[DeTomaso] Brian Hill's 410 cubic inch cast iron Cleveland on the dyno
Charles Engles
cengles at cox.net
Fri Feb 7 19:07:53 EST 2014
Dear Forum: This is an excellent example of the benefits for all of us from
the Dyno Project. Send donations to Dan this weekend. Chuck Engles
PayPal and daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com
-----Original Message-----
From: DeTomaso [mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com] On Behalf Of Daniel C
Jones
Sent: Friday, February 07, 2014 3:27 PM
To: Brian Hill
Cc: POCA list
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Brian Hill's 410 cubic inch cast iron Cleveland on
the dyno
> That is a superb write up Dan. It is really amazing the numbers you guys
were able to make happen.
Thanks. Seems like every time we go to the dyno we learn something new.
> To bad about the weather, the testing of the other heads would have made
for some wild reading.
> Additional 70hp on top of these numbers would have been something to see.
That would be exciting.
I've got an ex-Alan Kulwicki NASCAR intake I'm looking forward to trying.
It will be intereting to see how it compares to an unported intake.
Dan Jones
On Thu, Feb 6, 2014 at 10:20 PM, Brian Hill <mazdastuff at yahoo.com> wrote:
> That is a superb write up Dan. It is really amazing the numbers you
> guys were able to make happen. To bad about the weather, the testing
> of the other heads would have made for some wild reading. Additional
> 70hp on top of these numbers would have been something to see. That would
be exciting.
> Bravo!
> Brian Hill
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Daniel C Jones <daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com>
> To: POCA list <detomaso at poca.com>; Brian <mazdastuff at yahoo.com>
> Sent: Thursday, February 6, 2014 11:22 AM
> Subject: Brian Hill's 410 cubic inch cast iron Cleveland on the dyno
>
> The odometer on Brian Hill's 1971 Pantera showed 60K miles but its 351
> Cleveland was burning some oil. The history of the engine was unknown
> and Brian wanted more power anyway so it was decided to build a
> stroker Cleveland. Dis-assembly revealed the block had already been
> bored 0.030" but had a few thousandths of wear so was honed to a
> 4.040" bore. A Scat stroker kit with Probe forged dished pistons, 6"
> rods and a forged steel 4" stroke crank was used to provide 10:1
> compression and a displacement of 410 cubic inches. The distributor,
> carb, water pump, alternator were new and the McLeod flywheel had been
> recently resurfaced so those parts were re-used, along with the
> Pantera 10 quart oil pan.
>
> Most of the stroker Clevelands we've done have been with aluminum
> heads (Ford Motorsport A3 high ports, Ford Motorsport C302B high
> ports, Brodix BF300 high ports, CHI 3V and 4V, TFS 2V, etc.) but this
> one was the first in a long time that retained the 1970's era OEM cast
> iron 4V heads. The heads were rebuilt years ago with replaceable
> bronze guides and had been milled and drilled for screw-in studs and
> guide plates. Dave McLain machined the spring pockets for double
> springs, installed single groove valves, did a valve job and
> resurfaced the heads. They looked pretty good so no additional
> porting work was done. On the SuperFlow bench, they flowed:
>
> Lift Intake Exhaust
> Inch CFM CFM
> 0.025 13.90 10.90
> 0.050 33.10 26.50
> 0.100 66.40 52.20
> 0.200 140.20 97.90
> 0.300 201.20 129.90
> 0.400 251.40 152.30
> 0.500 290.90 165.50
> 0.600 313.90 172.70
> 0.700 301.70 173.30
> 0.800 303.20 174.70
>
> I used Dynomation to design the cam, starting with the simulation and
> dyno results of the 408C we did for Glen Hartog's Pantera. That
> engine also used cast iron closed chamber 4V heads but those had some
> short-side radius work and flowed a bit better (322 CFM @ 0.6").
> Compared to the dyno data from Glen's engine, the latest version of
> Dynomation was under-predicting the RPM of the HP peak so I biased my
> goal to make sure the cam would peak at 6000 RPM, providing the best
> average HP between 4000 and a 6500 RPM shift point. That works well
> for a street driven Pantera with stock gearing and still pulls strong
> at lower RPM. Rather than use the Bullet lobes we'd used in the past,
> Dave worked with Steve Demos and Mike Ingram to design a couple new
> hydraulic roller lobes. The lobes are based upon the Ford base
> circle, not the smaller Chevy base circle of the previous Bullet lobes
> we've used. The resulting Demos hydraulic roller cam was checked using
> Cam Analyzer v4.0 and proved to be very close to the requested specs:
>
> Cam # DM238HR/DM242HR, Grind 0001
> 279.3/282.8 advertised duration
> 239.6/242.6 degrees duration @ 0.050"
> 159.8/162.4 degrees duration @ 0.200"
> 0.620"/0.621" intake/exhaust lift (with 1.73:1 rocker arms)
> 109 degrees LSA
> 108 degres ICL
>
> Seat Timing
> Intake Open 28.8 BTDC
> Intake Close 70.5 ABDC
> Exhaust Close 33.8 ATDC
> Exhaust Open 69.7 BBDC
>
> 0.050" timing
> Intake Open 10.8 BTDC
> Intake Close 48.8 ABDC
> Exhaust Close 11.9 ATDC
> Exhaust Open 50.7 BBDC
>
> PBM/Morel link bar hydraulic roller lifters were used and the roller
> rockers from the original engine were retained. Previously, we had
> tested a bunch of intake manifolds on Mike Drew's 408C with CHI 4V
> aluminum heads. The best of the lot were the Edelbrock Scorpion,
> Holley Strip Dominator and a ported Blue Thunder dual plane. The
> Edelbrock Scorpion is no longer in production but I found a good used
> one so we went with it. Looking much like an Edebrock Torker, the
> Scorpion is taller with a level carb pad (nice to have in the Pantera
> which has a level mounted engine and transaxle). Dave did a lot of
> work on the entry radius of the ports in Scorpion's plenum. On the
> dyno, best power was made with a 1" open spacer and best torque was
> with a 1" HVH spacer it only dropped a few horsepower and a few lbs-ft
> of torque without a spacer. Brian supplied a Holley 750 carburetor
> (p/n 80528) which I thought might be on the small side for the stroker
> engine but watching the manifold vacuum during the pulls showed no
> significant depression so it looks like it's adequate for the 6000 RPM
> 410C. It seems snappy and idles clean. The engine liked 30 degrees
> for total timing. Brian will be using a stainless Wilkinson Pantera
> exhaust system which performed well in previous testing but the engine
> was tested with the following exhaust on the dyno:
>
> Hooker 351C Competition headers (part number HOK-6920HKR)
> 1 3/4" diameter by 27" long primaries
> 3" diameter by 8" long collector
> 12 inch long collector extensions
> 3" inlet/outlet Magnaflow mufflers
>
> Based upon the simulation results, I thought we'd hit 500 HP at 6000
> RPM but the engine really surprised us by making 560 horsepower at
> 6050 RPM and 526 lbs-ft at 4600 RPM through the dyno exhaust. Not too
> shabby for a street cam and factory iron Cleveland heads. Seems the
> big port heads really like the extra cubes. Previous testing has
> shown the 4V heads also respond to a shorter exhaust rocker ratio and
> to exhaust port stuffers (MPG Stingers). It would have been
> interesting to see if we could squeeze out a few more ponies but I
> think Brian will be pleased with the results. He kindly offered to
> let me use his engine to do back-to-back testing between his iron
> closed chamber 4V heads and a set of my Ford Motorsport aluminum high
> ports (ported C302Bs) but with the very cold weather this winter
> Dave's running a bit behind on the dyno so that testing will have to
> wait. The dyno rolls outside the shop and hooks up to an external
> water source so it needs to be above freezing weather which the latest
> forecast says won't happen in the next week. We'll pick back up with
> testing the C302B heads on my 407 Fontana engine in the spring. FWIW,
> the Dynomation simulation predicts another 70 HP for my ported C302B
> heads and intake.
>
> Dan Jones
>
>
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