[DeTomaso] FW: Moment of (sad) truth
Pantdino
pantdino at aol.com
Tue Jul 1 23:28:23 EDT 2014
"Torque really means a lot more but the way the engine runs and how the car drives is a lot more important then any dyne numbers. "
HP is actually calculated from torque, and the HP number the dyno guy gives you is so full of "correction factors" it has to be taken with a grain of salt I think in terms of comparing it to what someone else gets on different dyno in a different city on a different day on a chassis vs engine dyno etc
-----Original Message-----
From: Boyd Casey <boyd411 at gmail.com>
To: Pantdino <pantdino at aol.com>
Cc: npdrs <npdrs at maui.net>; Brent Stewart <bjbstewart at yahoo.com>; detomaso <detomaso at poca.com>
Sent: Tue, Jul 1, 2014 5:05 pm
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] FW: Moment of (sad) truth
Robert,
Do you know if your 71 engine was the original engine that came with your Pantera? (a numbers matching engine). Around 90% of the Cleveland engines made were not "high performance" engines. This link explains how to help determine what type of engine yours was originally. Cleveland guide even though your engine has good heads it may have low compression pistons. You will only know what you actually have when you get inside your engine. In the meantime you can do a compression check to make sure all your 8 cylinders have close to the same compression. You should also start with a good tune up. make sure you have the right plugs, make sure your timing is set correctly. Depending on your cam a 7550 CFM carb may be to big for your engine ( with a stock 351 ci displacement and depending on your pistons compression ratio and your cam 750 cfm may be to big. Lots of people thing bigger is better. To big a carb will do much more harm then good when it comes to losing power. You also want to be sure your carb is jetted and set properly. Getting the most out of an engine is like navigating. You have to know where you are , before you can figure out how to get where you want to go. So you have to know what you have before you can figure out how to get the most out of it! HP numbers are just numbers. Torque really means a lot more but the way the engine runs and how the car drives is a lot more important then any dyne numbers. You want a car wit good throttle response, a car that revs up quickly when you hit the gas. Find a local mechanic that knows Cleveland engines and preferably Panteras as well. Figure out what you actually have and how to maximize it before you start throwing money at it. There are lots of good books on how to build Cleveland engines as well as some great web sites dedicated to Cleveland engines. Check out Clevelands forever (google it) or 351C.net. there are also numerous books available at Amazon.com. You can also find loads of free info on various forums on he web for free!
Good Luck!
Boyd
On Tue, Jul 1, 2014 at 3:23 PM, Pantdino via DeTomaso <detomaso at poca.com> wrote:
It is a Holley vacuum secondary unit fitted by Steve Wilkinson-- he
said jetted for a Pantera.
-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Stroj <npdrs at maui.net>
To: 'Brent Stewart' <bjbstewart at yahoo.com>; detomaso
<detomaso at poca.com>
Sent: Tue, Jul 1, 2014 11:58 am
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] FW: Moment of (sad) truth
Hi Brent,
Thanks a lot, this is really good info!
What carburetor are you using?
Cheers,
Robert
From: Brent Stewart [[1]mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2014 5:32 AM
To: Robert Stroj; [2]detomaso at poca.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] FW: Moment of (sad) truth
Hi Robert,
I have the same CHI heads and intake. Here are my build specs incase
you want to utilize those in an engine update:
ENGINE SPECS:
Bennett Racing Dyno'd the engine and provided the spec sheet. The 351C
based 392 CID engine made 571 HP and 517 TQ @ 5800 RPM. Here are the
details of the build:
Parts list
. SCAT 3.85 Crankshaft, internally balanced
. SCAT 6.00 H Beam Rods
. Custom Ross Pistons
. Custom Bennett Racing Hydraulic Roller Cam
. Superformance Balancer
. Crane Link Bar Hydraulic Roller Lifters
. Comp Cams Pushrods
. Harland Sharp 4005 Roller Rockers
. CHI 228 3V aluminum Heads
. CHI high-rise intake
Build specs
. Bore: 4.030
. Crank: 3.850 9000 series
. Cam: 3018F-3039B 112
o Intake Lobe: 242 @ .050 .366 LL
o Exhaust Lobe: 250 @ .050 .363 LL
o Lobe Separation: 112
. Pushrods: 7.850 Comp Cams HD
On Tuesday, July 1, 2014 8:06 AM, Robert Stroj <[1][3]npdrs at maui.net>
wrote:
So, finally, my '71 Pantera got through all the import procedures and
is now
street legal in Europe/Germany!
Car is in very good shape, zero rust anywhere, suspension feels very
good to
drive (height adjustable koni set), brakes work well (wilwood
conversion),
but there is something not right with the motor.
Engine is a older 351C rebuild using original crankshaft and pistons.
Some
years later it was fitted with CHI 3V heads and intake system, SS
valves,
780 Holley and GTS exhaust system.
When driving the cart was pulling well, but definitely was not feeling
as
400-500HP car; this is what I was sort of expecting after talking to
person
who rebuild the engine as well as previous owner...it did not really
feel as
300HP car...
I had a chance to put it on the dyno at the friend's garage and got the
following graph (please see the attached image); this are graphs for
adjusted power on the flywheel after recalculating looses between
engine and
wheels.
What was really interesting is that he had a chance to test 2 other
panteras
recently; one was a client that had rebuilt engine using some "special
parts", bt I am not sure of the actual spec while the other one was
black
GR4 replica that is currently listed for sale in Germany and was built
by
Braun Motorsport:
[2][4]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-his
t-strass
enzul-neuaufbau-neuried-bei-m%C3%BCnche/159513949.html?lang=de&pageNumb
er=1&
__lp=1&scopeId=C&sortOption.sortBy=creationTime&sortOption.sortOrder=DE
SCEND
ING&makeModelVariant1.makeId=7400&makeModelVariant1.searchInFreetext=fa
lse&m
akeModelVariant2.searchInFreetext=false&makeModelVariant3.searchInFreet
ext=f
alse&ambitCountry=DE&negativeFeatures=EXPORT
So, finally, my engine did not even reach 250HP, another rebuild
pantera
motor did just over 300HP while Braun pantera did very nice 389HP;
there is
also Ford GT40 with racing motor in there; it did 410hp but at much
higher
RPM.
The most impressive about the Braun car is how smooth the power curve
is.
So, now I am wondering where to go from here; could it be that it is as
simple as wrong cam choice?
If going to do a rebuild is there a good configuration someone could
suggest
that would use CHI3V heads and intake, as I already got those?
As well, I had something strange happen twice with the gearbox; it got
out
of the 3rd gear by itself; would someone know if this could be due to
any
wrong linkage adjustment?
Thanks, Robert
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
DeTomaso mailing list
[3][5]DeTomaso at poca.com
[4][6]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
References
1. [7]mailto:npdrs at maui.net
2. [8]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-hist-s
trass
3. [9]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
4. [10]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
DeTomaso mailing list
[11]DeTomaso at poca.com
[12]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
References
1. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com?
2. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
3. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
4. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-his
5. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
6. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
7. mailto:npdrs at maui.net?
8. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-hist-strass
9. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com?
10. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
11. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
12. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
DeTomaso mailing list
DeTomaso at poca.com
http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
-------------- next part --------------
"Torque really means a lot more but the way the engine runs and how the
car drives is a lot more important then any dyne numbers. "
HP is actually calculated from torque, and the HP number the dyno guy
gives you is so full of "correction factors" it has to be taken with a
grain of salt I think in terms of comparing it to what someone else
gets on different dyno in a different city on a different day on a
chassis vs engine dyno etc
-----Original Message-----
From: Boyd Casey <boyd411 at gmail.com>
To: Pantdino <pantdino at aol.com>
Cc: npdrs <npdrs at maui.net>; Brent Stewart <bjbstewart at yahoo.com>;
detomaso <detomaso at poca.com>
Sent: Tue, Jul 1, 2014 5:05 pm
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] FW: Moment of (sad) truth
Robert,
Do you know if your 71 engine was the original engine that came with
your Pantera? (a numbers matching engine). Around 90% of the Cleveland
engines made were not "high performance" engines. This link explains
how to help determine what type of engine yours was
originally. [1]Cleveland guide even though your engine has good heads
it may have low compression pistons. You will only know what you
actually have when you get inside your engine. In the meantime you can
do a compression check to make sure all your 8 cylinders have close to
the same compression. You should also start with a good tune up. make
sure you have the right plugs, make sure your timing is set correctly.
Depending on your cam a 7550 CFM carb may be to big for your engine (
with a stock 351 ci displacement and depending on your pistons
compression ratio and your cam 750 cfm may be to big. Lots of people
thing bigger is better. To big a carb will do much more harm then good
when it comes to losing power. You also want to be sure your carb is
jetted and set properly. Getting the most out of an engine is like
navigating. You have to know where you are , before you can figure out
how to get where you want to go. So you have to know what you have
before you can figure out how to get the most out of it! HP numbers are
just numbers. Torque really means a lot more but the way the engine
runs and how the car drives is a lot more important then any dyne
numbers. You want a car wit good throttle response, a car that revs up
quickly when you hit the gas. Find a local mechanic that knows
Cleveland engines and preferably Panteras as well. Figure out what you
actually have and how to maximize it before you start throwing money at
it. There are lots of good books on how to build Cleveland engines as
well as some great web sites dedicated to Cleveland engines. Check out
Clevelands forever (google it) or 351C.net. there are also numerous
books available at Amazon.com. You can also find loads of free info on
various forums on he web for free!
Good Luck!
Boyd
On Tue, Jul 1, 2014 at 3:23 PM, Pantdino via DeTomaso
<[2]detomaso at poca.com> wrote:
It is a Holley vacuum secondary unit fitted by Steve Wilkinson--
he
said jetted for a Pantera.
-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Stroj <[3]npdrs at maui.net>
To: 'Brent Stewart' <[4]bjbstewart at yahoo.com>; detomaso
<[5]detomaso at poca.com>
Sent: Tue, Jul 1, 2014 11:58 am
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] FW: Moment of (sad) truth
Hi Brent,
Thanks a lot, this is really good info!
What carburetor are you using?
Cheers,
Robert
From: Brent Stewart [[1]mailto:[6]bjbstewart at yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2014 5:32 AM
To: Robert Stroj; [2][7]detomaso at poca.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] FW: Moment of (sad) truth
Hi Robert,
I have the same CHI heads and intake. Here are my build specs
incase
you want to utilize those in an engine update:
ENGINE SPECS:
Bennett Racing Dyno'd the engine and provided the spec sheet. The
351C
based 392 CID engine made 571 HP and 517 TQ @ 5800 RPM. Here are
the
details of the build:
Parts list
. SCAT 3.85 Crankshaft, internally balanced
. SCAT 6.00 H Beam Rods
. Custom Ross Pistons
. Custom Bennett Racing Hydraulic Roller Cam
. Superformance Balancer
. Crane Link Bar Hydraulic Roller Lifters
. Comp Cams Pushrods
. Harland Sharp 4005 Roller Rockers
. CHI 228 3V aluminum Heads
. CHI high-rise intake
Build specs
. Bore: 4.030
. Crank: 3.850 9000 series
. Cam: 3018F-3039B 112
o Intake Lobe: 242 @ .050 .366 LL
o Exhaust Lobe: 250 @ .050 .363 LL
o Lobe Separation: 112
. Pushrods: 7.850 Comp Cams HD
On Tuesday, July 1, 2014 8:06 AM, Robert Stroj
<[1][3][8]npdrs at maui.net>
wrote:
So, finally, my '71 Pantera got through all the import procedures
and
is now
street legal in Europe/Germany!
Car is in very good shape, zero rust anywhere, suspension feels very
good to
drive (height adjustable koni set), brakes work well (wilwood
conversion),
but there is something not right with the motor.
Engine is a older 351C rebuild using original crankshaft and
pistons.
Some
years later it was fitted with CHI 3V heads and intake system, SS
valves,
780 Holley and GTS exhaust system.
When driving the cart was pulling well, but definitely was not
feeling
as
400-500HP car; this is what I was sort of expecting after talking to
person
who rebuild the engine as well as previous owner...it did not really
feel as
300HP car...
I had a chance to put it on the dyno at the friend's garage and got
the
following graph (please see the attached image); this are graphs for
adjusted power on the flywheel after recalculating looses between
engine and
wheels.
What was really interesting is that he had a chance to test 2 other
panteras
recently; one was a client that had rebuilt engine using some
"special
parts", bt I am not sure of the actual spec while the other one was
black
GR4 replica that is currently listed for sale in Germany and was
built
by
Braun Motorsport:
[2][4][9]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-grupp
e-4-m-his
t-strass
enzul-neuaufbau-neuried-bei-m%C3%BCnche/159513949.html?lang=de&pageNumb
er=1&
__lp=1&scopeId=C&sortOption.sortBy=creationTime&sortOption.sortOrder=DE
SCEND
ING&makeModelVariant1.makeId=7400&makeModelVariant1.searchInFreetext=fa
lse&m
akeModelVariant2.searchInFreetext=false&makeModelVariant3.searchInFreet
ext=f
alse&ambitCountry=DE&negativeFeatures=EXPORT
So, finally, my engine did not even reach 250HP, another rebuild
pantera
motor did just over 300HP while Braun pantera did very nice 389HP;
there is
also Ford GT40 with racing motor in there; it did 410hp but at much
higher
RPM.
The most impressive about the Braun car is how smooth the power
curve
is.
So, now I am wondering where to go from here; could it be that it is
as
simple as wrong cam choice?
If going to do a rebuild is there a good configuration someone could
suggest
that would use CHI3V heads and intake, as I already got those?
As well, I had something strange happen twice with the gearbox; it
got
out
of the 3rd gear by itself; would someone know if this could be due
to
any
wrong linkage adjustment?
Thanks, Robert
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
DeTomaso mailing list
[3][5][10]DeTomaso at poca.com
[4][6][11]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
References
1. [7]mailto:[12]npdrs at maui.net
2.
[8][13]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-
4-m-hist-s
trass
3. [9]mailto:[14]DeTomaso at poca.com
4. [10][15]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
DeTomaso mailing list
[11][16]DeTomaso at poca.com
[12][17]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
References
1. mailto:[18]bjbstewart at yahoo.com?
2. mailto:[19]detomaso at poca.com
3. mailto:[20]npdrs at maui.net
4.
[21]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m
-his
5. mailto:[22]DeTomaso at poca.com
6. [23]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
7. mailto:[24]npdrs at maui.net?
8.
[25]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m
-hist-strass
9. mailto:[26]DeTomaso at poca.com?
10. [27]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
11. mailto:[28]DeTomaso at poca.com
12. [29]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
DeTomaso mailing list
[30]DeTomaso at poca.com
[31]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
References
1. http://www.ebay.com/gds/Ford-351-Cleveland-Engines-Key-Facts-Information-/10000000001410755/g.html
2. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
3. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
4. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
5. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
6. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
7. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
8. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
9. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-his
10. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
11. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
12. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
13. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-hist-s
14. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
15. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
16. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
17. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
18. mailto:bjbstewart at yahoo.com
19. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
20. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
21. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-his
22. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
23. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
24. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
25. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-hist-strass
26. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
27. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
28. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
29. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
30. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
31. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
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