[DeTomaso] FW: Moment of (sad) truth
Robert Stroj
npdrs at maui.net
Wed Jul 16 14:20:59 EDT 2014
Hi,
First thanks to all for your suggestions and sorry for delay on coming back;
was two weeks traveling without the internet connection.
My engine is not the one that was in the car; it is a 4 bolt 351C, here are
all the engine spec as I got them from a previous owner:
Engine
CUI : 351 Cleveland 4V
Heads : Australian (3) valve aluminum polished heads
($1,995)
: Polish ($175)
Intake : Polished aluminum Hi-Rise ($525)
: Polish ($175)
Carb : 780 CFM Holley 4-barrel carburetor
($512.99 Inc Shipping)
Cable : PI MotorSport Throttle Cable ($155)
Valves : Stainless Steel Exhaust/Intake valves ($900)
Cam : ISKY Solid Roller Camshaft with Lifters
($275)
Custom grind
Rockers : Roller Rockers ($275)
Chain : Duel Roller Chain ($57)
Exhaust : GTS Coated Headers and Mufflers ($850)
Water Pump: Aluminum High Flow ($208.65)
Radiator : Aluminum Radiator Assembly Pantera
Performance ($1,108.90)
Starter : High Performance Starter ($165)
Oil Pan : 10 Quart oil pan with windage tray ($400)
Ignition : Mallory Unilite Distributor, Mallory Coil,
Mallory Spark
Plug Wires ($280)
What I am the most worried about is the thing that car dies on idle after
being driven hard and then it is really hard to start; once did not start at
all.
When hot like this it turns really hard, as if the battery would be low, but
when cold it turns really well; my worry is that bearings could be really
worn and once the oil gets thin it increases the friction inside the engine.
The oil pressure gauge drops really low; when hot idling it just jumps
between 0 and ¼ of the gauge.
It all looks like I will need to do a complete rebuild and will be looking
to see which are good parts that I could successfully reuse; this is why
Brent’s motor configuration is really interesting as it uses same heads and
intake manifold.
I just got a lead to person that had a racing team using Mustang in German
Turing championship and is willing to help; hope to meet him next week.
All the best, Robert
From: Pantdino [mailto:pantdino at aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2014 5:28 PM
To: boyd411 at gmail.com
Cc: npdrs at maui.net; bjbstewart at yahoo.com; detomaso at poca.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] FW: Moment of (sad) truth
"Torque really means a lot more but the way the engine runs and how the car
drives is a lot more important then any dyne numbers. "
HP is actually calculated from torque, and the HP number the dyno guy gives
you is so full of "correction factors" it has to be taken with a grain of
salt I think in terms of comparing it to what someone else gets on different
dyno in a different city on a different day on a chassis vs engine dyno etc
-----Original Message-----
From: Boyd Casey <boyd411 at gmail.com>
To: Pantdino <pantdino at aol.com>
Cc: npdrs <npdrs at maui.net>; Brent Stewart <bjbstewart at yahoo.com>; detomaso
<detomaso at poca.com>
Sent: Tue, Jul 1, 2014 5:05 pm
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] FW: Moment of (sad) truth
Robert,
Do you know if your 71 engine was the original engine that came with your
Pantera? (a numbers matching engine). Around 90% of the Cleveland engines
made were not "high performance" engines. This link explains how to help
determine what type of engine yours was originally. Cleveland guide
<http://www.ebay.com/gds/Ford-351-Cleveland-Engines-Key-Facts-Information-/1
0000000001410755/g.html> even though your engine has good heads it may
have low compression pistons. You will only know what you actually have when
you get inside your engine. In the meantime you can do a compression check
to make sure all your 8 cylinders have close to the same compression. You
should also start with a good tune up. make sure you have the right plugs,
make sure your timing is set correctly. Depending on your cam a 7550 CFM
carb may be to big for your engine ( with a stock 351 ci displacement and
depending on your pistons compression ratio and your cam 750 cfm may be to
big. Lots of people thing bigger is better. To big a carb will do much more
harm then good when it comes to losing power. You also want to be sure your
carb is jetted and set properly. Getting the most out of an engine is like
navigating. You have to know where you are , before you can figure out how
to get where you want to go. So you have to know what you have before you
can figure out how to get the most out of it! HP numbers are just numbers.
Torque really means a lot more but the way the engine runs and how the car
drives is a lot more important then any dyne numbers. You want a car wit
good throttle response, a car that revs up quickly when you hit the gas.
Find a local mechanic that knows Cleveland engines and preferably Panteras
as well. Figure out what you actually have and how to maximize it before you
start throwing money at it. There are lots of good books on how to build
Cleveland engines as well as some great web sites dedicated to Cleveland
engines. Check out Clevelands forever (google it) or 351C.net. there are
also numerous books available at Amazon.com. You can also find loads of free
info on various forums on he web for free!
Good Luck!
Boyd
On Tue, Jul 1, 2014 at 3:23 PM, Pantdino via DeTomaso <detomaso at poca.com>
wrote:
It is a Holley vacuum secondary unit fitted by Steve Wilkinson-- he
said jetted for a Pantera.
-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Stroj <npdrs at maui.net>
To: 'Brent Stewart' <bjbstewart at yahoo.com>; detomaso
<detomaso at poca.com>
Sent: Tue, Jul 1, 2014 11:58 am
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] FW: Moment of (sad) truth
Hi Brent,
Thanks a lot, this is really good info!
What carburetor are you using?
Cheers,
Robert
From: Brent Stewart [[1]mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2014 5:32 AM
To: Robert Stroj; [2]detomaso at poca.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] FW: Moment of (sad) truth
Hi Robert,
I have the same CHI heads and intake. Here are my build specs incase
you want to utilize those in an engine update:
ENGINE SPECS:
Bennett Racing Dyno'd the engine and provided the spec sheet. The 351C
based 392 CID engine made 571 HP and 517 TQ @ 5800 RPM. Here are the
details of the build:
Parts list
. SCAT 3.85 Crankshaft, internally balanced
. SCAT 6.00 H Beam Rods
. Custom Ross Pistons
. Custom Bennett Racing Hydraulic Roller Cam
. Superformance Balancer
. Crane Link Bar Hydraulic Roller Lifters
. Comp Cams Pushrods
. Harland Sharp 4005 Roller Rockers
. CHI 228 3V aluminum Heads
. CHI high-rise intake
Build specs
. Bore: 4.030
. Crank: 3.850 9000 series
. Cam: 3018F-3039B 112
o Intake Lobe: 242 @ .050 .366 LL
o Exhaust Lobe: 250 @ .050 .363 LL
o Lobe Separation: 112
. Pushrods: 7.850 Comp Cams HD
On Tuesday, July 1, 2014 8:06 AM, Robert Stroj <[1][3]npdrs at maui.net>
wrote:
So, finally, my '71 Pantera got through all the import procedures and
is now
street legal in Europe/Germany!
Car is in very good shape, zero rust anywhere, suspension feels very
good to
drive (height adjustable koni set), brakes work well (wilwood
conversion),
but there is something not right with the motor.
Engine is a older 351C rebuild using original crankshaft and pistons.
Some
years later it was fitted with CHI 3V heads and intake system, SS
valves,
780 Holley and GTS exhaust system.
When driving the cart was pulling well, but definitely was not feeling
as
400-500HP car; this is what I was sort of expecting after talking to
person
who rebuild the engine as well as previous owner...it did not really
feel as
300HP car...
I had a chance to put it on the dyno at the friend's garage and got the
following graph (please see the attached image); this are graphs for
adjusted power on the flywheel after recalculating looses between
engine and
wheels.
What was really interesting is that he had a chance to test 2 other
panteras
recently; one was a client that had rebuilt engine using some "special
parts", bt I am not sure of the actual spec while the other one was
black
GR4 replica that is currently listed for sale in Germany and was built
by
Braun Motorsport:
[2][4]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-his
t-strass
enzul-neuaufbau-neuried-bei-m%C3%BCnche/159513949.html?lang=de&pageNumb
er=1&
__lp=1&scopeId=C&sortOption.sortBy=creationTime&sortOption.sortOrder=DE
SCEND
ING&makeModelVariant1.makeId=7400&makeModelVariant1.searchInFreetext=fa
lse&m
akeModelVariant2.searchInFreetext=false&makeModelVariant3.searchInFreet
ext=f
alse&ambitCountry=DE&negativeFeatures=EXPORT
So, finally, my engine did not even reach 250HP, another rebuild
pantera
motor did just over 300HP while Braun pantera did very nice 389HP;
there is
also Ford GT40 with racing motor in there; it did 410hp but at much
higher
RPM.
The most impressive about the Braun car is how smooth the power curve
is.
So, now I am wondering where to go from here; could it be that it is as
simple as wrong cam choice?
If going to do a rebuild is there a good configuration someone could
suggest
that would use CHI3V heads and intake, as I already got those?
As well, I had something strange happen twice with the gearbox; it got
out
of the 3rd gear by itself; would someone know if this could be due to
any
wrong linkage adjustment?
Thanks, Robert
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
DeTomaso mailing list
[3][5]DeTomaso at poca.com
[4][6]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
References
1. [7]mailto:npdrs at maui.net
2.
[8]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-hist-s
trass
3. [9]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
4. [10]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
DeTomaso mailing list
[11]DeTomaso at poca.com
[12]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
References
1. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com?
2. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
3. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
4. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-his
5. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
6. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
7. mailto:npdrs at maui.net?
8.
http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-hist-strass
9. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com?
10. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
11. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
12. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
DeTomaso mailing list
DeTomaso at poca.com
http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
-------------- next part --------------
Hi,
First thanks to all for your suggestions and sorry for delay on coming
back; was two weeks traveling without the internet connection.
My engine is not the one that was in the car; it is a 4 bolt 351C,
here are all the engine spec as I got them from a previous owner:
Engine
CUI : 351 Cleveland 4V
Heads : Australian (3) valve aluminum polished heads
($1,995)
: Polish ($175)
Intake : Polished aluminum Hi-Rise ($525)
: Polish ($175)
Carb : 780 CFM Holley 4-barrel carburetor
($512.99 Inc Shipping)
Cable : PI MotorSport Throttle Cable ($155)
Valves : Stainless Steel Exhaust/Intake valves ($900)
Cam : ISKY Solid Roller Camshaft with Lifters
($275)
Custom grind
Rockers : Roller Rockers ($275)
Chain : Duel Roller Chain ($57)
Exhaust : GTS Coated Headers and Mufflers ($850)
Water Pump: Aluminum High Flow ($208.65)
Radiator : Aluminum Radiator Assembly Pantera
Performance ($1,108.90)
Starter : High Performance Starter ($165)
Oil Pan : 10 Quart oil pan with windage tray
($400)
Ignition : Mallory Unilite Distributor, Mallory
Coil, Mallory Spark
Plug Wires ($280)
What I am the most worried about is the thing that car dies on idle
after being driven hard and then it is really hard to start; once did
not start at all.
When hot like this it turns really hard, as if the battery would be
low, but when cold it turns really well; my worry is that bearings
could be really worn and once the oil gets thin it increases the
friction inside the engine.
The oil pressure gauge drops really low; when hot idling it just jumps
between 0 and 1/4 of the gauge.
It all looks like I will need to do a complete rebuild and will be
looking to see which are good parts that I could successfully reuse;
this is why Brent's motor configuration is really interesting as it
uses same heads and intake manifold.
I just got a lead to person that had a racing team using Mustang in
German Turing championship and is willing to help; hope to meet him
next week.
All the best, Robert
From: Pantdino [mailto:pantdino at aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2014 5:28 PM
To: boyd411 at gmail.com
Cc: npdrs at maui.net; bjbstewart at yahoo.com; detomaso at poca.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] FW: Moment of (sad) truth
"Torque really means a lot more but the way the engine runs and how the
car drives is a lot more important then any dyne numbers. "
HP is actually calculated from torque, and the HP number the dyno guy
gives you is so full of "correction factors" it has to be taken with a
grain of salt I think in terms of comparing it to what someone else
gets on different dyno in a different city on a different day on a
chassis vs engine dyno etc
-----Original Message-----
From: Boyd Casey <[1]boyd411 at gmail.com>
To: Pantdino <[2]pantdino at aol.com>
Cc: npdrs <[3]npdrs at maui.net>; Brent Stewart <[4]bjbstewart at yahoo.com>;
detomaso <[5]detomaso at poca.com>
Sent: Tue, Jul 1, 2014 5:05 pm
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] FW: Moment of (sad) truth
Robert,
Do you know if your 71 engine was the original engine that came with
your Pantera? (a numbers matching engine). Around 90% of the Cleveland
engines made were not "high performance" engines. This link explains
how to help determine what type of engine yours was
originally. [6]Cleveland guide even though your engine has good heads
it may have low compression pistons. You will only know what you
actually have when you get inside your engine. In the meantime you can
do a compression check to make sure all your 8 cylinders have close to
the same compression. You should also start with a good tune up. make
sure you have the right plugs, make sure your timing is set correctly.
Depending on your cam a 7550 CFM carb may be to big for your engine (
with a stock 351 ci displacement and depending on your pistons
compression ratio and your cam 750 cfm may be to big. Lots of people
thing bigger is better. To big a carb will do much more harm then good
when it comes to losing power. You also want to be sure your carb is
jetted and set properly. Getting the most out of an engine is like
navigating. You have to know where you are , before you can figure out
how to get where you want to go. So you have to know what you have
before you can figure out how to get the most out of it! HP numbers are
just numbers. Torque really means a lot more but the way the engine
runs and how the car drives is a lot more important then any dyne
numbers. You want a car wit good throttle response, a car that revs up
quickly when you hit the gas. Find a local mechanic that knows
Cleveland engines and preferably Panteras as well. Figure out what you
actually have and how to maximize it before you start throwing money at
it. There are lots of good books on how to build Cleveland engines as
well as some great web sites dedicated to Cleveland engines. Check out
Clevelands forever (google it) or 351C.net. there are also numerous
books available at Amazon.com. You can also find loads of free info on
various forums on he web for free!
Good Luck!
Boyd
On Tue, Jul 1, 2014 at 3:23 PM, Pantdino via DeTomaso
<[7]detomaso at poca.com> wrote:
It is a Holley vacuum secondary unit fitted by Steve Wilkinson-- he
said jetted for a Pantera.
-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Stroj <[8]npdrs at maui.net>
To: 'Brent Stewart' <[9]bjbstewart at yahoo.com>; detomaso
<[10]detomaso at poca.com>
Sent: Tue, Jul 1, 2014 11:58 am
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] FW: Moment of (sad) truth
Hi Brent,
Thanks a lot, this is really good info!
What carburetor are you using?
Cheers,
Robert
From: Brent Stewart [[1]mailto:[11]bjbstewart at yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2014 5:32 AM
To: Robert Stroj; [2][12]detomaso at poca.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] FW: Moment of (sad) truth
Hi Robert,
I have the same CHI heads and intake. Here are my build specs
incase
you want to utilize those in an engine update:
ENGINE SPECS:
Bennett Racing Dyno'd the engine and provided the spec sheet. The
351C
based 392 CID engine made 571 HP and 517 TQ @ 5800 RPM. Here are
the
details of the build:
Parts list
. SCAT 3.85 Crankshaft, internally balanced
. SCAT 6.00 H Beam Rods
. Custom Ross Pistons
. Custom Bennett Racing Hydraulic Roller Cam
. Superformance Balancer
. Crane Link Bar Hydraulic Roller Lifters
. Comp Cams Pushrods
. Harland Sharp 4005 Roller Rockers
. CHI 228 3V aluminum Heads
. CHI high-rise intake
Build specs
. Bore: 4.030
. Crank: 3.850 9000 series
. Cam: 3018F-3039B 112
o Intake Lobe: 242 @ .050 .366 LL
o Exhaust Lobe: 250 @ .050 .363 LL
o Lobe Separation: 112
. Pushrods: 7.850 Comp Cams HD
On Tuesday, July 1, 2014 8:06 AM, Robert Stroj
<[1][3][13]npdrs at maui.net>
wrote:
So, finally, my '71 Pantera got through all the import procedures
and
is now
street legal in Europe/Germany!
Car is in very good shape, zero rust anywhere, suspension feels very
good to
drive (height adjustable koni set), brakes work well (wilwood
conversion),
but there is something not right with the motor.
Engine is a older 351C rebuild using original crankshaft and
pistons.
Some
years later it was fitted with CHI 3V heads and intake system, SS
valves,
780 Holley and GTS exhaust system.
When driving the cart was pulling well, but definitely was not
feeling
as
400-500HP car; this is what I was sort of expecting after talking to
person
who rebuild the engine as well as previous owner...it did not really
feel as
300HP car...
I had a chance to put it on the dyno at the friend's garage and got
the
following graph (please see the attached image); this are graphs for
adjusted power on the flywheel after recalculating looses between
engine and
wheels.
What was really interesting is that he had a chance to test 2 other
panteras
recently; one was a client that had rebuilt engine using some
"special
parts", bt I am not sure of the actual spec while the other one was
black
GR4 replica that is currently listed for sale in Germany and was
built
by
Braun Motorsport:
[2][4][14]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-
4-m-his
t-strass
enzul-neuaufbau-neuried-bei-m%C3%BCnche/159513949.html?lang=de&pageNumb
er=1&
__lp=1&scopeId=C&sortOption.sortBy=creationTime&sortOption.sortOrder=DE
SCEND
ING&makeModelVariant1.makeId=7400&makeModelVariant1.searchInFreetext=fa
lse&m
akeModelVariant2.searchInFreetext=false&makeModelVariant3.searchInFreet
ext=f
alse&ambitCountry=DE&negativeFeatures=EXPORT
So, finally, my engine did not even reach 250HP, another rebuild
pantera
motor did just over 300HP while Braun pantera did very nice 389HP;
there is
also Ford GT40 with racing motor in there; it did 410hp but at much
higher
RPM.
The most impressive about the Braun car is how smooth the power
curve
is.
So, now I am wondering where to go from here; could it be that it is
as
simple as wrong cam choice?
If going to do a rebuild is there a good configuration someone could
suggest
that would use CHI3V heads and intake, as I already got those?
As well, I had something strange happen twice with the gearbox; it
got
out
of the 3rd gear by itself; would someone know if this could be due
to
any
wrong linkage adjustment?
Thanks, Robert
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
DeTomaso mailing list
[3][5][15]DeTomaso at poca.com
[4][6][16]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
References
1. [7]mailto:[17]npdrs at maui.net
2.
[8][18]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m
-hist-s
trass
3. [9]mailto:[19]DeTomaso at poca.com
4. [10][20]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
DeTomaso mailing list
[11][21]DeTomaso at poca.com
[12][22]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
References
1. mailto:[23]bjbstewart at yahoo.com?
2. mailto:[24]detomaso at poca.com
3. mailto:[25]npdrs at maui.net
4.
[26]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-hi
s
5. mailto:[27]DeTomaso at poca.com
6. [28]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
7. mailto:[29]npdrs at maui.net?
8.
[30]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-hi
st-strass
9. mailto:[31]DeTomaso at poca.com?
10. [32]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
11. mailto:[33]DeTomaso at poca.com
12. [34]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
DeTomaso mailing list
[35]DeTomaso at poca.com
[36]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
References
1. mailto:boyd411 at gmail.com
2. mailto:pantdino at aol.com
3. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
4. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
5. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
6. http://www.ebay.com/gds/Ford-351-Cleveland-Engines-Key-Facts-Information-/10000000001410755/g.html
7. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
8. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
9. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
10. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
11. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
12. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
13. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
14. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-his
15. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
16. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
17. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
18. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-hist-s
19. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
20. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
21. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
22. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
23. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
24. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
25. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
26. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-his
27. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
28. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
29. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
30. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-hist-strass
31. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
32. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
33. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
34. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
35. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
36. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
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