[DeTomaso] FW: Moment of (sad) truth
Robert Stroj
npdrs at maui.net
Fri Jul 18 04:46:48 EDT 2014
Hi Sean,
Yes, as you pointed out it is a real problem that I don't have the specs.
As well, looking at the price, it seems to me that they might not be Solid Rollers; that price looks like it would fit to regular solid flat tappet lifters?
I got all the original receipts with the car and tried to call vendor of the cam to find out if he might have somewhere any spec, but based on receipt it was not possible to find anything...it is 10 years past since they were purchased; same was the situation with the head, so I do not know which SS valves are used, spring rates or which roller rockers are installed.
I guess, first I need to check if my bearings are OK as I really have a bad feeling with oil pressure showing really low when engine is hot.
Is there any way to check that short of pulling the motor out and opening the bottom; guess not?
Thanks, Robert
-----Original Message-----
From: Sean Korb [mailto:spkorb at gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2014 9:01 AM
To: detomaso at poca.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] FW: Moment of (sad) truth
It's hard to tell with a custom grind Isky. They make a lot of pretty interesting flat tappet camshafts but I'm not familiar with their roller line. If you don't have a cam card you really should make your own and get the specification. A degree wheel and removing the front accessories and water pump is kind of a pain but it really needs to be done.
That said, you can find TDC without doing all that work. Just pull a spark plug on #1 and find it. Make sure it matches your harmonic balancer. It does sound like timing since you are having trouble starting it when it is hot,
My stock 1971 motor made 255HP at the wheels. Hydraulic stock grind on the camshaft and 10.5:1 compression with stock heads. The CHI heads *could* give you more power but unless you know your camshaft will take advantage of it, the stock heads are already pretty darn good and you won't see that much with just a head swap. If you are running something like 0.055 lift or better with aggressive duration, you should really be getting more power and it would be carburetor and timing to check next.
Oh hey! You're running solid rollers? Maybe your tappet clearance should be adjusted. If they are running really loose that would rob you of a lot of power. It would make a lot of noise too.
sean
On Wed, Jul 16, 2014 at 2:20 PM, Robert Stroj <npdrs at maui.net> wrote:
> Hi,
>
>
> First thanks to all for your suggestions and sorry for delay on coming
> back; was two weeks traveling without the internet connection.
>
>
> My engine is not the one that was in the car; it is a 4 bolt 351C,
> here are all the engine spec as I got them from a previous owner:
>
>
> Engine
>
>
> CUI : 351 Cleveland 4V
>
>
> Heads : Australian (3) valve aluminum polished heads
>
> ($1,995)
>
> : Polish ($175)
>
>
> Intake : Polished aluminum Hi-Rise ($525)
>
> : Polish ($175)
>
>
> Carb : 780 CFM Holley 4-barrel carburetor
>
> ($512.99 Inc Shipping)
>
>
> Cable : PI MotorSport Throttle Cable ($155)
>
>
> Valves : Stainless Steel Exhaust/Intake valves ($900)
>
>
> Cam : ISKY Solid Roller Camshaft with Lifters
> ($275)
>
> Custom grind
>
>
> Rockers : Roller Rockers ($275)
>
>
> Chain : Duel Roller Chain ($57)
>
>
> Exhaust : GTS Coated Headers and Mufflers ($850)
>
>
> Water Pump: Aluminum High Flow ($208.65)
>
>
> Radiator : Aluminum Radiator Assembly Pantera
>
> Performance ($1,108.90)
>
>
> Starter : High Performance Starter ($165)
>
>
> Oil Pan : 10 Quart oil pan with windage tray
> ($400)
>
>
> Ignition : Mallory Unilite Distributor, Mallory
> Coil, Mallory Spark
>
> Plug Wires ($280)
>
>
>
>
> What I am the most worried about is the thing that car dies on idle
> after being driven hard and then it is really hard to start; once did
> not start at all.
>
> When hot like this it turns really hard, as if the battery would be
> low, but when cold it turns really well; my worry is that bearings
> could be really worn and once the oil gets thin it increases the
> friction inside the engine.
>
> The oil pressure gauge drops really low; when hot idling it just jumps
> between 0 and 1/4 of the gauge.
>
>
> It all looks like I will need to do a complete rebuild and will be
> looking to see which are good parts that I could successfully reuse;
> this is why Brent's motor configuration is really interesting as it
> uses same heads and intake manifold.
>
>
> I just got a lead to person that had a racing team using Mustang in
> German Turing championship and is willing to help; hope to meet him
> next week.
>
>
> All the best, Robert
>
>
> From: Pantdino [mailto:pantdino at aol.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2014 5:28 PM
> To: boyd411 at gmail.com
> Cc: npdrs at maui.net; bjbstewart at yahoo.com; detomaso at poca.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] FW: Moment of (sad) truth
>
>
>
> "Torque really means a lot more but the way the engine runs and how the
> car drives is a lot more important then any dyne numbers. "
>
>
>
>
> HP is actually calculated from torque, and the HP number the dyno guy
> gives you is so full of "correction factors" it has to be taken with a
> grain of salt I think in terms of comparing it to what someone else
> gets on different dyno in a different city on a different day on a
> chassis vs engine dyno etc
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Boyd Casey <[1]boyd411 at gmail.com>
> To: Pantdino <[2]pantdino at aol.com>
> Cc: npdrs <[3]npdrs at maui.net>; Brent Stewart <[4]bjbstewart at yahoo.com>;
> detomaso <[5]detomaso at poca.com>
> Sent: Tue, Jul 1, 2014 5:05 pm
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] FW: Moment of (sad) truth
>
> Robert,
>
> Do you know if your 71 engine was the original engine that came with
> your Pantera? (a numbers matching engine). Around 90% of the Cleveland
> engines made were not "high performance" engines. This link explains
> how to help determine what type of engine yours was
> originally. [6]Cleveland guide even though your engine has good heads
> it may have low compression pistons. You will only know what you
> actually have when you get inside your engine. In the meantime you can
> do a compression check to make sure all your 8 cylinders have close to
> the same compression. You should also start with a good tune up. make
> sure you have the right plugs, make sure your timing is set correctly.
> Depending on your cam a 7550 CFM carb may be to big for your engine (
> with a stock 351 ci displacement and depending on your pistons
> compression ratio and your cam 750 cfm may be to big. Lots of people
> thing bigger is better. To big a carb will do much more harm then good
> when it comes to losing power. You also want to be sure your carb is
> jetted and set properly. Getting the most out of an engine is like
> navigating. You have to know where you are , before you can figure out
> how to get where you want to go. So you have to know what you have
> before you can figure out how to get the most out of it! HP numbers are
> just numbers. Torque really means a lot more but the way the engine
> runs and how the car drives is a lot more important then any dyne
> numbers. You want a car wit good throttle response, a car that revs up
> quickly when you hit the gas. Find a local mechanic that knows
> Cleveland engines and preferably Panteras as well. Figure out what you
> actually have and how to maximize it before you start throwing money at
> it. There are lots of good books on how to build Cleveland engines as
> well as some great web sites dedicated to Cleveland engines. Check out
> Clevelands forever (google it) or 351C.net. there are also numerous
> books available at Amazon.com. You can also find loads of free info on
> various forums on he web for free!
>
> Good Luck!
>
> Boyd
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 1, 2014 at 3:23 PM, Pantdino via DeTomaso
> <[7]detomaso at poca.com> wrote:
>
> It is a Holley vacuum secondary unit fitted by Steve Wilkinson-- he
> said jetted for a Pantera.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Robert Stroj <[8]npdrs at maui.net>
> To: 'Brent Stewart' <[9]bjbstewart at yahoo.com>; detomaso
> <[10]detomaso at poca.com>
>
> Sent: Tue, Jul 1, 2014 11:58 am
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] FW: Moment of (sad) truth
>
> Hi Brent,
> Thanks a lot, this is really good info!
> What carburetor are you using?
> Cheers,
> Robert
>
> From: Brent Stewart [[1]mailto:[11]bjbstewart at yahoo.com]
>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2014 5:32 AM
>
> To: Robert Stroj; [2][12]detomaso at poca.com
>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] FW: Moment of (sad) truth
> Hi Robert,
> I have the same CHI heads and intake. Here are my build specs
> incase
> you want to utilize those in an engine update:
> ENGINE SPECS:
> Bennett Racing Dyno'd the engine and provided the spec sheet. The
> 351C
> based 392 CID engine made 571 HP and 517 TQ @ 5800 RPM. Here are
> the
> details of the build:
> Parts list
> . SCAT 3.85 Crankshaft, internally balanced
> . SCAT 6.00 H Beam Rods
> . Custom Ross Pistons
> . Custom Bennett Racing Hydraulic Roller Cam
> . Superformance Balancer
> . Crane Link Bar Hydraulic Roller Lifters
> . Comp Cams Pushrods
> . Harland Sharp 4005 Roller Rockers
> . CHI 228 3V aluminum Heads
> . CHI high-rise intake
> Build specs
> . Bore: 4.030
> . Crank: 3.850 9000 series
> . Cam: 3018F-3039B 112
> o Intake Lobe: 242 @ .050 .366 LL
> o Exhaust Lobe: 250 @ .050 .363 LL
> o Lobe Separation: 112
> . Pushrods: 7.850 Comp Cams HD
>
> On Tuesday, July 1, 2014 8:06 AM, Robert Stroj
> <[1][3][13]npdrs at maui.net>
>
> wrote:
> So, finally, my '71 Pantera got through all the import procedures
> and
> is now
> street legal in Europe/Germany!
> Car is in very good shape, zero rust anywhere, suspension feels very
> good to
> drive (height adjustable koni set), brakes work well (wilwood
> conversion),
> but there is something not right with the motor.
> Engine is a older 351C rebuild using original crankshaft and
> pistons.
> Some
> years later it was fitted with CHI 3V heads and intake system, SS
> valves,
> 780 Holley and GTS exhaust system.
> When driving the cart was pulling well, but definitely was not
> feeling
> as
> 400-500HP car; this is what I was sort of expecting after talking to
> person
> who rebuild the engine as well as previous owner...it did not really
> feel as
> 300HP car...
> I had a chance to put it on the dyno at the friend's garage and got
> the
> following graph (please see the attached image); this are graphs for
> adjusted power on the flywheel after recalculating looses between
> engine and
> wheels.
> What was really interesting is that he had a chance to test 2 other
> panteras
> recently; one was a client that had rebuilt engine using some
> "special
> parts", bt I am not sure of the actual spec while the other one was
> black
> GR4 replica that is currently listed for sale in Germany and was
> built
> by
> Braun Motorsport:
>
>
> [2][4][14]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-
> 4-m-his
>
> t-strass
>
> enzul-neuaufbau-neuried-bei-m%C3%BCnche/159513949.html?lang=de&pageNumb
> er=1&
>
> __lp=1&scopeId=C&sortOption.sortBy=creationTime&sortOption.sortOrder=DE
> SCEND
>
> ING&makeModelVariant1.makeId=7400&makeModelVariant1.searchInFreetext=fa
> lse&m
>
> akeModelVariant2.searchInFreetext=false&makeModelVariant3.searchInFreet
> ext=f
> alse&ambitCountry=DE&negativeFeatures=EXPORT
> So, finally, my engine did not even reach 250HP, another rebuild
> pantera
> motor did just over 300HP while Braun pantera did very nice 389HP;
> there is
> also Ford GT40 with racing motor in there; it did 410hp but at much
> higher
> RPM.
> The most impressive about the Braun car is how smooth the power
> curve
> is.
> So, now I am wondering where to go from here; could it be that it is
> as
> simple as wrong cam choice?
> If going to do a rebuild is there a good configuration someone could
> suggest
> that would use CHI3V heads and intake, as I already got those?
> As well, I had something strange happen twice with the gearbox; it
> got
> out
> of the 3rd gear by itself; would someone know if this could be due
> to
> any
> wrong linkage adjustment?
> Thanks, Robert
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> References
> 1. [7]mailto:[17]npdrs at maui.net
> 2.
> [8][18]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m
> -hist-s
> trass
> 3. [9]mailto:[19]DeTomaso at poca.com
> 4. [10][20]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
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> References
> 1. mailto:[23]bjbstewart at yahoo.com?
> 2. mailto:[24]detomaso at poca.com
> 3. mailto:[25]npdrs at maui.net
> 4.
> [26]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-hi
> s
> 5. mailto:[27]DeTomaso at poca.com
> 6. [28]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 7. mailto:[29]npdrs at maui.net?
> 8.
> [30]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-hi
> st-strass
> 9. mailto:[31]DeTomaso at poca.com?
> 10. [32]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
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> References
>
> 1. mailto:boyd411 at gmail.com
> 2. mailto:pantdino at aol.com
> 3. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
> 4. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
> 5. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
> 6.
> http://www.ebay.com/gds/Ford-351-Cleveland-Engines-Key-Facts-Information-/10000000001410755/g.html
> 7. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
> 8. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
> 9. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
> 10. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
> 11. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
> 12. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
> 13. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
> 14. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-his
> 15. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> 16. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 17. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
> 18.
> http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-hist-s
> 19. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> 20. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 21. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> 22. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 23. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
> 24. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
> 25. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
> 26. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-his
> 27. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> 28. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 29. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
> 30.
> http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-hist-strass
> 31. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> 32. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 33. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> 34. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 35. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> 36. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>
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--
Sean Korb spkorb at spkorb.org http://www.spkorb.org
'65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 Pantera #1382 "The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller "Computers are useless. They can only give you answers." -P. Picasso
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