[DeTomaso] Stack injection units
Kirby Schrader
kirby.schrader at gmail.com
Tue Jul 1 12:10:49 EDT 2014
On Tue, Jul 1, 2014 at 10:51 AM, Boyd Casey <boyd411 at gmail.com> wrote:
> My best is reliable
>
All the systems I've used or read about are reliable in terms of not
failing.
As mentioned, my F9A failed, but it was over 15 years old, so I didn't feel
too bad....
> , ease of tune
>
Some systems advertise that you just start it up and it'll 'tune itself'.
I find this hard to believe... the setup would already have to be close
just so the wideband could handle the AFR.
I keep asking for someone to demonstrate such an amazing system to me. To
date, nothing.
Car companies have a team of engineers and they test drive all over the
country to get their EFI systems tuned.
If there was a 'magic system', why buy anything else?
> , best horsepower
>
That will depend on the throttle bodies you choose, the manifold and the
injector size.
> ease of upgrading to higher capacity injectors in the event of a cam
> change or other change that would require higher lb injectors.
>
That should be easy if you use Bosch injectors. I put bigger ones in my
Pantera with the new, more HP engine and it was simply a case of pull the
old ones out and put the new ones in. Then go tune again.
> Personally I like the set ups that use modified Weber's vs Plastic
> throttle bodies
>
Plastic throttle bodies... never seen such an animal. I guess I don't get
out enough.
:-)))
> , but I don't know much about them except they are expensive and are
> supposed to improve fuel economy and will stay in tune with atmospheric
> pressure changes. Ideally I would like a system that gives performance
> comparable to Weber's but without the tuning difficulties there are
> infamous for.
>
I tuned my Pantera with the Haltech system years ago and I never touched it
again for years.
It started first time, every time and ran great.
The initial tuning is always the hardest. Having a full day on a dyno is
nice, but prohibitively expensive to me.
Getting the wide open throttle setting is easy on a dyno though.
Getting the rest of the tune working is a case of driving around in real
conditions and tweaking a little bit at a time.
I say that only because I've done two of my own and helped on another's EFI
systems.
> I would also like a setup that isn't more expensive then it needs to be.
>
If you want to go with the 'stack' setup, you'll be spending money.
Guaranteed.
The 4bbl replacement options are mucho cheaper.
FWIW,
Kirby
> On Tue, Jul 1, 2014 at 8:23 AM, Kirby Schrader <kirby.schrader at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Yep. TWM was bought out by Borla some time ago. Three years? Maybe more.
>> Gary is still there though and very helpful.
>>
>> I like the TWM throttle bodies. I have them on my Pantera and my GT40.
>> The Pantera has older style throttle bodies which were supplied in the
>> mid-90's by Quella with an old F9 Haltech EFI system.
>> http://www.spacecitypanteras.com/kirbyschrader/tws/tws2/kirbyefi.jpg
>>
>> The fuel rails are on the outside, as you can see.
>>
>> I honestly don't know if Quella still does the EFI systems. Last time I
>> talked to him he sorta' indicated he no longer does.
>> You'd have to check.
>>
>> When the ancient F9 in the Pantera let all the smoke out, I replaced it
>> with an Electromotive TEC GT.
>>
>> The GT40 has an Electromotive TEC3r.
>> http://www.spacecitypanteras.com/kirbyschrader/GT40/files/p5260043.jpg.jpg
>>
>> The fuel rails are on the inside with this setup and it looks 'cleaner',
>> I think.
>>
>> I like both TEC units. They work.
>> The TEC3r is more expensive, but has more control and inputs/outputs and
>> can do fully sequential injection on a V8.
>> The TEC GT can only do what I call 'batch fire' on a V8.
>> That old saying... you get what you pay for.
>>
>> Lots of people like the FAST system. I have no experience with it.
>> Steve Hawkins uses the Accel system and seems to like it.
>>
>> FWIW,
>> Kirby
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 1, 2014 at 6:58 AM, Will Kooiman <will.kooiman at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> The throttle bodies I like the most are made by
>>> http://www.borlainduction.com. They are obviously throttle bodies, but
>>> they look like they belong in the 60's/70's.
>>>
>>> This used to be twminduction.com. That¹s news to me though. I went to
>>> their old site, http://www.twminduction.com, and it was redirected to
>>> the
>>> borla induction website.
>>>
>>> I have seen some based on real Weber bodies with small injectors hidden
>>> inside. It's an interesting idea, but I'd probably stick with the TWM
>>> bodies.
>>>
>>> Superior depends on what is important to you. In my opinion, the biggest
>>> considerations are cost, looks, and the electronics. Some may outperform
>>> others, but I doubt that it comes without setup headaches.
>>>
>>> And finally, unless you plan on designing a lot of it yourself, I'd stick
>>> with a complete system. I normally recommend Dennis Q., but don't forget
>>> that Jim Inglese is still in business. He knows Webers like nobody else,
>>> and now he's doing EFI too.
>>> --
>>> Will
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 7/1/14 12:56 AM, "shawkins777 at comcast.net" <shawkins777 at comcast.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> >
>>> > Are you looking for an EFI setup? If you are I would recommend The
>>> > ACCEl electronics. I went thru Dennes Quella for the manifold and
>>> > throttle bodies.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Steve
>>> > __________________________________________________________________
>>> >
>>> > From: "Boyd Casey" <boyd411 at gmail.com>
>>> > To: detomaso at poca.com
>>> > Sent: Monday, June 30, 2014 11:40:27 PM
>>> > Subject: [DeTomaso] Stack injection units
>>> > Is there a consensus as far as which stack injection unit is :
>>> > 1.the best?
>>> > 2. Best deal ?
>>> > 3. are the units that use actual webers and weber manifolds
>>> considered
>>> > Superior?
>>> > 4. one to avoid?
>>> > Any other considerations one should be aware of?
>>> > Thanks.
>>> > Boyd
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>> > DeTomaso mailing list
>>> > DeTomaso at poca.com
>>> > http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>>> >_______________________________________________
>>> >
>>> >Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>> >
>>> >DeTomaso mailing list
>>> >DeTomaso at poca.com
>>> >http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>>
>>> DeTomaso mailing list
>>> DeTomaso at poca.com
>>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>>>
>>
>>
>
-------------- next part --------------
On Tue, Jul 1, 2014 at 10:51 AM, Boyd Casey <[1]boyd411 at gmail.com>
wrote:
My best A is reliable
All the systems I've used or read about are reliable in terms of not
failing.
As mentioned, my F9A failed, but it was over 15 years old, so I didn't
feel too bad....
A
, ease of tune
Some systems advertise that you just start it up and it'll 'tune
itself'.
I find this hard to believe... the setup would already have to be close
just so the wideband could handle the AFR.
I keep asking for someone to demonstrate such an amazing system to me.
To date, nothing.
Car companies have a team of engineers and they test drive all over the
country to get their EFI systems tuned.
If there was a 'magic system', why buy anything else?
A
, best horsepower
That will depend on the throttle bodies you choose, the manifold and
the injector size.
A
ease of upgrading A to higher capacity injectors in the event of a cam
change or other change that would require A higher lb injectors.
That should be easy if you use Bosch injectors. I put bigger ones in my
Pantera with the new, more HP engine and it was simply a case of pull
the old ones out and put the new ones in. Then go tune again.
A
A Personally I like the set ups that use modified Weber's vs Plastic
throttle bodies
Plastic throttle bodies... never seen such an animal. I guess I don't
get out enough.
:-)))
A
, but I don't know much about them except they are expensive and are
supposed to improve fuel economy and will stay in tune with atmospheric
A pressure changes. A Ideally I would like a system that gives
performance comparable to Weber's but without the tuning difficulties
there are infamous for.
I tuned my Pantera with the Haltech system years ago and I never
touched it again for years.
It started first time, every time and ran great.
The initial tuning is always the hardest. Having a full day on a dyno
is nice, but prohibitively expensive to me.
Getting the wide open throttle setting is easy on a dyno though.
Getting the rest of the tune working is a case of driving around in
real conditions and tweaking a little bit at a time.
I say that only because I've done two of my own and helped on another's
EFI systems.A
A
I would also like a setup that isn't more expensive then it needs to
be.
If you want to go with the 'stack' setup, you'll be spending money.
Guaranteed.A
The 4bbl replacement options are mucho cheaper.
FWIW,
Kirby
On Tue, Jul 1, 2014 at 8:23 AM, Kirby Schrader
<[2]kirby.schrader at gmail.com> wrote:
Yep. TWM was bought out by Borla some time ago. Three years? Maybe
more.
Gary is still there though and very helpful.
I like the TWM throttle bodies. I have them on my Pantera and my GT40.
The Pantera has older style throttle bodies which were supplied in the
mid-90's by Quella with an old F9 Haltech EFI system.
[3]http://www.spacecitypanteras.com/kirbyschrader/tws/tws2/kirbyefi.jpg
The fuel rails are on the outside, as you can see.
I honestly don't know if Quella still does the EFI systems. Last time I
talked to him he sorta' indicated he no longer does.
You'd have to check.
When the ancient F9 in the Pantera let all the smoke out, I replaced it
with an Electromotive TEC GT.
The GT40 has an Electromotive TEC3r.
[4]http://www.spacecitypanteras.com/kirbyschrader/GT40/files/p5260043.j
pg.jpg
The fuel rails are on the inside with this setup and it looks
'cleaner', I think.
I like both TEC units. They work.
The TEC3r is more expensive, but has more control and inputs/outputs
and can do fully sequential injection on a V8.
The TEC GT can only do what I call 'batch fire' on a V8.
That old saying... you get what you pay for.
Lots of people like the FAST system. I have no experience with it.
Steve Hawkins uses the Accel system and seems to like it.
FWIW,
Kirby
On Tue, Jul 1, 2014 at 6:58 AM, Will Kooiman
<[5]will.kooiman at gmail.com> wrote:
The throttle bodies I like the most are made by
[6]http://www.borlainduction.com. A They are obviously throttle
bodies, but
they look like they belong in the 60's/70's.
This used to be [7]twminduction.com. A ThatA^1s news to me though.
A I went to
their old site, [8]http://www.twminduction.com, and it was
redirected to the
borla induction website.
I have seen some based on real Weber bodies with small injectors
hidden
inside. A It's an interesting idea, but I'd probably stick with the
TWM
bodies.
Superior depends on what is important to you. A In my opinion, the
biggest
considerations are cost, looks, and the electronics. A Some may
outperform
others, but I doubt that it comes without setup headaches.
And finally, unless you plan on designing a lot of it yourself, I'd
stick
with a complete system. A I normally recommend Dennis Q., but don't
forget
that Jim Inglese is still in business. A He knows Webers like nobody
else,
and now he's doing EFI too.
--
Will
On 7/1/14 12:56 AM, "[9]shawkins777 at comcast.net"
<[10]shawkins777 at comcast.net>
wrote:
>
> A Are you looking for an EFI setup? A If you are I would recommend
The
> A ACCEl electronics. A I went thru Dennes Quella for the manifold
and
> A throttle bodies.
>
>
> A Steve
> A A
__________________________________________________________________
>
> A From: "Boyd Casey" <[11]boyd411 at gmail.com>
> A To: [12]detomaso at poca.com
> A Sent: Monday, June 30, 2014 11:40:27 PM
> A Subject: [DeTomaso] Stack injection units
> A Is there a consensus as far as which stack injection unit is :
> A 1.the best?
> A 2. Best deal ?
> A 3. are the units that use actual webers and weber manifolds
considered
> A Superior?
> A 4. one to avoid?
> A Any other considerations one should be aware of?
> A Thanks.
> A Boyd
> A _______________________________________________
> A Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> A DeTomaso mailing list
> A [13]DeTomaso at poca.com
> A [14]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>_______________________________________________
>
>Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>
>DeTomaso mailing list
>[15]DeTomaso at poca.com
>[16]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
DeTomaso mailing list
[17]DeTomaso at poca.com
[18]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
References
1. mailto:boyd411 at gmail.com
2. mailto:kirby.schrader at gmail.com
3. http://www.spacecitypanteras.com/kirbyschrader/tws/tws2/kirbyefi.jpg
4. http://www.spacecitypanteras.com/kirbyschrader/GT40/files/p5260043.jpg.jpg
5. mailto:will.kooiman at gmail.com
6. http://www.borlainduction.com/
7. http://twminduction.com/
8. http://www.twminduction.com/
9. mailto:shawkins777 at comcast.net
10. mailto:shawkins777 at comcast.net
11. mailto:boyd411 at gmail.com
12. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
13. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
14. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
15. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
16. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
17. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
18. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
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