85]http://www.spkorb.org
'65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71
Pantera
#1382 "The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
"Computers are useless. A They can only give you answers." -P.
Picasso
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
DeTomaso mailing list
[85][86]DeTomaso at poca.com
[86][87]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
References
1. mailto:[88]npdrs at maui.net
2. mailto:[89]spkorb at gmail.com
3. mailto:[90]detomaso at poca.com
4. mailto:[91]npdrs at maui.net
5. mailto:[92]pantdino at aol.com
6. mailto:[93]boyd411 at gmail.com
7. mailto:[94]npdrs at maui.net
8. mailto:[95]bjbstewart at yahoo.com
9. mailto:[96]detomaso at poca.com
10. mailto:[97]boyd411 at gmail.com
11. mailto:[98]pantdino at aol.com
12. mailto:[99]npdrs at maui.net
13. mailto:[100]bjbstewart at yahoo.com
14. mailto:[101]detomaso at poca.com
15. mailto:[102]detomaso at poca.com
16. mailto:[103]npdrs at maui.net
17. mailto:[104]bjbstewart at yahoo.com
18. mailto:[105]detomaso at poca.com
19. mailto:[106]bjbstewart at yahoo.com
20. mailto:[107]detomaso at poca.com
21. mailto:[108]npdrs at maui.net
22.
[109]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-
23. mailto:[110]DeTomaso at poca.com
24. [111]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
25. mailto:[112]npdrs at maui.net
26.
[113]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m
27. mailto:[114]DeTomaso at poca.com
28. [115]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
29. mailto:[116]DeTomaso at poca.com
30. [117]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
31. mailto:[118]bjbstewart at yahoo.com
32. mailto:[119]detomaso at poca.com
33. mailto:[120]npdrs at maui.net
34.
[121]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-h
i
35. mailto:[122]DeTomaso at poca.com
36. [123]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
37. mailto:[124]npdrs at maui.net
38.
[125]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-h
i
39. mailto:[126]DeTomaso at poca.com
40. [127]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
41. mailto:[128]DeTomaso at poca.com
42. [129]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
43. mailto:[130]DeTomaso at poca.com
44. [131]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
45. mailto:[132]boyd411 at gmail.com
46. mailto:[133]pantdino at aol.com
47. mailto:[134]npdrs at maui.net
48. mailto:[135]bjbstewart at yahoo.com
49. mailto:[136]detomaso at poca.com
50.
[137]http://www.ebay.com/gds/Ford-351-Cleveland-Engines-Key-Facts-Infor
mation-/10000000001410755/g.html
51. mailto:[138]detomaso at poca.com
52. mailto:[139]npdrs at maui.net
53. mailto:[140]bjbstewart at yahoo.com
54. mailto:[141]detomaso at poca.com
55. mailto:[142]bjbstewart at yahoo.com
56. mailto:[143]detomaso at poca.com
57. mailto:[144]npdrs at maui.net
58.
[145]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-h
is
59. mailto:[146]DeTomaso at poca.com
60. [147]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
61. mailto:[148]npdrs at maui.net
62.
[149]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-h
ist-s
63. mailto:[150]DeTomaso at poca.com
64. [151]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
65. mailto:[152]DeTomaso at poca.com
66. [153]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
67. mailto:[154]bjbstewart at yahoo.com
68. mailto:[155]detomaso at poca.com
69. mailto:[156]npdrs at maui.net
70.
[157]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-h
is
71. mailto:[158]DeTomaso at poca.com
72. [159]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
73. mailto:[160]npdrs at maui.net
74.
[161]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-h
ist-strass
75. mailto:[162]DeTomaso at poca.com
76. [163]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
77. mailto:[164]DeTomaso at poca.com
78. [165]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
79. mailto:[166]DeTomaso at poca.com
80. [167]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
81. mailto:[168]DeTomaso at poca.com
82. [169]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
83. mailto:[170]spkorb at spkorb.org
84. [171]http://www.spkorb.org/
85. mailto:[172]DeTomaso at poca.com
86. [173]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
DeTomaso mailing list
[174]DeTomaso at poca.com
[175]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
References
1. mailto:andymay24 at gmail.com
2. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
3. mailto:spkorb at gmail.com
4. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
5. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
6. mailto:pantdino at aol.com
7. mailto:boyd411 at gmail.com
8. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
9. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
10. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
11. mailto:boyd411 at gmail.com
12. mailto:pantdino at aol.com
13. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
14. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
15. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
16. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
17. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
18. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
19. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
20. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
21. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
22. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
23. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-panter
24. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
25. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
26. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
27. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-g
28. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
29. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
30. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
31. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
32. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
33. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
34. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
35. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-grup
36. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
37. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
38. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
39. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-grup
40. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
41. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
42. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
43. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
44. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
45. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
46. mailto:boyd411 at gmail.com
47. mailto:pantdino at aol.com
48. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
49. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
50. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
51. http://www.ebay.com/gds/Ford-351-Cleveland-Engines-Key-Facts-Inf
52. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
53. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
54. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
55. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
56. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
57. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
58. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
59. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m
60. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
61. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
62. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
63. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m
64. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
65. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
66. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
67. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
68. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
69. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
70. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
71. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m
72. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
73. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
74. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
75. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m
76. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
77. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
78. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
79. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
80. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
81. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
82. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
83. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
84. mailto:spkorb at spkorb.org
85. http://www.spkorb.org/
86. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
87. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
88. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
89. mailto:spkorb at gmail.com
90. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
91. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
92. mailto:pantdino at aol.com
93. mailto:boyd411 at gmail.com
94. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
95. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
96. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
97. mailto:boyd411 at gmail.com
98. mailto:pantdino at aol.com
99. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
100. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
101. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
102. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
103. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
104. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
105. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
106. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
107. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
108. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
109. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-
110. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
111. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
112. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
113. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m
114. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
115. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
116. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
117. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
118. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
119. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
120. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
121. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-hi
122. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
123. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
124. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
125. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-hi
126. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
127. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
128. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
129. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
130. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
131. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
132. mailto:boyd411 at gmail.com
133. mailto:pantdino at aol.com
134. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
135. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
136. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
137. http://www.ebay.com/gds/Ford-351-Cleveland-Engines-Key-Facts-Information-/10000000001410755/g.html
138. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
139. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
140. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
141. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
142. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
143. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
144. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
145. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-his
146. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
147. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
148. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
149. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-hist-s
150. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
151. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
152. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
153. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
154. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
155. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
156. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
157. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-his
158. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
159. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
160. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
161. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-hist-strass
162. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
163. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
164. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
165. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
166. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
167. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
168. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
169. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
170. mailto:spkorb at spkorb.org
171. http://www.spkorb.org/
172. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
173. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
174. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
175. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
DeTomaso mailing list
DeTomaso at poca.com
http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
-------------- next part --------------
In going thru somewhat the same drill on our car decades ago, I found
that if one tightens up the wire-retaining nut on any electric gauge
sender without adding a second nut to back up during tightening, its
quite possible to pull the threaded shaft loose from the inside of the
sender and basically destroy it.
1)- screw the original nut down only finger tight.
2) add the loop connector and tighten the second (top) nut you just
added AGAINST the lower nut, not against the bakelite insulator, while
, holding both nuts with wrenches.
The idea is to not stretch the threaded rod out of the sender. Senders
are threaded 10-32 SAE and extra nuts are available at any hardware
store for pennies apiece. Good lick- J Deryke.
-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Stroj <npdrs at maui.net>
To: 'Charles McCall' <charlesmccall at gmail.com>; 'Andy May'
<andymay24 at gmail.com>
Cc: 'Pantera list serve' <detomaso at poca.com>
Sent: Fri, Jul 18, 2014 4:42 am
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] FW: Moment of (sad) truth
Hi,
Thanks for your suggestions, it makes sense; will install mechanical
gauge and check this before going any further!
My car got VDO gauges, so was assuming they would be correct, but, of
course, need also to check the sender.
All the best,
Robert
From: Charles McCall [[1]mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 1:02 AM
To: Andy May
Cc: Robert Stroj; Pantera list serve
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] FW: Moment of (sad) truth
I also have a mechanical gauge installed because I didn't like what my
stock pressure gauge was telling me. It was doing weird things that I
assumed couldn't be possible, such as wildly fluctuating pressure. In
fact my real pressure is rock solid as indicated by the mechanical
gauge.
Another data point that the stock gauge may get flaky on you and lead
you to incorrect assumptions
On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 12:21 PM, Andy May <[1][2]andymay24 at gmail.com>
wrote:
Robert,
Don't make the assumption that your oil gauge indication bears any
relationship to what oil pressure you actually have at the engine!
Speaking from personal experience, the problem may very well be the
oil
pressure sender. Mine was jumping around all over - especially when
hot
- which I could not understand with my reasonably freshly built
engine.
I replaced the electrical sender (a standard ford part) and also
fitted
an additional mechanical gauge via a T-connector just as a means of
"positive checking" as I had lost confidence in the electrical one.
Result - 55psi normal running and 40-45psi hot idle on the
mechanical
gauge and a much happier owner! The standard pantera gauge continues
to
present an approximation of pressure, but at least now its a pretty
stable approximation!
I suggest you hook up a mechanical gauge and check your oil pressure
with this before you tear into the motor.
Kind regards
Andy
On Jul 18, 2014 9:47 AM, "Robert Stroj" <[1][2][3]npdrs at maui.net>
wrote:
Hi Sean,
Yes, as you pointed out it is a real problem that I don't have the
specs.
As well, looking at the price, it seems to me that they might not
be
Solid Rollers; that price looks like it would fit to regular solid
flat tappet lifters?
I got all the original receipts with the car and tried to call
vendor of the cam to find out if he might have somewhere any spec,
but based on receipt it was not possible to find anything...it is
10
years past since they were purchased; same was the situation with
the head, so I do not know which SS valves are used, spring rates
or
which roller rockers are installed.
I guess, first I need to check if my bearings are OK as I really
have a bad feeling with oil pressure showing really low when
engine
is hot.
Is there any way to check that short of pulling the motor out and
opening the bottom; guess not?
Thanks, Robert
-----Original Message-----
From: Sean Korb [[4]mailto:[2][3]spkorb at gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2014 9:01 AM
To: [3][4][5]detomaso at poca.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] FW: Moment of (sad) truth
It's hard to tell with a custom grind Isky. A They make a lot of
pretty interesting flat tappet camshafts but I'm not familiar with
their roller line. A If you don't have a cam card you really
should
make your own and get the specification. A A degree wheel and
removing the front accessories and water pump is kind of a pain
but
it really needs to be done.
That said, you can find TDC without doing all that work. A Just
pull
a spark plug on #1 and find it. A Make sure it matches your
harmonic
balancer. A It does sound like timing since you are having trouble
starting it when it is hot,
My stock 1971 motor made 255HP at the wheels. A Hydraulic stock
grind on the camshaft and 10.5:1 compression with stock heads. A
The
CHI heads *could* give you more power but unless you know your
camshaft will take advantage of it, the stock heads are already
pretty darn good and you won't see that much with just a head
swap.
A If you are running something like 0.055 lift or better with
aggressive duration, you should really be getting more power and
it
would be carburetor and timing to check next.
Oh hey! A You're running solid rollers? A Maybe your tappet
clearance should be adjusted. A If they are running really loose
that would rob you of a lot of power. A It would make a lot of
noise
too.
sean
On Wed, Jul 16, 2014 at 2:20 PM, Robert Stroj
<[4][5][6]npdrs at maui.net>
wrote:
> A A Hi,
>
>
> A A First thanks to all for your suggestions and sorry for
delay
on coming
> A A back; was two weeks traveling without the internet
connection.
>
>
> A A My engine is not the one that was in the car; it is a A 4
bolt 351C,
> A A here are all the engine A spec as I got them from a
previous
owner:
>
>
> A A Engine
>
>
> A A CUI A A A A A A A A A : A A A A A 351
Cleveland
4V
>
>
> A A Heads A : A A A A A Australian (3) valve aluminum
polished heads
>
> A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A
A ($1,995)
>
> A A A A A A A A A A A A A A : A A A A A Polish
($175)
>
>
> A A Intake A : A A A A A Polished aluminum Hi-Rise ($525)
>
> A A A A A A A A A A A A A A : A A A A A Polish
($175)
>
>
> A A Carb A A A A A A A A : A A A A A 780 CFM
Holley
4-barrel carburetor
>
> A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A
A ($512.99 Inc Shipping)
>
>
> A A Cable A : A A A A A PI MotorSport Throttle Cable
($155)
>
>
> A A Valves : A A A A A Stainless Steel Exhaust/Intake
valves
($900)
>
>
> A A Cam A A A A A A A A : A A A A A ISKY Solid
Roller Camshaft with Lifters
> A A ($275)
>
> A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A
Custom
grind
>
>
> A A Rockers A A A A A : A A A A A Roller Rockers
($275)
>
>
> A A Chain A : A A A A A Duel Roller Chain ($57)
>
>
> A A Exhaust A A A A A : A A A A A GTS Coated Headers
and Mufflers ($850)
>
>
> A A Water Pump: A Aluminum High Flow ($208.65)
>
>
> A A Radiator A A A A A : A A A A A Aluminum Radiator
Assembly Pantera
>
> A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A
A Performance ($1,108.90)
>
>
> A A Starter : A A A A A High Performance Starter ($165)
>
>
> A A Oil Pan A A A A A A : A A A A A 10 Quart oil pan
with windage tray
> A A ($400)
>
>
> A A Ignition A A A A A A : A A A A A Mallory Unilite
Distributor, Mallory
> A A Coil, Mallory Spark
>
> A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A Plug
Wires ($280)
>
>
>
>
> A A What I am the most worried about is the thing that car dies
on idle
> A A after being driven hard and then it is really hard to
start;
once did
> A A not start at all.
>
> A A When hot like this it turns really hard, as if the battery
would be
> A A low, but when cold it turns really well; my worry is that
bearings
> A A could be really worn and once the oil gets thin it
increases
the
> A A friction inside the engine.
>
> A A The oil pressure gauge drops really low; when hot idling it
just jumps
> A A between 0 and 1/4 of the gauge.
>
>
> A A It all looks like I will need to do a complete rebuild and
will be
> A A looking to see which are good parts that I could
successfully
reuse;
> A A this is why Brent's motor configuration is really
interesting
as it
> A A uses same heads and intake manifold.
>
>
> A A I just got a lead to person that had a racing team using
Mustang in
> A A German Turing championship and is willing to help; hope to
meet him
> A A next week.
>
>
> A A All the best, Robert
>
>
> A A From: Pantdino [[7]mailto:[5][6]pantdino at aol.com]
> A A Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2014 5:28 PM
> A A To: [6][7][8]boyd411 at gmail.com
> A A Cc: [7][8][9]npdrs at maui.net; [8][9][10]bjbstewart at yahoo.com;
[9][10][11]detomaso at poca.com
> A A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] FW: Moment of (sad) truth
>
>
>
> A A "Torque really means a lot more but the way the engine runs
and how the
> A A car drives is a lot more important then any dyne numbers. "
>
>
>
>
> A A HP is actually calculated from torque, and the HP number
the
dyno guy
> A A gives you is so full of "correction factors" it has to be
taken with a
> A A grain of salt I think in terms of comparing it to what
someone else
> A A gets on different dyno in a different city on a different
day
on a
> A A chassis vs engine dyno etc
>
>
> A A -----Original Message-----
> A A From: Boyd Casey <[1][10][11][12]boyd411 at gmail.com>
> A A To: Pantdino <[2][11][12][13]pantdino at aol.com>
> A A Cc: npdrs <[3][12][13][14]npdrs at maui.net>; Brent Stewart
<[4][13][14][15]bjbstewart at yahoo.com>;
> A A detomaso <[5][14][15][16]detomaso at poca.com>
> A A Sent: Tue, Jul 1, 2014 5:05 pm
> A A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] FW: Moment of (sad) truth
>
> A A Robert,
>
> A A Do you know if your 71 engine was the original engine that
came with
> A A your Pantera? (a numbers matching engine). Around 90% of
the
Cleveland
> A A engines made were not "high performance" engines. This link
explains
> A A how to help determine what type of engine yours was
> A A originally. [6]Cleveland guide A even though your engine
has
good heads
> A A it may have low compression pistons. You will only know
what
you
> A A actually have when you get inside your engine. In the
meantime you can
> A A do a compression check to make sure all your 8 cylinders
have
close to
> A A the same compression. You should also start with a good
tune
up. make
> A A sure you have the right plugs, make sure your timing is set
correctly.
> A A Depending on your cam a 7550 CFM carb may be to big for
your
engine (
> A A with a stock 351 ci displacement A and depending on your
pistons
> A A compression ratio and your cam 750 cfm may be to big. Lots
of
people
> A A thing bigger is better. To big a carb will do much more
harm
then good
> A A when it comes to losing power. A You also want to be sure
your carb is
> A A jetted and set properly. Getting the most out of an engine
is
like
> A A navigating. You have to know where you are , before you can
figure out
> A A how to get where you want to go. So you have to know what
you
have
> A A before you can figure out how to get the most out of it! HP
numbers are
> A A just numbers. Torque really means a lot more but the way
the
engine
> A A runs and how the car drives is a lot more important then
any
dyne
> A A numbers. You want a car wit good throttle response, a car
that revs up
> A A quickly when you hit the gas. Find a local mechanic that
knows
> A A Cleveland engines and preferably Panteras as well. Figure
out
what you
> A A actually have and how to maximize it before you start
throwing money at
> A A it. There are lots of good books on how to build Cleveland
engines as
> A A well as some great web sites dedicated to Cleveland
engines.
A Check out
> A A Clevelands forever (google it) or 351C.net. there are also
numerous
> A A books available at Amazon.com. You can also find loads of
free info on
> A A various forums on he web for free!
>
> A A Good Luck!
>
> A A Boyd
>
>
> A A On Tue, Jul 1, 2014 at 3:23 PM, Pantdino via DeTomaso
> A A <[7][15][16][17]detomaso at poca.com> wrote:
>
> A A A It is a Holley vacuum secondary unit fitted by Steve
Wilkinson-- he
> A A A said jetted for a Pantera.
>
> A A A -----Original Message-----
> A A A From: Robert Stroj <[8][16][17][18]npdrs at maui.net>
> A A A To: 'Brent Stewart' <[9][17][18][19]bjbstewart at yahoo.com>;
detomaso
> A A A <[10][18][19][20]detomaso at poca.com>
>
> A A A Sent: Tue, Jul 1, 2014 11:58 am
> A A A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] FW: Moment of (sad) truth
>
> A A A Hi Brent,
> A A A Thanks a lot, this is really good info!
> A A A What carburetor are you using?
> A A A Cheers,
> A A A Robert
>
> A A A From: Brent Stewart
[[1][21]mailto:[11][19][20]bjbstewart at yahoo.com]
>
> A A A Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2014 5:32 AM
>
> A A A To: Robert Stroj; [2][12][20][21][22]detomaso at poca.com
>
> A A A Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] FW: Moment of (sad) truth
> A A A Hi Robert,
> A A A I have the same CHI heads and intake. A Here are my
build
specs
> A A incase
> A A A you want to utilize those in an engine update:
> A A A ENGINE SPECS:
> A A A Bennett Racing Dyno'd the engine and provided the spec
sheet. A The
> A A 351C
> A A A based 392 CID engine made 571 HP and 517 TQ @ 5800 RPM.
A Here are
> A A the
> A A A details of the build:
> A A A Parts list
> A A A . A A A A SCAT 3.85 Crankshaft, internally balanced
> A A A . A A A A SCAT 6.00 H Beam Rods
> A A A . A A A A Custom Ross Pistons
> A A A . A A A A Custom Bennett Racing Hydraulic Roller Cam
> A A A . A A A A Superformance Balancer
> A A A . A A A A Crane Link Bar Hydraulic Roller Lifters
> A A A . A A A A Comp Cams Pushrods
> A A A . A A A A Harland Sharp 4005 Roller Rockers
> A A A . A A A A CHI 228 3V aluminum Heads
> A A A . A A A A CHI high-rise intake
> A A A Build specs
> A A A . A A A A Bore: 4.030
> A A A . A A A A Crank: 3.850 9000 series
> A A A . A A A A Cam: 3018F-3039B 112
> A A A o A Intake Lobe: 242 @ .050 .366 LL
> A A A o A Exhaust Lobe: 250 @ .050 .363 LL
> A A A o A Lobe Separation: 112
> A A A . A A A A Pushrods: 7.850 Comp Cams HD
>
> A A A On Tuesday, July 1, 2014 8:06 AM, Robert Stroj
> A A <[1][3][13][21][22][23]npdrs at maui.net>
>
> A A A wrote:
> A A A So, finally, my '71 Pantera got through all the import
procedures
> A A and
> A A A is now
> A A A street legal in Europe/Germany!
> A A A Car is in very good shape, zero rust anywhere,
suspension
feels very
> A A A good to
> A A A drive (height adjustable koni set), brakes work well
(wilwood
> A A A conversion),
> A A A but there is something not right with the motor.
> A A A Engine is a older 351C rebuild using original
crankshaft
and
> A A pistons.
> A A A Some
> A A A years later it was fitted with CHI 3V heads and intake
system, SS
> A A A valves,
> A A A 780 Holley and GTS exhaust system.
> A A A When driving the cart was pulling well, but definitely
was not
> A A feeling
> A A A as
> A A A 400-500HP car; this is what I was sort of expecting
after
talking to
> A A A person
> A A A who rebuild the engine as well as previous owner...it
did
not really
> A A A feel as
> A A A 300HP car...
> A A A I had a chance to put it on the dyno at the friend's
garage and got
> A A the
> A A A following graph (please see the attached image); this
are
graphs for
> A A A adjusted power on the flywheel after recalculating
looses
between
> A A A engine and
> A A A wheels.
> A A A What was really interesting is that he had a chance to
test 2 other
> A A A panteras
> A A A recently; one was a client that had rebuilt engine
using
some
> A A "special
> A A A parts", bt I am not sure of the actual spec while the
other one was
> A A A black
> A A A GR4 replica that is currently listed for sale in
Germany
and was
> A A built
> A A A by
> A A A Braun Motorsport:
>
>
> A
A
[2][4][14][22][23][24]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-panter
a-gruppe-
> A A 4-m-his
>
> A A A t-strass
>
> A
A
enzul-neuaufbau-neuried-bei-m%C3%BCnche/159513949.html?lang=de&pag
eNumb
> A A A er=1&
>
> A
A
__lp=1&scopeId=C&sortOption.sortBy=creationTime&sortOption.sortOrd
er=DE
> A A A SCEND
>
> A
A
ING&makeModelVariant1.makeId=7400&makeModelVariant1.searchInFreete
xt=fa
> A A A lse&m
>
> A
A
akeModelVariant2.searchInFreetext=false&makeModelVariant3.searchIn
Freet
> A A A ext=f
> A A A alse&ambitCountry=DE&negativeFeatures=EXPORT
> A A A So, finally, my engine did not even reach 250HP,
another
rebuild
> A A A pantera
> A A A motor did just over 300HP while Braun pantera did very
nice 389HP;
> A A A there is
> A A A also Ford GT40 with racing motor in there; it did 410hp
but at much
> A A A higher
> A A A RPM.
> A A A The most impressive about the Braun car is how smooth
the
power
> A A curve
> A A A is.
> A A A So, now I am wondering where to go from here; could it
be
that it is
> A A as
> A A A simple as wrong cam choice?
> A A A If going to do a rebuild is there a good configuration
someone could
> A A A suggest
> A A A that would use CHI3V heads and intake, as I already got
those?
> A A A As well, I had something strange happen twice with the
gearbox; it
> A A got
> A A A out
> A A A of the 3rd gear by itself; would someone know if this
could be due
> A A to
> A A A any
> A A A wrong linkage adjustment?
> A A A Thanks, Robert
> A A A _______________________________________________
> A A A Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> A A A DeTomaso mailing list
>
> A A A [3][5][15][23][24][25]DeTomaso at poca.com
> A A A
[4][6][16][24][25][26]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> A A References
> A A A 1. [7][27]mailto:[17][25][26]npdrs at maui.net
> A A A 2.
> A
A
[8][18][26][27][28]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-g
ruppe-4-m
> A A -hist-s
> A A trass
> A A A 3. [9][29]mailto:[19][27][28]DeTomaso at poca.com
> A A A 4.
[10][20][28][29][30]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>
> A A _______________________________________________
> A A Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> A A DeTomaso mailing list
>
> A A [11][21][29][30][31]DeTomaso at poca.com
> A
A
[12][22][30][31][32]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> A A References
> A A A 1. [33]mailto:[23][31][32]bjbstewart at yahoo.com?
> A A A 2. [34]mailto:[24][32][33]detomaso at poca.com
> A A A 3. [35]mailto:[25][33][34]npdrs at maui.net
> A A A 4.
> A
A
[26][34][35][36]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-grup
pe-4-m-hi
> A A s
> A A A 5. [37]mailto:[27][35][36]DeTomaso at poca.com
> A A A 6.
[28][36][37][38]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> A A A 7. [39]mailto:[29][37][38]npdrs at maui.net?
> A A A 8.
> A
A
[30][38][39][40]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-grup
pe-4-m-hi
> A A st-strass
> A A A 9. [41]mailto:[31][39][40]DeTomaso at poca.com?
> A A A 10.
[32][40][41][42]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> A A A 11. [43]mailto:[33][41][42]DeTomaso at poca.com
> A A A 12.
[34][42][43][44]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> A A _______________________________________________
> A A Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> A A DeTomaso mailing list
> A A [35][43][44][45]DeTomaso at poca.com
> A A
[36][44][45][46]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>
> References
>
> A A 1. [47]mailto:[45][46]boyd411 at gmail.com
> A A 2. [48]mailto:[46][47]pantdino at aol.com
> A A 3. [49]mailto:[47][48]npdrs at maui.net
> A A 4. [50]mailto:[48][49]bjbstewart at yahoo.com
> A A 5. [51]mailto:[49][50]detomaso at poca.com
> A A 6.
>
[50][51][52]http://www.ebay.com/gds/Ford-351-Cleveland-Engines-Key-Facts-In
f
ormation-/10000000001410755/g.html
> A A 7. [53]mailto:[51][52]detomaso at poca.com
> A A 8. [54]mailto:[52][53]npdrs at maui.net
> A A 9. [55]mailto:[53][54]bjbstewart at yahoo.com
> A 10. [56]mailto:[54][55]detomaso at poca.com
> A 11. [57]mailto:[55][56]bjbstewart at yahoo.com
> A 12. [58]mailto:[56][57]detomaso at poca.com
> A 13. [59]mailto:[57][58]npdrs at maui.net
> A 14.
[58][59][60]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-
m
-his
> A 15. [61]mailto:[59][60]DeTomaso at poca.com
> A 16.
[60][61][62]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> A 17. [63]mailto:[61][62]npdrs at maui.net
> A 18.
>
[62][63][64]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-
m
-hist-s
> A 19. [65]mailto:[63][64]DeTomaso at poca.com
> A 20.
[64][65][66]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> A 21. [67]mailto:[65][66]DeTomaso at poca.com
> A 22.
[66][67][68]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> A 23. [69]mailto:[67][68]bjbstewart at yahoo.com
> A 24. [70]mailto:[68][69]detomaso at poca.com
> A 25. [71]mailto:[69][70]npdrs at maui.net
> A 26.
[70][71][72]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-
m
-his
> A 27. [73]mailto:[71][72]DeTomaso at poca.com
> A 28.
[72][73][74]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> A 29. [75]mailto:[73][74]npdrs at maui.net
> A 30.
>
[74][75][76]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-
m
-hist-strass
> A 31. [77]mailto:[75][76]DeTomaso at poca.com
> A 32.
[76][77][78]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> A 33. [79]mailto:[77][78]DeTomaso at poca.com
> A 34.
[78][79][80]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> A 35. [81]mailto:[79][80]DeTomaso at poca.com
> A 36.
[80][81][82]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>
> DeTomaso mailing list
> [81][82][83]DeTomaso at poca.com
> [82][83][84]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>
>
--
Sean Korb [83][84][85]spkorb at spkorb.org [84][85][86]http://www.spkorb.or
g
'65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71
Pantera
#1382 "The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
"Computers are useless. A They can only give you answers." -P.
Picasso
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
DeTomaso mailing list
[85][86][87]DeTomaso at poca.com
[86][87][88]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
References
1. [89]mailto:[88]npdrs at maui.net
2. [90]mailto:[89]spkorb at gmail.com
3. [91]mailto:[90]detomaso at poca.com
4. [92]mailto:[91]npdrs at maui.net
5. [93]mailto:[92]pantdino at aol.com
6. [94]mailto:[93]boyd411 at gmail.com
7. [95]mailto:[94]npdrs at maui.net
8. [96]mailto:[95]bjbstewart at yahoo.com
9. [97]mailto:[96]detomaso at poca.com
10. [98]mailto:[97]boyd411 at gmail.com
11. [99]mailto:[98]pantdino at aol.com
12. [100]mailto:[99]npdrs at maui.net
13. [101]mailto:[100]bjbstewart at yahoo.com
14. [102]mailto:[101]detomaso at poca.com
15. [103]mailto:[102]detomaso at poca.com
16. [104]mailto:[103]npdrs at maui.net
17. [105]mailto:[104]bjbstewart at yahoo.com
18. [106]mailto:[105]detomaso at poca.com
19. [107]mailto:[106]bjbstewart at yahoo.com
20. [108]mailto:[107]detomaso at poca.com
21. [109]mailto:[108]npdrs at maui.net
22.
[109][110]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-
23. [111]mailto:[110]DeTomaso at poca.com
24. [111][112]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
25. [113]mailto:[112]npdrs at maui.net
26.
[113][114]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m
27. [115]mailto:[114]DeTomaso at poca.com
28. [115][116]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
29. [117]mailto:[116]DeTomaso at poca.com
30. [117][118]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
31. [119]mailto:[118]bjbstewart at yahoo.com
32. [120]mailto:[119]detomaso at poca.com
33. [121]mailto:[120]npdrs at maui.net
34.
[121][122]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-h
i
35. [123]mailto:[122]DeTomaso at poca.com
36. [123][124]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
37. [125]mailto:[124]npdrs at maui.net
38.
[125][126]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-h
i
39. [127]mailto:[126]DeTomaso at poca.com
40. [127][128]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
41. [129]mailto:[128]DeTomaso at poca.com
42. [129][130]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
43. [131]mailto:[130]DeTomaso at poca.com
44. [131][132]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
45. [133]mailto:[132]boyd411 at gmail.com
46. [134]mailto:[133]pantdino at aol.com
47. [135]mailto:[134]npdrs at maui.net
48. [136]mailto:[135]bjbstewart at yahoo.com
49. [137]mailto:[136]detomaso at poca.com
50.
[137][138]http://www.ebay.com/gds/Ford-351-Cleveland-Engines-Key-Facts-Infor
mation-/10000000001410755/g.html
51. [139]mailto:[138]detomaso at poca.com
52. [140]mailto:[139]npdrs at maui.net
53. [141]mailto:[140]bjbstewart at yahoo.com
54. [142]mailto:[141]detomaso at poca.com
55. [143]mailto:[142]bjbstewart at yahoo.com
56. [144]mailto:[143]detomaso at poca.com
57. [145]mailto:[144]npdrs at maui.net
58.
[145][146]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-h
is
59. [147]mailto:[146]DeTomaso at poca.com
60. [147][148]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
61. [149]mailto:[148]npdrs at maui.net
62.
[149][150]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-h
ist-s
63. [151]mailto:[150]DeTomaso at poca.com
64. [151][152]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
65. [153]mailto:[152]DeTomaso at poca.com
66. [153][154]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
67. [155]mailto:[154]bjbstewart at yahoo.com
68. [156]mailto:[155]detomaso at poca.com
69. [157]mailto:[156]npdrs at maui.net
70.
[157][158]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-h
is
71. [159]mailto:[158]DeTomaso at poca.com
72. [159][160]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
73. [161]mailto:[160]npdrs at maui.net
74.
[161][162]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-h
ist-strass
75. [163]mailto:[162]DeTomaso at poca.com
76. [163][164]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
77. [165]mailto:[164]DeTomaso at poca.com
78. [165][166]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
79. [167]mailto:[166]DeTomaso at poca.com
80. [167][168]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
81. [169]mailto:[168]DeTomaso at poca.com
82. [169][170]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
83. [171]mailto:[170]spkorb at spkorb.org
84. [171][172]http://www.spkorb.org/
85. [173]mailto:[172]DeTomaso at poca.com
86. [173][174]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
DeTomaso mailing list
[174][175]DeTomaso at poca.com
[175][176]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
References
1. [177]mailto:andymay24 at gmail.com
2. [178]mailto:npdrs at maui.net
3. [179]mailto:spkorb at gmail.com
4. [180]mailto:detomaso at poca.com
5. [181]mailto:npdrs at maui.net
6. [182]mailto:pantdino at aol.com
7. [183]mailto:boyd411 at gmail.com
8. [184]mailto:npdrs at maui.net
9. [185]mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
10. [186]mailto:detomaso at poca.com
11. [187]mailto:boyd411 at gmail.com
12. [188]mailto:pantdino at aol.com
13. [189]mailto:npdrs at maui.net
14. [190]mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
15. [191]mailto:detomaso at poca.com
16. [192]mailto:detomaso at poca.com
17. [193]mailto:npdrs at maui.net
18. [194]mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
19. [195]mailto:detomaso at poca.com
20. [196]mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
21. [197]mailto:detomaso at poca.com
22. [198]mailto:npdrs at maui.net
23. [199]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-panter
24. [200]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
25. [201]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
26. [202]mailto:npdrs at maui.net
27. [203]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-g
28. [204]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
29. [205]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
30. [206]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
31. [207]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
32. [208]mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
33. [209]mailto:detomaso at poca.com
34. [210]mailto:npdrs at maui.net
35. [211]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-grup
36. [212]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
37. [213]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
38. [214]mailto:npdrs at maui.net
39. [215]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-grup
40. [216]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
41. [217]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
42. [218]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
43. [219]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
44. [220]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
45. [221]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
46. [222]mailto:boyd411 at gmail.com
47. [223]mailto:pantdino at aol.com
48. [224]mailto:npdrs at maui.net
49. [225]mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
50. [226]mailto:detomaso at poca.com
51. [227]http://www.ebay.com/gds/Ford-351-Cleveland-Engines-Key-Facts-Inf
52. [228]mailto:detomaso at poca.com
53. [229]mailto:npdrs at maui.net
54. [230]mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
55. [231]mailto:detomaso at poca.com
56. [232]mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
57. [233]mailto:detomaso at poca.com
58. [234]mailto:npdrs at maui.net
59. [235]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m
60. [236]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
61. [237]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
62. [238]mailto:npdrs at maui.net
63. [239]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m
64. [240]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
65. [241]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
66. [242]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
67. [243]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
68. [244]mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
69. [245]mailto:detomaso at poca.com
70. [246]mailto:npdrs at maui.net
71. [247]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m
72. [248]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
73. [249]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
74. [250]mailto:npdrs at maui.net
75. [251]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m
76. [252]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
77. [253]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
78. [254]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
79. [255]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
80. [256]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
81. [257]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
82. [258]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
83. [259]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
84. [260]mailto:spkorb at spkorb.org
85. [261]http://www.spkorb.org/
86. [262]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
87. [263]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
88. [264]mailto:npdrs at maui.net
89. [265]mailto:spkorb at gmail.com
90. [266]mailto:detomaso at poca.com
91. [267]mailto:npdrs at maui.net
92. [268]mailto:pantdino at aol.com
93. [269]mailto:boyd411 at gmail.com
94. [270]mailto:npdrs at maui.net
95. [271]mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
96. [272]mailto:detomaso at poca.com
97. [273]mailto:boyd411 at gmail.com
98. [274]mailto:pantdino at aol.com
99. [275]mailto:npdrs at maui.net
100. [276]mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
101. [277]mailto:detomaso at poca.com
102. [278]mailto:detomaso at poca.com
103. [279]mailto:npdrs at maui.net
104. [280]mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
105. [281]mailto:detomaso at poca.com
106. [282]mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
107. [283]mailto:detomaso at poca.com
108. [284]mailto:npdrs at maui.net
109. [285]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-
110. [286]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
111. [287]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
112. [288]mailto:npdrs at maui.net
113. [289]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m
114. [290]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
115. [291]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
116. [292]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
117. [293]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
118. [294]mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
119. [295]mailto:detomaso at poca.com
120. [296]mailto:npdrs at maui.net
121. [297]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-hi
122. [298]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
123. [299]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
124. [300]mailto:npdrs at maui.net
125. [301]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-hi
126. [302]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
127. [303]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
128. [304]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
129. [305]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
130. [306]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
131. [307]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
132. [308]mailto:boyd411 at gmail.com
133. [309]mailto:pantdino at aol.com
134. [310]mailto:npdrs at maui.net
135. [311]mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
136. [312]mailto:detomaso at poca.com
137. [313]http://www.ebay.com/gds/Ford-351-Cleveland-Engines-Key-Facts-Informat
ion-/10000000001410755/g.html
138. [314]mailto:detomaso at poca.com
139. [315]mailto:npdrs at maui.net
140. [316]mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
141. [317]mailto:detomaso at poca.com
142. [318]mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
143. [319]mailto:detomaso at poca.com
144. [320]mailto:npdrs at maui.net
145. [321]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-his
146. [322]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
147. [323]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
148. [324]mailto:npdrs at maui.net
149. [325]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-hist
-s
150. [326]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
151. [327]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
152. [328]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
153. [329]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
154. [330]mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
155. [331]mailto:detomaso at poca.com
156. [332]mailto:npdrs at maui.net
157. [333]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-his
158. [334]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
159. [335]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
160. [336]mailto:npdrs at maui.net
161. [337]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-hist
-strass
162. [338]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
163. [339]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
164. [340]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
165. [341]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
166. [342]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
167. [343]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
168. [344]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
169. [345]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
170. [346]mailto:spkorb at spkorb.org
171. [347]http://www.spkorb.org/
172. [348]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
173. [349]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
174. [350]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
175. [351]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
DeTomaso mailing list
[352]DeTomaso at poca.com
[353]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
References
1. mailto:charlesmccall at gmail.com?
2. mailto:andymay24 at gmail.com
3. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
4. mailto:[2][3]spkorb at gmail.com?
5. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
6. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
7. mailto:[5][6]pantdino at aol.com?
8. mailto:boyd411 at gmail.com
9. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
10. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
11. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
12. mailto:boyd411 at gmail.com
13. mailto:pantdino at aol.com
14. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
15. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
16. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
17. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
18. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
19. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
20. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
21. mailto:[11][19][20]bjbstewart at yahoo.com?
22. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
23. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
24. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-panter
25. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
26. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
27. mailto:[17][25][26]npdrs at maui.net?
28. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-g
29. mailto:[19][27][28]DeTomaso at poca.com?
30. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
31. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
32. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
33. mailto:[23][31][32]bjbstewart at yahoo.com?
34. mailto:[24][32][33]detomaso at poca.com?
35. mailto:[25][33][34]npdrs at maui.net?
36. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-grup
37. mailto:[27][35][36]DeTomaso at poca.com?
38. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
39. mailto:[29][37][38]npdrs at maui.net?
40. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-grup
41. mailto:[31][39][40]DeTomaso at poca.com?
42. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
43. mailto:[33][41][42]DeTomaso at poca.com?
44. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
45. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
46. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
47. mailto:[45][46]boyd411 at gmail.com?
48. mailto:[46][47]pantdino at aol.com?
49. mailto:[47][48]npdrs at maui.net?
50. mailto:[48][49]bjbstewart at yahoo.com?
51. mailto:[49][50]detomaso at poca.com?
52. http://www.ebay.com/gds/Ford-351-Cleveland-Engines-Key-Facts-In
53. mailto:[51][52]detomaso at poca.com?
54. mailto:[52][53]npdrs at maui.net?
55. mailto:[53][54]bjbstewart at yahoo.com?
56. mailto:[54][55]detomaso at poca.com?
57. mailto:[55][56]bjbstewart at yahoo.com?
58. mailto:[56][57]detomaso at poca.com?
59. mailto:[57][58]npdrs at maui.net?
60. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-
61. mailto:[59][60]DeTomaso at poca.com?
62. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
63. mailto:[61][62]npdrs at maui.net?
64. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-
65. mailto:[63][64]DeTomaso at poca.com?
66. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
67. mailto:[65][66]DeTomaso at poca.com?
68. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
69. mailto:[67][68]bjbstewart at yahoo.com?
70. mailto:[68][69]detomaso at poca.com?
71. mailto:[69][70]npdrs at maui.net?
72. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-
73. mailto:[71][72]DeTomaso at poca.com?
74. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
75. mailto:[73][74]npdrs at maui.net?
76. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-
77. mailto:[75][76]DeTomaso at poca.com?
78. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
79. mailto:[77][78]DeTomaso at poca.com?
80. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
81. mailto:[79][80]DeTomaso at poca.com?
82. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
83. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
84. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
85. mailto:spkorb at spkorb.org
86. http://www.spkorb.org/
87. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
88. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
89. mailto:[88]npdrs at maui.net?
90. mailto:[89]spkorb at gmail.com?
91. mailto:[90]detomaso at poca.com?
92. mailto:[91]npdrs at maui.net?
93. mailto:[92]pantdino at aol.com?
94. mailto:[93]boyd411 at gmail.com?
95. mailto:[94]npdrs at maui.net?
96. mailto:[95]bjbstewart at yahoo.com?
97. mailto:[96]detomaso at poca.com?
98. mailto:[97]boyd411 at gmail.com?
99. mailto:[98]pantdino at aol.com?
100. mailto:[99]npdrs at maui.net?
101. mailto:[100]bjbstewart at yahoo.com?
102. mailto:[101]detomaso at poca.com?
103. mailto:[102]detomaso at poca.com?
104. mailto:[103]npdrs at maui.net?
105. mailto:[104]bjbstewart at yahoo.com?
106. mailto:[105]detomaso at poca.com?
107. mailto:[106]bjbstewart at yahoo.com?
108. mailto:[107]detomaso at poca.com?
109. mailto:[108]npdrs at maui.net?
110. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-
111. mailto:[110]DeTomaso at poca.com?
112. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
113. mailto:[112]npdrs at maui.net?
114. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m
115. mailto:[114]DeTomaso at poca.com?
116. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
117. mailto:[116]DeTomaso at poca.com?
118. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
119. mailto:[118]bjbstewart at yahoo.com?
120. mailto:[119]detomaso at poca.com?
121. mailto:[120]npdrs at maui.net?
122. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-h
123. mailto:[122]DeTomaso at poca.com?
124. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
125. mailto:[124]npdrs at maui.net?
126. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-h
127. mailto:[126]DeTomaso at poca.com?
128. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
129. mailto:[128]DeTomaso at poca.com?
130. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
131. mailto:[130]DeTomaso at poca.com?
132. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
133. mailto:[132]boyd411 at gmail.com?
134. mailto:[133]pantdino at aol.com?
135. mailto:[134]npdrs at maui.net?
136. mailto:[135]bjbstewart at yahoo.com?
137. mailto:[136]detomaso at poca.com?
138. http://www.ebay.com/gds/Ford-351-Cleveland-Engines-Key-Facts-Infor
139. mailto:[138]detomaso at poca.com?
140. mailto:[139]npdrs at maui.net?
141. mailto:[140]bjbstewart at yahoo.com?
142. mailto:[141]detomaso at poca.com?
143. mailto:[142]bjbstewart at yahoo.com?
144. mailto:[143]detomaso at poca.com?
145. mailto:[144]npdrs at maui.net?
146. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-h
147. mailto:[146]DeTomaso at poca.com?
148. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
149. mailto:[148]npdrs at maui.net?
150. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-h
151. mailto:[150]DeTomaso at poca.com?
152. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
153. mailto:[152]DeTomaso at poca.com?
154. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
155. mailto:[154]bjbstewart at yahoo.com?
156. mailto:[155]detomaso at poca.com?
157. mailto:[156]npdrs at maui.net?
158. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-h
159. mailto:[158]DeTomaso at poca.com?
160. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
161. mailto:[160]npdrs at maui.net?
162. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-h
163. mailto:[162]DeTomaso at poca.com?
164. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
165. mailto:[164]DeTomaso at poca.com?
166. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
167. mailto:[166]DeTomaso at poca.com?
168. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
169. mailto:[168]DeTomaso at poca.com?
170. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
171. mailto:[170]spkorb at spkorb.org?
172. http://www.spkorb.org/
173. mailto:[172]DeTomaso at poca.com?
174. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
175. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
176. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
177. mailto:andymay24 at gmail.com?
178. mailto:npdrs at maui.net?
179. mailto:spkorb at gmail.com?
180. mailto:detomaso at poca.com?
181. mailto:npdrs at maui.net?
182. mailto:pantdino at aol.com?
183. mailto:boyd411 at gmail.com?
184. mailto:npdrs at maui.net?
185. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com?
186. mailto:detomaso at poca.com?
187. mailto:boyd411 at gmail.com?
188. mailto:pantdino at aol.com?
189. mailto:npdrs at maui.net?
190. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com?
191. mailto:detomaso at poca.com?
192. mailto:detomaso at poca.com?
193. mailto:npdrs at maui.net?
194. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com?
195. mailto:detomaso at poca.com?
196. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com?
197. mailto:detomaso at poca.com?
198. mailto:npdrs at maui.net?
199. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-panter
200. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com?
201. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
202. mailto:npdrs at maui.net?
203. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-g
204. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com?
205. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
206. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com?
207. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
208. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com?
209. mailto:detomaso at poca.com?
210. mailto:npdrs at maui.net?
211. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-grup
212. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com?
213. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
214. mailto:npdrs at maui.net?
215. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-grup
216. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com?
217. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
218. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com?
219. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
220. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com?
221. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
222. mailto:boyd411 at gmail.com?
223. mailto:pantdino at aol.com?
224. mailto:npdrs at maui.net?
225. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com?
226. mailto:detomaso at poca.com?
227. http://www.ebay.com/gds/Ford-351-Cleveland-Engines-Key-Facts-Inf
228. mailto:detomaso at poca.com?
229. mailto:npdrs at maui.net?
230. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com?
231. mailto:detomaso at poca.com?
232. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com?
233. mailto:detomaso at poca.com?
234. mailto:npdrs at maui.net?
235. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m
236. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com?
237. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
238. mailto:npdrs at maui.net?
239. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m
240. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com?
241. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
242. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com?
243. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
244. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com?
245. mailto:detomaso at poca.com?
246. mailto:npdrs at maui.net?
247. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m
248. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com?
249. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
250. mailto:npdrs at maui.net?
251. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m
252. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com?
253. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
254. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com?
255. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
256. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com?
257. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
258. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com?
259. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
260. mailto:spkorb at spkorb.org?
261. http://www.spkorb.org/
262. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com?
263. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
264. mailto:npdrs at maui.net?
265. mailto:spkorb at gmail.com?
266. mailto:detomaso at poca.com?
267. mailto:npdrs at maui.net?
268. mailto:pantdino at aol.com?
269. mailto:boyd411 at gmail.com?
270. mailto:npdrs at maui.net?
271. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com?
272. mailto:detomaso at poca.com?
273. mailto:boyd411 at gmail.com?
274. mailto:pantdino at aol.com?
275. mailto:npdrs at maui.net?
276. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com?
277. mailto:detomaso at poca.com?
278. mailto:detomaso at poca.com?
279. mailto:npdrs at maui.net?
280. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com?
281. mailto:detomaso at poca.com?
282. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com?
283. mailto:detomaso at poca.com?
284. mailto:npdrs at maui.net?
285. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-
286. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com?
287. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
288. mailto:npdrs at maui.net?
289. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m
290. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com?
291. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
292. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com?
293. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
294. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com?
295. mailto:detomaso at poca.com?
296. mailto:npdrs at maui.net?
297. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-hi
298. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com?
299. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
300. mailto:npdrs at maui.net?
301. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-hi
302. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com?
303. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
304. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com?
305. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
306. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com?
307. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
308. mailto:boyd411 at gmail.com?
309. mailto:pantdino at aol.com?
310. mailto:npdrs at maui.net?
311. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com?
312. mailto:detomaso at poca.com?
313. http://www.ebay.com/gds/Ford-351-Cleveland-Engines-Key-Facts-Information-/10000000001410755/g.html
314. mailto:detomaso at poca.com?
315. mailto:npdrs at maui.net?
316. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com?
317. mailto:detomaso at poca.com?
318. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com?
319. mailto:detomaso at poca.com?
320. mailto:npdrs at maui.net?
321. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-his
322. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com?
323. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
324. mailto:npdrs at maui.net?
325. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-hist-s
326. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com?
327. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
328. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com?
329. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
330. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com?
331. mailto:detomaso at poca.com?
332. mailto:npdrs at maui.net?
333. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-his
334. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com?
335. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
336. mailto:npdrs at maui.net?
337. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-hist-strass
338. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com?
339. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
340. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com?
341. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
342. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com?
343. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
344. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com?
345. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
346. mailto:spkorb at spkorb.org?
347. http://www.spkorb.org/
348. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com?
349. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
350. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com?
351. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
352. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
353. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
More information about the DeTomaso
mailing list