[DeTomaso] Brian Hill's 410 cubic inch cast iron Cleveland on the dyno

Charles Engles cengles at cox.net
Thu Feb 6 16:41:22 EST 2014 

Dear Forum,



                  Please consider sending a contribution to Dan Jones for The Great Dyno Project.   The information and Dan's interpretation and recommendations are invaluable and are worthy of a donation to Daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com  on  PayPal.   Join me in helping Dan continue this effort.    



                                 Warmest regards,  Chuck Engles




-----Original Message-----
From: DeTomaso [mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com] On Behalf Of Daniel C Jones
Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2014 3:15 PM
To: Kirby Schrader
Cc: POCA list
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Brian Hill's 410 cubic inch cast iron Cleveland on the dyno

Please send it again when you get the chance.  Thanks, Dan

On Thu, Feb 6, 2014 at 3:00 PM, Kirby Schrader <kirby.schrader at gmail.com> wrote:
> I think I sent you the details some time ago?
> If you don't have it, I'll send it again tonight when I get home.
>
> Yes, IR EFI
>
> Sent from my iPhone5
> 🇺
>
> On Feb 6, 2014, at 14:43, Daniel C Jones <daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> I got 544 with my stock 4V iron heads (that weren't ported) and 393ci.
>>> I suppose I should qualify it further... Open GTS headers and EFI.
>>
>> Is that your independent runner EFI?  What cam did you go with?
>>
>>> Thanks for continuing this! I love these reports.
>>
>> You're welcome,
>> Dan Jones
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 6, 2014 at 11:47 AM, Kirby Schrader 
>> <kirby.schrader at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> That's good stuff, Dan.
>>> I don't feel too bad... :-)
>>>
>>> I got 544 with my stock 4V iron heads (that weren't ported) and 393ci.
>>> I suppose I should qualify it further... Open GTS headers and EFI.
>>>
>>> 17 more cubic inches and 16 more HP for Brian.
>>>
>>> Really good stuff!
>>>
>>> Thanks for continuing this! I love these reports.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Kirby
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Feb 6, 2014 at 11:22 AM, Daniel C Jones 
>>> <daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The odometer on Brian Hill's 1971 Pantera showed 60K miles but its 
>>>> 351 Cleveland was burning some oil.  The history of the engine was 
>>>> unknown and Brian wanted more power anyway so it was decided to 
>>>> build a stroker Cleveland.  Dis-assembly revealed the block had 
>>>> already been bored 0.030" but had a few thousandths of wear so was 
>>>> honed to a 4.040" bore.  A Scat stroker kit with Probe forged dished pistons, 6"
>>>> rods and a forged steel 4" stroke crank was used to provide 10:1 
>>>> compression and a displacement of 410 cubic inches.  The 
>>>> distributor, carb, water pump, alternator were new and the McLeod 
>>>> flywheel had been recently resurfaced so those parts were re-used, 
>>>> along with the Pantera 10 quart oil pan.
>>>>
>>>> Most of the stroker Clevelands we've done have been with aluminum 
>>>> heads (Ford Motorsport A3 high ports, Ford Motorsport C302B high 
>>>> ports, Brodix BF300 high ports, CHI 3V and 4V, TFS 2V,  etc.) but 
>>>> this one was the first in a long time that retained the 1970's era 
>>>> OEM cast iron 4V heads.  The heads were rebuilt years ago with 
>>>> replaceable bronze guides and had been milled and drilled for 
>>>> screw-in studs and guide plates.  Dave McLain machined the spring 
>>>> pockets for double springs, installed single groove valves, did a 
>>>> valve job and resurfaced the heads.  They looked pretty good so no 
>>>> additional porting work was done.  On the SuperFlow bench, they flowed:
>>>>
>>>> Lift    Intake  Exhaust
>>>> Inch    CFM     CFM
>>>> 0.025   13.90   10.90
>>>> 0.050   33.10   26.50
>>>> 0.100   66.40   52.20
>>>> 0.200  140.20   97.90
>>>> 0.300  201.20  129.90
>>>> 0.400  251.40  152.30
>>>> 0.500  290.90  165.50
>>>> 0.600  313.90  172.70
>>>> 0.700  301.70  173.30
>>>> 0.800  303.20  174.70
>>>>
>>>> I used Dynomation to design the cam, starting with the simulation 
>>>> and dyno results of the 408C we did for Glen Hartog's Pantera.  
>>>> That engine also used cast iron closed chamber 4V heads but those 
>>>> had some short-side radius work and flowed a bit better (322 CFM @ 0.6").
>>>> Compared to the dyno data from Glen's engine, the latest version of 
>>>> Dynomation was under-predicting the RPM of the HP peak so I biased 
>>>> my goal to make sure the cam would peak at 6000 RPM, providing the 
>>>> best average HP between 4000 and a 6500 RPM shift point.  That 
>>>> works well for a street driven Pantera with stock gearing and still 
>>>> pulls strong at lower RPM.  Rather than use the Bullet lobes we'd 
>>>> used in the past, Dave worked with Steve Demos and Mike Ingram to 
>>>> design a couple new hydraulic roller lobes.  The lobes are based 
>>>> upon the Ford base circle, not the smaller Chevy base circle of the 
>>>> previous Bullet lobes we've used. The resulting Demos hydraulic 
>>>> roller cam was checked using Cam Analyzer v4.0 and proved to be very close to the requested specs:
>>>>
>>>> Cam # DM238HR/DM242HR, Grind 0001
>>>> 279.3/282.8 advertised duration
>>>> 239.6/242.6 degrees duration @ 0.050"
>>>> 159.8/162.4 degrees duration @ 0.200"
>>>> 0.620"/0.621" intake/exhaust lift (with 1.73:1 rocker arms)
>>>> 109 degrees LSA
>>>> 108 degres ICL
>>>>
>>>> Seat Timing
>>>> Intake Open 28.8 BTDC
>>>> Intake Close 70.5 ABDC
>>>> Exhaust Close 33.8 ATDC
>>>> Exhaust Open 69.7 BBDC
>>>>
>>>> 0.050" timing
>>>> Intake Open 10.8 BTDC
>>>> Intake Close 48.8 ABDC
>>>> Exhaust Close 11.9 ATDC
>>>> Exhaust Open 50.7 BBDC
>>>>
>>>> PBM/Morel link bar hydraulic roller lifters were used and the 
>>>> roller rockers from the original engine were retained.  Previously, 
>>>> we had tested a bunch of intake manifolds on Mike Drew's 408C with 
>>>> CHI 4V aluminum heads.  The best of the lot were the Edelbrock 
>>>> Scorpion, Holley Strip Dominator and a ported Blue Thunder dual 
>>>> plane.  The Edelbrock Scorpion is no longer in production but I 
>>>> found a good used one so we went with it.  Looking much like an 
>>>> Edebrock Torker, the Scorpion is taller with a level carb pad (nice 
>>>> to have in the Pantera which has a level mounted engine and 
>>>> transaxle).  Dave did a lot of work on the entry radius of the 
>>>> ports in Scorpion's plenum.  On the dyno, best power was made with 
>>>> a 1" open spacer and best torque was with a 1" HVH spacer it only dropped a few horsepower and a few lbs-ft
>>>> of torque without a spacer.   Brian supplied a Holley 750 carburetor
>>>> (p/n 80528) which I thought might be on the small side for the 
>>>> stroker engine but watching the manifold vacuum during the pulls 
>>>> showed no significant depression so it looks like it's adequate for 
>>>> the 6000 RPM 410C.  It seems snappy and idles clean.  The engine 
>>>> liked 30 degrees for total timing.  Brian will be using a stainless 
>>>> Wilkinson Pantera exhaust system which performed well in previous 
>>>> testing but the engine was tested with the following exhaust on the dyno:
>>>>
>>>> Hooker 351C Competition headers (part number HOK-6920HKR)
>>>> 1 3/4" diameter by 27" long primaries 3" diameter by 8" long 
>>>> collector
>>>> 12 inch long collector extensions
>>>> 3" inlet/outlet Magnaflow mufflers
>>>>
>>>> Based upon the simulation results, I thought we'd hit 500 HP at 
>>>> 6000 RPM but the engine really surprised us by making 560 
>>>> horsepower at
>>>> 6050 RPM and 526 lbs-ft at 4600 RPM through the dyno exhaust.  Not 
>>>> too shabby for a street cam and factory iron Cleveland heads.  
>>>> Seems the big port heads really like the extra cubes.  Previous 
>>>> testing has shown the 4V heads also respond to a shorter exhaust 
>>>> rocker ratio and to exhaust port stuffers (MPG Stingers).  It would 
>>>> have been interesting to see if we could squeeze out a few more 
>>>> ponies but I think Brian will be pleased with the results.  He 
>>>> kindly offered to let me use his engine to do back-to-back testing 
>>>> between his iron closed chamber 4V heads and a set of my Ford 
>>>> Motorsport aluminum high ports (ported C302Bs) but with the very 
>>>> cold weather this winter Dave's running a bit behind on the dyno so 
>>>> that testing will have to wait.  The dyno rolls outside the shop 
>>>> and hooks up to an external water source so it needs to be above 
>>>> freezing weather which the latest forecast says won't happen in the 
>>>> next week.  We'll pick back up with testing the C302B heads on my 
>>>> 407 Fontana engine in the spring.  FWIW, the Dynomation simulation 
>>>> predicts another 70 HP for my ported C302B heads and intake.
>>>>
>>>> Dan Jones
>>>>
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