[DeTomaso] Stack injection units
Kirby Schrader
kirby.schrader at gmail.com
Tue Jul 1 12:23:41 EDT 2014
A couple of comments to Dan's email.
On Tue, Jul 1, 2014 at 10:50 AM, Daniel C Jones <daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> A non-linear throttle linkage is a must.
>
Most definitely!
I drove my Pantera for years with a side pull linkage.
It was a PITA to drive around town at low speeds. Just a small push of the
pedal
made too much happen too fast.
With Mike Trusty's help, I converted it to a center pull progressive setup
and it's a different car entirely.
The later TWM setups come with a wheel mounted in the center which works
very, very well.
I have that on my GT40.
> To date, we have not been successful in getting Kelly's Electromotive
> unit sorted.A We swapped ECU's, software, various hardware bits, etcs
> all to no avail.A Mike Trusty even came in to do some diagnostics but
> was unable to find the problem.
Wow... I know the pain.
When I installed my GT40 Electromotive system, I fought with it for three
months. Literally.
Changed ECU's, cursed, pulled hair and other things and no change.
I finally found the problem. The harness was built poorly and there was an
intermittent
connection at the plug where it went into the ECU.
Got a replacement harness (had to re-wire everything, of course) and
everything worked fine.
Painful experience....
Another thing I've noticed with both my IR systems... and had it confirmed
by another GT40 owner with a similar setup.
There's a 'hole' in the VE table. Both of my cars have it.
The response at full throttle is damned near linear.
However, both engines run way too rich at cruise speeds and I have to take
out a lot of fuel at lower rpms and high manifold vacuum.
I don't know why, I just know that's the way the engines respond.
Easy to adjust, just goes against most advice I received.
FWIW,
Kirby
>
> On Tue, Jul 1, 2014 at 7:23 AM, Kirby Schrader
> <[1]kirby.schrader at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> A A Yep. TWM was bought out by Borla some time ago. Three years?
> Maybe
> A A more.
> A A Gary is still there though and very helpful.
> A A I like the TWM throttle bodies. I have them on my Pantera and
> my GT40.
> A A The Pantera has older style throttle bodies which were supplied
> in the
> A A mid-90's by Quella with an old F9 Haltech EFI system.
> A
> A [1][2]http://www.spacecitypanteras.com/kirbyschrader/tws/tws2/kirb
> yefi.jpg
> A A The fuel rails are on the outside, as you can see.
> A A I honestly don't know if Quella still does the EFI systems.
> Last time I
> A A talked to him he sorta' indicated he no longer does.
> A A You'd have to check.
> A A When the ancient F9 in the Pantera let all the smoke out, I
> replaced it
> A A with an Electromotive TEC GT.
> A A The GT40 has an Electromotive TEC3r.
> A
> A [2][3]http://www.spacecitypanteras.com/kirbyschrader/GT40/files/p5
> 260043.j
> A A pg.jpg
> A A The fuel rails are on the inside with this setup and it looks
> A A 'cleaner', I think.
> A A I like both TEC units. They work.
> A A The TEC3r is more expensive, but has more control and
> inputs/outputs
> A A and can do fully sequential injection on a V8.
> A A The TEC GT can only do what I call 'batch fire' on a V8.
> A A That old saying... you get what you pay for.
> A A Lots of people like the FAST system. I have no experience with
> it.
> A A Steve Hawkins uses the Accel system and seems to like it.
> A A FWIW,
> A A Kirby
>
> A A On Tue, Jul 1, 2014 at 6:58 AM, Will Kooiman
> A A <[3][4]will.kooiman at gmail.com> wrote:
> A A A The throttle bodies I like the most are made by
>
> A A A [4][5]http://www.borlainduction.com. A They are obviously
> throttle
>
> A A A bodies, but
> A A A they look like they belong in the 60's/70's.
>
> A A A This used to be [5][6]twminduction.com. A ThatA^1s news to
> me though.
> A A A A I went to
> A A A their old site, [6][7]http://www.twminduction.com, and it
> was
>
> A A A redirected to the
> A A A borla induction website.
> A A A I have seen some based on real Weber bodies with small
> injectors
> A A A hidden
>
> A A A inside. A It's an interesting idea, but I'd probably stick
> with the
> A A A TWM
> A A A bodies.
> A A A Superior depends on what is important to you. A In my
> opinion, the
> A A A biggest
> A A A considerations are cost, looks, and the electronics. A Some
> may
>
> A A A outperform
> A A A others, but I doubt that it comes without setup headaches.
> A A A And finally, unless you plan on designing a lot of it yourself,
> I'd
> A A A stick
>
> A A A with a complete system. A I normally recommend Dennis Q.,
> but don't
> A A A forget
> A A A that Jim Inglese is still in business. A He knows Webers
> like nobody
>
> A A A else,
> A A A and now he's doing EFI too.
> A A A --
> A A A Will
>
> A A A On 7/1/14 12:56 AM, "[7][8]shawkins777 at comcast.net"
> A A A <[8][9]shawkins777 at comcast.net>
> A A A wrote:
> A A >
> A A > A A Are you looking for an EFI setup? A If you are I would
> recommend
> A A The
> A A > A A ACCEl electronics. A I went thru Dennes Quella for the
> manifold
> A A and
> A A > A A throttle bodies.
> A A >
> A A >
> A A > A A Steve
> A A > A A A
> A
> A __________________________________________________________________
> A A >
> A A > A A From: "Boyd Casey" <[9][10]boyd411 at gmail.com>
> A A > A A To: [10][11]detomaso at poca.com
> A A > A A Sent: Monday, June 30, 2014 11:40:27 PM
> A A > A A Subject: [DeTomaso] Stack injection units
> A A > A A Is there a consensus as far as which stack injection unit
> is :
> A A > A A 1.the best?
> A A > A A 2. Best deal ?
> A A > A A 3. are the units that use actual webers and weber
> manifolds
> A A considered
> A A > A A Superior?
> A A > A A 4. one to avoid?
> A A > A A Any other considerations one should be aware of?
> A A > A A Thanks.
> A A > A A Boyd
> A A > A A _______________________________________________
> A A > A A Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> A A > A A DeTomaso mailing list
> A A > A A [11][12]DeTomaso at poca.com
> A A > A
> A [12][13]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>
> A A >_______________________________________________
> A A >
> A A >Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> A A >
> A A >DeTomaso mailing list
>
> A A >[13][14]DeTomaso at poca.com
> A A >[14][15]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>
> A A _______________________________________________
> A A Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> A A DeTomaso mailing list
>
> A A [15][16]DeTomaso at poca.com
> A A [16][17]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> References
> A A 1.
> [18]http://www.spacecitypanteras.com/kirbyschrader/tws/tws2/kirbyefi
> .jpg
> A A 2.
> [19]http://www.spacecitypanteras.com/kirbyschrader/GT40/files/p52600
> 43.jpg.jpg
> A A 3. mailto:[20]will.kooiman at gmail.com
> A A 4. [21]http://www.borlainduction.com/
> A A 5. [22]http://twminduction.com/
> A A 6. [23]http://www.twminduction.com/
> A A 7. mailto:[24]shawkins777 at comcast.net
> A A 8. mailto:[25]shawkins777 at comcast.net
> A A 9. mailto:[26]boyd411 at gmail.com
> A 10. mailto:[27]detomaso at poca.com
> A 11. mailto:[28]DeTomaso at poca.com
> A 12. [29]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> A 13. mailto:[30]DeTomaso at poca.com
> A 14. [31]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> A 15. mailto:[32]DeTomaso at poca.com
> A 16. [33]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> _______________________________________________
> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> DeTomaso mailing list
> [34]DeTomaso at poca.com
> [35]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>
> References
>
> 1. mailto:kirby.schrader at gmail.com
> 2. http://www.spacecitypanteras.com/kirbyschrader/tws/tws2/kirbyefi.jpg
> 3. http://www.spacecitypanteras.com/kirbyschrader/GT40/files/p5260043.j
> 4. mailto:will.kooiman at gmail.com
> 5. http://www.borlainduction.com/
> 6. http://twminduction.com/
> 7. http://www.twminduction.com/
> 8. mailto:shawkins777 at comcast.net
> 9. mailto:shawkins777 at comcast.net
> 10. mailto:boyd411 at gmail.com
> 11. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
> 12. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> 13. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 14. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> 15. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 16. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> 17. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 18. http://www.spacecitypanteras.com/kirbyschrader/tws/tws2/kirbyefi.jpg
> 19.
> http://www.spacecitypanteras.com/kirbyschrader/GT40/files/p5260043.jpg.jpg
> 20. mailto:will.kooiman at gmail.com
> 21. http://www.borlainduction.com/
> 22. http://twminduction.com/
> 23. http://www.twminduction.com/
> 24. mailto:shawkins777 at comcast.net
> 25. mailto:shawkins777 at comcast.net
> 26. mailto:boyd411 at gmail.com
> 27. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
> 28. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> 29. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 30. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> 31. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 32. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> 33. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 34. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
> 35. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at poca.com
> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
A couple of comments to Dan's email.
On Tue, Jul 1, 2014 at 10:50 AM, Daniel C Jones
<[1]daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com> wrote:
A A
A non-linear throttle linkage is a must.
Most definitely!
I drove my Pantera for years with a side pull linkage.
It was a PITA to drive around town at low speeds. Just a small push of
the pedal
made too much happen too fast.
With Mike Trusty's help, I converted it to a center pull progressive
setup and it's a different car entirely.
The later TWM setups come with a wheel mounted in the center which
works very, very well.
I have that on my GT40.
A
A A To date, we have not been successful in getting Kelly's
Electromotive
A A unit sorted.A A We swapped ECU's, software, various hardware
bits, etcs
A A all to no avail.A A Mike Trusty even came in to do some
diagnostics but
A A was unable to find the problem.
A
Wow... I know the pain.
When I installed my GT40 Electromotive system, I fought with it for
three months. Literally.
Changed ECU's, cursed, pulled hair and other things and no change.
I finally found the problem. The harness was built poorly and there was
an intermittent
connection at the plug where it went into the ECU.
Got a replacement harness (had to re-wire everything, of course) and
everything worked fine.
Painful experience....
Another thing I've noticed with both my IR systems... and had it
confirmed by another GT40 owner with a similar setup.
There's a 'hole' in the VE table. Both of my cars have it.
The response at full throttle is damned near linear.
However, both engines run way too rich at cruise speeds and I have to
take out a lot of fuel at lower rpms and high manifold vacuum.
I don't know why, I just know that's the way the engines respond.
Easy to adjust, just goes against most advice I received.
FWIW,
Kirby
A
A A On Tue, Jul 1, 2014 at 7:23 AM, Kirby Schrader
A A <[1][2]kirby.schrader at gmail.com> wrote:
A A A A A A Yep. TWM was bought out by Borla some time ago. Three
years?
A A A Maybe
A A A A A A more.
A A A A A A Gary is still there though and very helpful.
A A A A A A I like the TWM throttle bodies. I have them on my
Pantera and
A A A my GT40.
A A A A A A The Pantera has older style throttle bodies which were
supplied
A A A in the
A A A A A A mid-90's by Quella with an old F9 Haltech EFI system.
A A A A
A A A A
[1][2][3]http://www.spacecitypanteras.com/kirbyschrader/tws/tws2/kir
b
A A A yefi.jpg
A A A A A A The fuel rails are on the outside, as you can see.
A A A A A A I honestly don't know if Quella still does the EFI
systems.
A A A Last time I
A A A A A A talked to him he sorta' indicated he no longer does.
A A A A A A You'd have to check.
A A A A A A When the ancient F9 in the Pantera let all the smoke
out, I
A A A replaced it
A A A A A A with an Electromotive TEC GT.
A A A A A A The GT40 has an Electromotive TEC3r.
A A A A
A A A A
[2][3][4]http://www.spacecitypanteras.com/kirbyschrader/GT40/files/p
5
A A A 260043.j
A A A A A A pg.jpg
A A A A A A The fuel rails are on the inside with this setup and
it looks
A A A A A A 'cleaner', I think.
A A A A A A I like both TEC units. They work.
A A A A A A The TEC3r is more expensive, but has more control and
A A A inputs/outputs
A A A A A A and can do fully sequential injection on a V8.
A A A A A A The TEC GT can only do what I call 'batch fire' on a
V8.
A A A A A A That old saying... you get what you pay for.
A A A A A A Lots of people like the FAST system. I have no
experience with
A A A it.
A A A A A A Steve Hawkins uses the Accel system and seems to like
it.
A A A A A A FWIW,
A A A A A A Kirby
A A A A A On Tue, Jul 1, 2014 at 6:58 AM, Will Kooiman
A A A A A <[3][4][5]will.kooiman at gmail.com> wrote:
A A A A A A A The throttle bodies I like the most are made by
A A A A A A A A [4][5][6]http://www.borlainduction.com. A They are
obviously
A A A throttle
A A A A A A A bodies, but
A A A A A A A they look like they belong in the 60's/70's.
A A A A A A A A This used to be [5][6][7]twminduction.com. A
ThatA^1s news to
A A A me though.
A A A A A A A A A I went to
A A A A A A A A their old site,
[6][7][8]http://www.twminduction.com, and it
A A A was
A A A A A A A redirected to the
A A A A A A A borla induction website.
A A A A A A A I have seen some based on real Weber bodies with
small
A A injectors
A A A A A A A hidden
A A A A A A A A inside. A It's an interesting idea, but I'd
probably stick
A A A with the
A A A A A A A A TWM
A A A A A A A A bodies.
A A A A A A A A Superior depends on what is important to you. A In
my
A A A opinion, the
A A A A A A A A biggest
A A A A A A A A considerations are cost, looks, and the
electronics. A Some
A A A may
A A A A A A A outperform
A A A A A A A others, but I doubt that it comes without setup
headaches.
A A A A A A A And finally, unless you plan on designing a lot of it
yourself,
A A I'd
A A A A A A A stick
A A A A A A A A with a complete system. A I normally recommend
Dennis Q.,
A A A but don't
A A A A A A A A forget
A A A A A A A A that Jim Inglese is still in business. A He knows
Webers
A A A like nobody
A A A A A A A else,
A A A A A A A and now he's doing EFI too.
A A A A A A A --
A A A A A A A Will
A A A A A A A A On 7/1/14 12:56 AM,
"[7][8][9]shawkins777 at comcast.net"
A A A A A A A A <[8][9][10]shawkins777 at comcast.net>
A A A A A A A A wrote:
A A A A A A >
A A A A A A > A A Are you looking for an EFI setup? A If you are I
would
A A A recommend
A A A A A A The
A A A A A A > A A ACCEl electronics. A I went thru Dennes Quella
for the
A A A manifold
A A A A A A and
A A A A A A > A A throttle bodies.
A A A A A A >
A A A A A A >
A A A A A A > A A Steve
A A A A A A > A A A
A A A A
A A A A
__________________________________________________________________
A A A A A A >
A A A A A A > A A From: "Boyd Casey"
<[9][10][11]boyd411 at gmail.com>
A A A A A A > A A To: [10][11][12]detomaso at poca.com
A A A A A A > A A Sent: Monday, June 30, 2014 11:40:27 PM
A A A A A A > A A Subject: [DeTomaso] Stack injection units
A A A A A A > A A Is there a consensus as far as which stack
injection unit
A A A is :
A A A A A A > A A 1.the best?
A A A A A A > A A 2. Best deal ?
A A A A A A > A A 3. are the units that use actual webers and
weber
A A A manifolds
A A A A A A considered
A A A A A A > A A Superior?
A A A A A A > A A 4. one to avoid?
A A A A A A > A A Any other considerations one should be aware of?
A A A A A A > A A Thanks.
A A A A A A > A A Boyd
A A A A A A > A A _______________________________________________
A A A A A A > A A Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
A A A A A A > A A DeTomaso mailing list
A A A A A A > A A [11][12][13]DeTomaso at poca.com
A A A A A A > A
A A A A
[12][13][14]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A A A A A >_______________________________________________
A A A A A >
A A A A A >Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
A A A A A >
A A A A A >DeTomaso mailing list
A A A A A A >[13][14][15]DeTomaso at poca.com
A A A A A A
>[14][15][16]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A A A A A _______________________________________________
A A A A A Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
A A A A A DeTomaso mailing list
A A A A A A [15][16][17]DeTomaso at poca.com
A A A A A A
[16][17][18]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A A A References
A A A A A A 1.
A A
A [18][19]http://www.spacecitypanteras.com/kirbyschrader/tws/tws2/ki
rbyefi
A A A .jpg
A A A A A A 2.
A A
A [19][20]http://www.spacecitypanteras.com/kirbyschrader/GT40/files/
p52600
A A A 43.jpg.jpg
A A A A A A 3. mailto:[20][21]will.kooiman at gmail.com
A A A A A A 4. [21][22]http://www.borlainduction.com/
A A A A A A 5. [22][23]http://twminduction.com/
A A A A A A 6. [23][24]http://www.twminduction.com/
A A A A A A 7. mailto:[24][25]shawkins777 at comcast.net
A A A A A A 8. mailto:[25][26]shawkins777 at comcast.net
A A A A A A 9. mailto:[26][27]boyd411 at gmail.com
A A A A A 10. mailto:[27][28]detomaso at poca.com
A A A A A 11. mailto:[28][29]DeTomaso at poca.com
A A A A A 12.
[29][30]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A A A A A 13. mailto:[30][31]DeTomaso at poca.com
A A A A A 14.
[31][32]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A A A A A 15. mailto:[32][33]DeTomaso at poca.com
A A A A A 16.
[33][34]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A A A _______________________________________________
A A A Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
A A A DeTomaso mailing list
A A A [34][35]DeTomaso at poca.com
A A A [35][36]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
References
A A 1. mailto:[37]kirby.schrader at gmail.com
A A 2.
[38]http://www.spacecitypanteras.com/kirbyschrader/tws/tws2/kirbyefi
.jpg
A A 3.
[39]http://www.spacecitypanteras.com/kirbyschrader/GT40/files/p52600
43.j
A A 4. mailto:[40]will.kooiman at gmail.com
A A 5. [41]http://www.borlainduction.com/
A A 6. [42]http://twminduction.com/
A A 7. [43]http://www.twminduction.com/
A A 8. mailto:[44]shawkins777 at comcast.net
A A 9. mailto:[45]shawkins777 at comcast.net
A 10. mailto:[46]boyd411 at gmail.com
A 11. mailto:[47]detomaso at poca.com
A 12. mailto:[48]DeTomaso at poca.com
A 13. [49]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A 14. mailto:[50]DeTomaso at poca.com
A 15. [51]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A 16. mailto:[52]DeTomaso at poca.com
A 17. [53]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A 18.
[54]http://www.spacecitypanteras.com/kirbyschrader/tws/tws2/kirbyefi
.jpg
A 19.
[55]http://www.spacecitypanteras.com/kirbyschrader/GT40/files/p52600
43.jpg.jpg
A 20. mailto:[56]will.kooiman at gmail.com
A 21. [57]http://www.borlainduction.com/
A 22. [58]http://twminduction.com/
A 23. [59]http://www.twminduction.com/
A 24. mailto:[60]shawkins777 at comcast.net
A 25. mailto:[61]shawkins777 at comcast.net
A 26. mailto:[62]boyd411 at gmail.com
A 27. mailto:[63]detomaso at poca.com
A 28. mailto:[64]DeTomaso at poca.com
A 29. [65]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A 30. mailto:[66]DeTomaso at poca.com
A 31. [67]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A 32. mailto:[68]DeTomaso at poca.com
A 33. [69]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
A 34. mailto:[70]DeTomaso at poca.com
A 35. [71]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
DeTomaso mailing list
[72]DeTomaso at poca.com
[73]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
References
1. mailto:daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com
2. mailto:kirby.schrader at gmail.com
3. http://www.spacecitypanteras.com/kirbyschrader/tws/tws2/kirb
4. http://www.spacecitypanteras.com/kirbyschrader/GT40/files/p5
5. mailto:will.kooiman at gmail.com
6. http://www.borlainduction.com/
7. http://twminduction.com/
8. http://www.twminduction.com/
9. mailto:shawkins777 at comcast.net
10. mailto:shawkins777 at comcast.net
11. mailto:boyd411 at gmail.com
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38. http://www.spacecitypanteras.com/kirbyschrader/tws/tws2/kirbyefi.jpg
39. http://www.spacecitypanteras.com/kirbyschrader/GT40/files/p5260043.j
40. mailto:will.kooiman at gmail.com
41. http://www.borlainduction.com/
42. http://twminduction.com/
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45. mailto:shawkins777 at comcast.net
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54. http://www.spacecitypanteras.com/kirbyschrader/tws/tws2/kirbyefi.jpg
55. http://www.spacecitypanteras.com/kirbyschrader/GT40/files/p5260043.jpg.jpg
56. mailto:will.kooiman at gmail.com
57. http://www.borlainduction.com/
58. http://twminduction.com/
59. http://www.twminduction.com/
60. mailto:shawkins777 at comcast.net
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72. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
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