[DeTomaso] By-Laws (Re: POCA Election and email voting)
Bill Moore
bill at incendium.com
Sat Dec 6 17:35:40 EST 2014
My vote will be in Oklahoma City Tuesday morning. Sure hope it is counted.
Cheers,
Bill Moore
Incendium Supply
Calgary
<div>-------- Original message --------</div><div>From: Julian Kift <julian_kift at hotmail.com> </div><div>Date:2014-12-06 3:15 PM (GMT-07:00) </div><div>To: Ed Mendez <edducati at mac.com>,"Himes, Terry 397C" <terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov> </div><div>Cc: De Tomaso List <detomaso at poca.com> </div><div>Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] By-Laws (Re: POCA Election and email voting) </div><div>
</div>I was going to install an MSD ignition, but as all modern electronic methods are now banned by POCA I'll have to stick to a dual spark and points ;)
> From: edducati at mac.com
> Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2014 15:04:19 -0700
> To: terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov
> CC: detomaso at poca.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] By-Laws (Re: POCA Election and email voting)
>
> I think, if you send an email which is in fact an electronic mail and it passes within the border of the U.S. It is now legally US mail. This is a minimum of first class or better, maybe even priority if you make it so in the email as high priority, only its delivered in milliseconds.
>
> And the electronic signature makes it official.
>
> I just made that up, but makes sense to me, and will certainly spark more debate.
>
> Hahaha
>
> :-)
>
> Ed
>
> Ps. Don't kill me just just trying to make people smile.
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone 5
>
> > On Dec 6, 2014, at 12:59, Himes, Terry (397C) <terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
> >
> > I agree with both. You can add your own certified signature to the PDF. Which is what I did.
> > I filled it in with PDF edit, did the Adobe Signature and Certification. Then sent it via email.
> >
> > I don't do paper any more. It's silly. Long gone are Faxes, Transparencies and Dodo Birds. ;-))
> > (I threw out my home printer years ago. I wasn't going to pay HP another penny for ink Grrr!. ;-)
> >
> > Go electronic! The only way.
> >
> > Terry
> >
> >
> > Terry W. Himes
> > JPL Jet Propulsion Laboratory
> > InSight Sequence Team Lead
> > Rosetta/MEX Sequence Team Lead
> > Phone: (818) 393-6261
> > Cell: (818) 653-8213
> > Fax: (818) 393-3147
> > thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
> >
> > ________________________________________
> > From: DeTomaso [detomaso-bounces at poca.com] on behalf of Asa Jay Laughton [asajay at asajay.com]
> > Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2014 11:18 AM
> > To: De Tomaso List
> > Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] By-Laws (Re: POCA Election and email voting)
> >
> > I'm rather with Julian on this interpretation. It's really item L that
> > gets specific, that votes may only be on the original ballot. But the
> > latest ballot was on a PDF, ergo... it should be returned as a PDF. :)
> >
> > Was the original ballot sent in accordance with the by-laws? It was
> > included with the newsletter this year (thank you for that), but was it
> > mailed using First Class mail? Or media mail? Or bulk? I don't
> > remember and I throw away the envelope.
> >
> > Even if they were sent correctly, the only stipulation in item K is to
> > follow the return "instructions." Well, those instructions -could- be
> > to snail mail them, email them, carve them in stone and deliver by horse
> > and cart, or spit in the wind.
> >
> > It would seem, with the accidental omission on this year's ballot that
> > is now being compensated for by the pdf ballot, that official
> > instruction could be modified to accommodate emailing of the original
> > PDF ballot back to the official ballot counter. After all, if we wish
> > to try and adhere to item L, which states an official ballot needs to be
> > returned... well, the official ballot was a pdf. :)
> >
> > I think this needs one or more POCA Board members to step in and make an
> > administrative decision; preferably the President.
> >
> > I'm just sayin'
> > Asa Jay
> >
> >
> > Asa Jay Laughton, MSgt, USAFR, Retired
> > & Shelley Marie
> > Spokane, WA
> > ******************************
> > http://www.racingagainstautism.com
> > http://www.teampanteraracing.com
> > http://facebook.com/racingagainstautism
> >
> >
> >> On 12/6/2014 10:23 AM, Julian Kift wrote:
> >> All I see is in (k) is a requirement to send out ballots with a
> >> pre-printed return envelope and as to ballot return it states "if
> >> applicable, together with instructions for their return to the
> >> Election Committee and containing the date that the ballots must be
> >> postmarked and/or received to be eligible to be counted"
> >>
> >> "if applicable, together with instructions for their return" I don't
> >> have a copy of my newsletter as I'm in Canada, does it explicitly say
> >> ballots have to be returned by USPS mail in the pre-printed envelope
> >> provided in the newsletter? I can scan the envelope too if it helps
> >> your overcome your bureaucracy.
> >> "date that ballots must be postmarked and/or received to be eligible
> >> to be counted" would imply that a postmark is not necessarily
> >> required, therefore couldbe delivered by such other means as hand
> >> delivered, email etc.
> >>
> >> Julian
> >> *POCA*: *P*olitics like*O*bama; *C*onspiracies*A*bound
> >>
> >>> Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2014 09:57:05 -0800
> >>> From: asajay at asajay.com
> >>> To: detomaso at poca.com
> >>> Subject: [DeTomaso] By-Laws (Re: POCA Election and email voting)
> >>>
> >>> The POCA By-Laws are published publicly for all to see:
> >>> http://www.poca.com/index.php/club/by-laws
> >>>
> >>> Note section 4. Elections:
> >>> Subsection (e):
> >>> (e) It shall be the function of the Election Committee to contact
> >>> individuals nominated for office; to verify their availability for
> >>> office; to verify that they are members in good standing both at the
> >>> time of their nomination and, if successful, at the time of their
> >>> election; to solicit additional nominees if warranted; to prepare, mail
> >>> and receive ballots; to verify eligibility of both Regular and
> >> Associate
> >>> members for voting; to count the valid votes; and to announce the
> >>> successful candidates;
> >>>
> >>> and subsection (k) through (n):
> >>>
> >>> (k) On October 1st, ballots and pre-printed return envelopes are to be
> >>> provided to Regular members via first-class U.S. mail, with space
> >>> provided on the ballot for voting by both the Regular member and the
> >>> designated Associate member, if applicable, together with instructions
> >>> for their return to the Election Committee and containing the date that
> >>> the ballots must be postmarked and/or received to be eligible to be
> >> counted;
> >>>
> >>> (l) Voting shall be by secret written ballot and only on the original
> >>> ballot form as provided by POCA;
> >>>
> >>> (m) Only Regular and Associate members in good standing shall be
> >>> entitled to vote;
> >>>
> >>> (n) Only Associate members who are specifically designated as such by
> >>> Regular members will be entitled to vote;
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. I would agree the methods could
> >>> change now that we're in the 21st century, but it will take a change to
> >>> the by-laws, which has it's own problems.
> >>>
> >>> Asa Jay
> >>>
> >>> Asa Jay Laughton, MSgt, USAFR, Retired
> >>> & Shelley Marie
> >>> Spokane, WA
> >>> ******************************
> >>> http://www.racingagainstautism.com
> >>> http://www.teampanteraracing.com
> >>> http://facebook.com/racingagainstautism
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> On 12/6/2014 9:44 AM, Bill Moore wrote:
> >>>> People, All.
> >>>>
> >>>> Come on it is 2014, damn near 15.
> >>>>
> >>>> Just because I have a 40 year old car, it should not mean i vote bu
> >>>> snail mail.
> >>>>
> >>>> John Buckman, I thought we covered this off Thursday night.
> >>>>
> >>>> I completely agree with Julian.
> >>>>
> >>>> Cheers,
> >>>>
> >>>> Bill Moore
> >>>>
> >>>> Incendium Supply
> >>>>
> >>>> Calgary
> >>>>
> >>>> -------- Original message --------
> >>>>
> >>>> From: Julian Kift
> >>>>
> >>>> Date:2014-12-06 10:30 AM (GMT-07:00)
> >>>>
> >>>> To: cengles at cox.net,detomaso at poca.com
> >>>>
> >>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] POCA Election and email voting
> >>>>
> >>>> Chuck,
> >>>> Can you point us to where the bylaws specifically state that ballots
> >>>> have to be returned via US Mail? I see where ballots must be sent out
> >>>> via such means or as later amended within a newsletter, but no
> >>>> requirement that they have to be returned by such. This would actually
> >>>> preclude all of us outside the US that are members in good standing.
> >>>> I would sincerely hope that my PDF vote with my member number and
> >>>> signature that I emailed to you will be counted or I am afraid I shall
> >>>> be voting with my feet next time my membership comes due.
> >>>> Sincerely,
> >>>> Julian
> >>>> From: cengles at cox.net
> >>>> To: detomaso at poca.com
> >>>> Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2014 11:14:35 -0600
> >>>> Subject: [DeTomaso] POCA Election and email voting
> >>>> Dear Forum,
> >>>> The bylaws state that only mailed ballots are
> >>>> acceptable.
> >>>> At this time the bylaws do not permit email voting.
> >>>>
> >>>> Sincerely, Chuck Engles
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> >>>> DeTomaso mailing list
> >>>> DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>>> Chuck,
> >>>> Can you point us to where the bylaws specifically state that ballots
> >>>> have to be returned via US Mail? I see where ballots must be sent
> >>>> out
> >>>> via such means or as later amended within a newsletter, but no
> >>>> requirement that they have to be returned by such. This would
> >>>> actually
> >>>> preclude all of us outside the US that are members in good standing.
> >>>> I would sincerely hope that my PDF vote with my member number and
> >>>> signature that I emailed to you will be counted or I am afraid I
> >>>> shall
> >>>> be voting with my feet next time my membership comes due.
> >>>> Sincerely,
> >>>> Julian
> >>>> From: cengles at cox.net
> >>>> To: detomaso at poca.com
> >>>> Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2014 11:14:35 -0600
> >>>> Subject: [DeTomaso] POCA Election and email voting
> >>>> Dear Forum,
> >>>> The bylaws state that only mailed ballots are
> >>>> acceptable.
> >>>> At this time the bylaws do not permit email voting.
> >>>> Sincerely, Chuck Engles
> >>>> _______________________________________________ Detomaso Forum
> >>>> Managed
> >>>> by POCA DeTomaso mailing list DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> >>>> DeTomaso mailing list
> >>>> DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>
> >>>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> >>>>
> >>>> DeTomaso mailing list
> >>>> DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> -----
> >>>> No virus found in this message.
> >>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> >>>> Version: 2015.0.5577 / Virus Database: 4235/8691 - Release Date:
> >> 12/06/14
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>>
> >>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> >>>
> >>> DeTomaso mailing list
> >>> DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>
> >> No virus found in this message.
> >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
> >> Version: 2015.0.5577 / Virus Database: 4235/8691 - Release Date: 12/06/14
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> > Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> >
> > DeTomaso mailing list
> > DeTomaso at poca.com
> > http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> > Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> >
> > DeTomaso mailing list
> > DeTomaso at poca.com
> > http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at poca.com
> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
I was going to install an MSD ignition, but as all modern electronic
methods are now banned by POCA I'll have to stick to a dual spark and
points ;)
> From: edducati at mac.com
> Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2014 15:04:19 -0700
> To: terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov
> CC: detomaso at poca.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] By-Laws (Re: POCA Election and email voting)
>
> I think, if you send an email which is in fact an electronic mail and
it passes within the border of the U.S. It is now legally US mail. This
is a minimum of first class or better, maybe even priority if you make
it so in the email as high priority, only its delivered in
milliseconds.
>
> And the electronic signature makes it official.
>
> I just made that up, but makes sense to me, and will certainly spark
more debate.
>
> Hahaha
>
> :-)
>
> Ed
>
> Ps. Don't kill me just just trying to make people smile.
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone 5
>
> > On Dec 6, 2014, at 12:59, Himes, Terry (397C)
<terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
> >
> > I agree with both. You can add your own certified signature to the
PDF. Which is what I did.
> > I filled it in with PDF edit, did the Adobe Signature and
Certification. Then sent it via email.
> >
> > I don't do paper any more. It's silly. Long gone are Faxes,
Transparencies and Dodo Birds. ;-))
> > (I threw out my home printer years ago. I wasn't going to pay HP
another penny for ink Grrr!. ;-)
> >
> > Go electronic! The only way.
> >
> > Terry
> >
> >
> > Terry W. Himes
> > JPL Jet Propulsion Laboratory
> > InSight Sequence Team Lead
> > Rosetta/MEX Sequence Team Lead
> > Phone: (818) 393-6261
> > Cell: (818) 653-8213
> > Fax: (818) 393-3147
> > thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
> >
> > ________________________________________
> > From: DeTomaso [detomaso-bounces at poca.com] on behalf of Asa Jay
Laughton [asajay at asajay.com]
> > Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2014 11:18 AM
> > To: De Tomaso List
> > Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] By-Laws (Re: POCA Election and email
voting)
> >
> > I'm rather with Julian on this interpretation. It's really item L
that
> > gets specific, that votes may only be on the original ballot. But
the
> > latest ballot was on a PDF, ergo... it should be returned as a PDF.
:)
> >
> > Was the original ballot sent in accordance with the by-laws? It was
> > included with the newsletter this year (thank you for that), but
was it
> > mailed using First Class mail? Or media mail? Or bulk? I don't
> > remember and I throw away the envelope.
> >
> > Even if they were sent correctly, the only stipulation in item K is
to
> > follow the return "instructions." Well, those instructions -could-
be
> > to snail mail them, email them, carve them in stone and deliver by
horse
> > and cart, or spit in the wind.
> >
> > It would seem, with the accidental omission on this year's ballot
that
> > is now being compensated for by the pdf ballot, that official
> > instruction could be modified to accommodate emailing of the
original
> > PDF ballot back to the official ballot counter. After all, if we
wish
> > to try and adhere to item L, which states an official ballot needs
to be
> > returned... well, the official ballot was a pdf. :)
> >
> > I think this needs one or more POCA Board members to step in and
make an
> > administrative decision; preferably the President.
> >
> > I'm just sayin'
> > Asa Jay
> >
> >
> > Asa Jay Laughton, MSgt, USAFR, Retired
> > & Shelley Marie
> > Spokane, WA
> > ******************************
> > http://www.racingagainstautism.com
> > http://www.teampanteraracing.com
> > http://facebook.com/racingagainstautism
> >
> >
> >> On 12/6/2014 10:23 AM, Julian Kift wrote:
> >> All I see is in (k) is a requirement to send out ballots with a
> >> pre-printed return envelope and as to ballot return it states "if
> >> applicable, together with instructions for their return to the
> >> Election Committee and containing the date that the ballots must
be
> >> postmarked and/or received to be eligible to be counted"
> >>
> >> "if applicable, together with instructions for their return" I
don't
> >> have a copy of my newsletter as I'm in Canada, does it explicitly
say
> >> ballots have to be returned by USPS mail in the pre-printed
envelope
> >> provided in the newsletter? I can scan the envelope too if it
helps
> >> your overcome your bureaucracy.
> >> "date that ballots must be postmarked and/or received to be
eligible
> >> to be counted" would imply that a postmark is not necessarily
> >> required, therefore couldbe delivered by such other means as hand
> >> delivered, email etc.
> >>
> >> Julian
> >> *POCA*: *P*olitics like*O*bama; *C*onspiracies*A*bound
> >>
> >>> Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2014 09:57:05 -0800
> >>> From: asajay at asajay.com
> >>> To: detomaso at poca.com
> >>> Subject: [DeTomaso] By-Laws (Re: POCA Election and email voting)
> >>>
> >>> The POCA By-Laws are published publicly for all to see:
> >>> http://www.poca.com/index.php/club/by-laws
> >>>
> >>> Note section 4. Elections:
> >>> Subsection (e):
> >>> (e) It shall be the function of the Election Committee to contact
> >>> individuals nominated for office; to verify their availability
for
> >>> office; to verify that they are members in good standing both at
the
> >>> time of their nomination and, if successful, at the time of their
> >>> election; to solicit additional nominees if warranted; to
prepare, mail
> >>> and receive ballots; to verify eligibility of both Regular and
> >> Associate
> >>> members for voting; to count the valid votes; and to announce the
> >>> successful candidates;
> >>>
> >>> and subsection (k) through (n):
> >>>
> >>> (k) On October 1st, ballots and pre-printed return envelopes are
to be
> >>> provided to Regular members via first-class U.S. mail, with space
> >>> provided on the ballot for voting by both the Regular member and
the
> >>> designated Associate member, if applicable, together with
instructions
> >>> for their return to the Election Committee and containing the
date that
> >>> the ballots must be postmarked and/or received to be eligible to
be
> >> counted;
> >>>
> >>> (l) Voting shall be by secret written ballot and only on the
original
> >>> ballot form as provided by POCA;
> >>>
> >>> (m) Only Regular and Associate members in good standing shall be
> >>> entitled to vote;
> >>>
> >>> (n) Only Associate members who are specifically designated as
such by
> >>> Regular members will be entitled to vote;
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. I would agree the methods
could
> >>> change now that we're in the 21st century, but it will take a
change to
> >>> the by-laws, which has it's own problems.
> >>>
> >>> Asa Jay
> >>>
> >>> Asa Jay Laughton, MSgt, USAFR, Retired
> >>> & Shelley Marie
> >>> Spokane, WA
> >>> ******************************
> >>> http://www.racingagainstautism.com
> >>> http://www.teampanteraracing.com
> >>> http://facebook.com/racingagainstautism
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> On 12/6/2014 9:44 AM, Bill Moore wrote:
> >>>> People, All.
> >>>>
> >>>> Come on it is 2014, damn near 15.
> >>>>
> >>>> Just because I have a 40 year old car, it should not mean i vote
bu
> >>>> snail mail.
> >>>>
> >>>> John Buckman, I thought we covered this off Thursday night.
> >>>>
> >>>> I completely agree with Julian.
> >>>>
> >>>> Cheers,
> >>>>
> >>>> Bill Moore
> >>>>
> >>>> Incendium Supply
> >>>>
> >>>> Calgary
> >>>>
> >>>> -------- Original message --------
> >>>>
> >>>> From: Julian Kift
> >>>>
> >>>> Date:2014-12-06 10:30 AM (GMT-07:00)
> >>>>
> >>>> To: cengles at cox.net,detomaso at poca.com
> >>>>
> >>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] POCA Election and email voting
> >>>>
> >>>> Chuck,
> >>>> Can you point us to where the bylaws specifically state that
ballots
> >>>> have to be returned via US Mail? I see where ballots must be
sent out
> >>>> via such means or as later amended within a newsletter, but no
> >>>> requirement that they have to be returned by such. This would
actually
> >>>> preclude all of us outside the US that are members in good
standing.
> >>>> I would sincerely hope that my PDF vote with my member number
and
> >>>> signature that I emailed to you will be counted or I am afraid I
shall
> >>>> be voting with my feet next time my membership comes due.
> >>>> Sincerely,
> >>>> Julian
> >>>> From: cengles at cox.net
> >>>> To: detomaso at poca.com
> >>>> Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2014 11:14:35 -0600
> >>>> Subject: [DeTomaso] POCA Election and email voting
> >>>> Dear Forum,
> >>>> The bylaws state that only mailed ballots are
> >>>> acceptable.
> >>>> At this time the bylaws do not permit email voting.
> >>>>
> >>>> Sincerely, Chuck Engles
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> >>>> DeTomaso mailing list
> >>>> DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>>> Chuck,
> >>>> Can you point us to where the bylaws specifically state that
ballots
> >>>> have to be returned via US Mail? I see where ballots must be
sent
> >>>> out
> >>>> via such means or as later amended within a newsletter, but no
> >>>> requirement that they have to be returned by such. This would
> >>>> actually
> >>>> preclude all of us outside the US that are members in good
standing.
> >>>> I would sincerely hope that my PDF vote with my member number
and
> >>>> signature that I emailed to you will be counted or I am afraid I
> >>>> shall
> >>>> be voting with my feet next time my membership comes due.
> >>>> Sincerely,
> >>>> Julian
> >>>> From: cengles at cox.net
> >>>> To: detomaso at poca.com
> >>>> Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2014 11:14:35 -0600
> >>>> Subject: [DeTomaso] POCA Election and email voting
> >>>> Dear Forum,
> >>>> The bylaws state that only mailed ballots are
> >>>> acceptable.
> >>>> At this time the bylaws do not permit email voting.
> >>>> Sincerely, Chuck Engles
> >>>> _______________________________________________ Detomaso Forum
> >>>> Managed
> >>>> by POCA DeTomaso mailing list DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> >>>> DeTomaso mailing list
> >>>> DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>
> >>>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> >>>>
> >>>> DeTomaso mailing list
> >>>> DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> -----
> >>>> No virus found in this message.
> >>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> >>>> Version: 2015.0.5577 / Virus Database: 4235/8691 - Release Date:
> >> 12/06/14
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>>
> >>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> >>>
> >>> DeTomaso mailing list
> >>> DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>
> >> No virus found in this message.
> >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
> >> Version: 2015.0.5577 / Virus Database: 4235/8691 - Release Date:
12/06/14
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> > Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> >
> > DeTomaso mailing list
> > DeTomaso at poca.com
> > http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> > Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> >
> > DeTomaso mailing list
> > DeTomaso at poca.com
> > http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at poca.com
> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
DeTomaso mailing list
DeTomaso at poca.com
http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
-------------- next part --------------
My vote will be in Oklahoma City Tuesday morning. Sure hope it is
counted.
Cheers,
Bill Moore
Incendium Supply
Calgary
-------- Original message --------
From: Julian Kift
Date:2014-12-06 3:15 PM (GMT-07:00)
To: Ed Mendez ,"Himes, Terry 397C"
Cc: De Tomaso List
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] By-Laws (Re: POCA Election and email voting)
I was going to install an MSD ignition, but as all modern electronic
methods are now banned by POCA I'll have to stick to a dual spark and
points ;)
> From: edducati at mac.com
> Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2014 15:04:19 -0700
> To: terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov
> CC: detomaso at poca.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] By-Laws (Re: POCA Election and email
voting)
>
> I think, if you send an email which is in fact an electronic mail and
it passes within the border of the U.S. It is now legally US mail. This
is a minimum of first class or better, maybe even priority if you make
it so in the email as high priority, only its delivered in
milliseconds.
>
> And the electronic signature makes it official.
>
> I just made that up, but makes sense to me, and will certainly spark
more debate.
>
> Hahaha
>
> :-)
>
> Ed
>
> Ps. Don't kill me just just trying to make people smile.
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone 5
>
> > On Dec 6, 2014, at 12:59, Himes, Terry (397C)
<terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
> >
> > I agree with both. You can add your own certified signature to
the PDF. Which is what I did.
> > I filled it in with PDF edit, did the Adobe Signature and
Certification. Then sent it via email.
> >
> > I don't do paper any more. It's silly. Long gone are Faxes,
Transparencies and Dodo Birds. ;-))
> > (I threw out my home printer years ago. I wasn't going to pay HP
another penny for ink Grrr!. ;-)
> >
> > Go electronic! The only way.
> >
> > Terry
> >
> >
> > Terry W. Himes
> > JPL Jet Propulsion Laboratory
> > InSight Sequence Team Lead
> > Rosetta/MEX Sequence Team Lead
> > Phone: (818) 393-6261
> > Cell: (818) 653-8213
> > Fax: (818) 393-3147
> > thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
> >
> > ________________________________________
> > From: DeTomaso [detomaso-bounces at poca.com] on behalf of Asa Jay
Laughton [asajay at asajay.com]
> > Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2014 11:18 AM
> > To: De Tomaso List
> > Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] By-Laws (Re: POCA Election and email
voting)
> >
> > I'm rather with Julian on this interpretation. It's really item L
that
> > gets specific, that votes may only be on the original ballot. But
the
> > latest ballot was on a PDF, ergo... it should be returned as a
PDF. :)
> >
> > Was the original ballot sent in accordance with the by-laws? It
was
> > included with the newsletter this year (thank you for that), but
was it
> > mailed using First Class mail? Or media mail? Or bulk? I don't
> > remember and I throw away the envelope.
> >
> > Even if they were sent correctly, the only stipulation in item K is
to
> > follow the return "instructions." Well, those instructions -could-
be
> > to snail mail them, email them, carve them in stone and deliver by
horse
> > and cart, or spit in the wind.
> >
> > It would seem, with the accidental omission on this year's ballot
that
> > is now being compensated for by the pdf ballot, that official
> > instruction could be modified to accommodate emailing of the
original
> > PDF ballot back to the official ballot counter. After all, if we
wish
> > to try and adhere to item L, which states an official ballot needs
to be
> > returned... well, the official ballot was a pdf. :)
> >
> > I think this needs one or more POCA Board members to step in and
make an
> > administrative decision; preferably the President.
> >
> > I'm just sayin'
> > Asa Jay
> >
> >
> > Asa Jay Laughton, MSgt, USAFR, Retired
> > & Shelley Marie
> > Spokane, WA
> > ******************************
> > http://www.racingagainstautism.com
> > http://www.teampanteraracing.com
> > http://facebook.com/racingagainstautism
> >
> >
> >> On 12/6/2014 10:23 AM, Julian Kift wrote:
> >> All I see is in (k) is a requirement to send out ballots with a
> >> pre-printed return envelope and as to ballot return it states "if
> >> applicable, together with instructions for their return to the
> >> Election Committee and containing the date that the ballots must
be
> >> postmarked and/or received to be eligible to be counted"
> >>
> >> "if applicable, together with instructions for their return" I
don't
> >> have a copy of my newsletter as I'm in Canada, does it explicitly
say
> >> ballots have to be returned by USPS mail in the pre-printed
envelope
> >> provided in the newsletter? I can scan the envelope too if it
helps
> >> your overcome your bureaucracy.
> >> "date that ballots must be postmarked and/or received to be
eligible
> >> to be counted" would imply that a postmark is not necessarily
> >> required, therefore couldbe delivered by such other means as hand
> >> delivered, email etc.
> >>
> >> Julian
> >> *POCA*: *P*olitics like*O*bama; *C*onspiracies*A*bound
> >>
> >>> Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2014 09:57:05 -0800
> >>> From: asajay at asajay.com
> >>> To: detomaso at poca.com
> >>> Subject: [DeTomaso] By-Laws (Re: POCA Election and email voting)
> >>>
> >>> The POCA By-Laws are published publicly for all to see:
> >>> http://www.poca.com/index.php/club/by-laws
> >>>
> >>> Note section 4. Elections:
> >>> Subsection (e):
> >>> (e) It shall be the function of the Election Committee to contact
> >>> individuals nominated for office; to verify their availability
for
> >>> office; to verify that they are members in good standing both at
the
> >>> time of their nomination and, if successful, at the time of their
> >>> election; to solicit additional nominees if warranted; to
prepare, mail
> >>> and receive ballots; to verify eligibility of both Regular and
> >> Associate
> >>> members for voting; to count the valid votes; and to announce the
> >>> successful candidates;
> >>>
> >>> and subsection (k) through (n):
> >>>
> >>> (k) On October 1st, ballots and pre-printed return envelopes are
to be
> >>> provided to Regular members via first-class U.S. mail, with space
> >>> provided on the ballot for voting by both the Regular member and
the
> >>> designated Associate member, if applicable, together with
instructions
> >>> for their return to the Election Committee and containing the
date that
> >>> the ballots must be postmarked and/or received to be eligible to
be
> >> counted;
> >>>
> >>> (l) Voting shall be by secret written ballot and only on the
original
> >>> ballot form as provided by POCA;
> >>>
> >>> (m) Only Regular and Associate members in good standing shall be
> >>> entitled to vote;
> >>>
> >>> (n) Only Associate members who are specifically designated as
such by
> >>> Regular members will be entitled to vote;
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. I would agree the methods
could
> >>> change now that we're in the 21st century, but it will take a
change to
> >>> the by-laws, which has it's own problems.
> >>>
> >>> Asa Jay
> >>>
> >>> Asa Jay Laughton, MSgt, USAFR, Retired
> >>> & Shelley Marie
> >>> Spokane, WA
> >>> ******************************
> >>> http://www.racingagainstautism.com
> >>> http://www.teampanteraracing.com
> >>> http://facebook.com/racingagainstautism
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> On 12/6/2014 9:44 AM, Bill Moore wrote:
> >>>> People, All.
> >>>>
> >>>> Come on it is 2014, damn near 15.
> >>>>
> >>>> Just because I have a 40 year old car, it should not mean i vote
bu
> >>>> snail mail.
> >>>>
> >>>> John Buckman, I thought we covered this off Thursday night.
> >>>>
> >>>> I completely agree with Julian.
> >>>>
> >>>> Cheers,
> >>>>
> >>>> Bill Moore
> >>>>
> >>>> Incendium Supply
> >>>>
> >>>> Calgary
> >>>>
> >>>> -------- Original message --------
> >>>>
> >>>> From: Julian Kift
> >>>>
> >>>> Date:2014-12-06 10:30 AM (GMT-07:00)
> >>>>
> >>>> To: cengles at cox.net,detomaso at poca.com
> >>>>
> >>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] POCA Election and email voting
> >>>>
> >>>> Chuck,
> >>>> Can you point us to where the bylaws specifically state that
ballots
> >>>> have to be returned via US Mail? I see where ballots must be
sent out
> >>>> via such means or as later amended within a newsletter, but no
> >>>> requirement that they have to be returned by such. This would
actually
> >>>> preclude all of us outside the US that are members in good
standing.
> >>>> I would sincerely hope that my PDF vote with my member number
and
> >>>> signature that I emailed to you will be counted or I am afraid I
shall
> >>>> be voting with my feet next time my membership comes due.
> >>>> Sincerely,
> >>>> Julian
> >>>> From: cengles at cox.net
> >>>> To: detomaso at poca.com
> >>>> Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2014 11:14:35 -0600
> >>>> Subject: [DeTomaso] POCA Election and email voting
> >>>> Dear Forum,
> >>>> The bylaws state that only mailed ballots are
> >>>> acceptable.
> >>>> At this time the bylaws do not permit email voting.
> >>>>
> >>>> Sincerely, Chuck Engles
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> >>>> DeTomaso mailing list
> >>>> DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>>> Chuck,
> >>>> Can you point us to where the bylaws specifically state that
ballots
> >>>> have to be returned via US Mail? I see where ballots must be
sent
> >>>> out
> >>>> via such means or as later amended within a newsletter, but no
> >>>> requirement that they have to be returned by such. This would
> >>>> actually
> >>>> preclude all of us outside the US that are members in good
standing.
> >>>> I would sincerely hope that my PDF vote with my member number
and
> >>>> signature that I emailed to you will be counted or I am afraid I
> >>>> shall
> >>>> be voting with my feet next time my membership comes due.
> >>>> Sincerely,
> >>>> Julian
> >>>> From: cengles at cox.net
> >>>> To: detomaso at poca.com
> >>>> Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2014 11:14:35 -0600
> >>>> Subject: [DeTomaso] POCA Election and email voting
> >>>> Dear Forum,
> >>>> The bylaws state that only mailed ballots are
> >>>> acceptable.
> >>>> At this time the bylaws do not permit email voting.
> >>>> Sincerely, Chuck Engles
> >>>> _______________________________________________ Detomaso Forum
> >>>> Managed
> >>>> by POCA DeTomaso mailing list DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> >>>> DeTomaso mailing list
> >>>> DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>
> >>>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> >>>>
> >>>> DeTomaso mailing list
> >>>> DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> -----
> >>>> No virus found in this message.
> >>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> >>>> Version: 2015.0.5577 / Virus Database: 4235/8691 - Release Date:
> >> 12/06/14
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>>
> >>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> >>>
> >>> DeTomaso mailing list
> >>> DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>
> >> No virus found in this message.
> >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
> >> Version: 2015.0.5577 / Virus Database: 4235/8691 - Release Date:
12/06/14
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> > Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> >
> > DeTomaso mailing list
> > DeTomaso at poca.com
> > http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> > Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> >
> > DeTomaso mailing list
> > DeTomaso at poca.com
> > http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at poca.com
> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
I was going to install an MSD ignition, but as all modern electronic
methods are now banned by POCA I'll have to stick to a dual spark
and
points ;)
> From: edducati at mac.com
> Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2014 15:04:19 -0700
> To: terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov
> CC: detomaso at poca.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] By-Laws (Re: POCA Election and email
voting)
>
> I think, if you send an email which is in fact an electronic mail
and
it passes within the border of the U.S. It is now legally US mail.
This
is a minimum of first class or better, maybe even priority if you
make
it so in the email as high priority, only its delivered in
milliseconds.
>
> And the electronic signature makes it official.
>
> I just made that up, but makes sense to me, and will certainly
spark
more debate.
>
> Hahaha
>
> :-)
>
> Ed
>
> Ps. Don't kill me just just trying to make people smile.
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone 5
>
> > On Dec 6, 2014, at 12:59, Himes, Terry (397C)
<terry.himes at jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
> >
> > I agree with both. You can add your own certified signature to
the
PDF. Which is what I did.
> > I filled it in with PDF edit, did the Adobe Signature and
Certification. Then sent it via email.
> >
> > I don't do paper any more. It's silly. Long gone are Faxes,
Transparencies and Dodo Birds. ;-))
> > (I threw out my home printer years ago. I wasn't going to pay HP
another penny for ink Grrr!. ;-)
> >
> > Go electronic! The only way.
> >
> > Terry
> >
> >
> > Terry W. Himes
> > JPL Jet Propulsion Laboratory
> > InSight Sequence Team Lead
> > Rosetta/MEX Sequence Team Lead
> > Phone: (818) 393-6261
> > Cell: (818) 653-8213
> > Fax: (818) 393-3147
> > thimes at jpl.nasa.gov
> >
> > ________________________________________
> > From: DeTomaso [detomaso-bounces at poca.com] on behalf of Asa Jay
Laughton [asajay at asajay.com]
> > Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2014 11:18 AM
> > To: De Tomaso List
> > Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] By-Laws (Re: POCA Election and email
voting)
> >
> > I'm rather with Julian on this interpretation. It's really item
L
that
> > gets specific, that votes may only be on the original ballot.
But
the
> > latest ballot was on a PDF, ergo... it should be returned as a
PDF.
:)
> >
> > Was the original ballot sent in accordance with the by-laws? It
was
> > included with the newsletter this year (thank you for that), but
was it
> > mailed using First Class mail? Or media mail? Or bulk? I don't
> > remember and I throw away the envelope.
> >
> > Even if they were sent correctly, the only stipulation in item K
is
to
> > follow the return "instructions." Well, those instructions
-could-
be
> > to snail mail them, email them, carve them in stone and deliver
by
horse
> > and cart, or spit in the wind.
> >
> > It would seem, with the accidental omission on this year's
ballot
that
> > is now being compensated for by the pdf ballot, that official
> > instruction could be modified to accommodate emailing of the
original
> > PDF ballot back to the official ballot counter. After all, if we
wish
> > to try and adhere to item L, which states an official ballot
needs
to be
> > returned... well, the official ballot was a pdf. :)
> >
> > I think this needs one or more POCA Board members to step in and
make an
> > administrative decision; preferably the President.
> >
> > I'm just sayin'
> > Asa Jay
> >
> >
> > Asa Jay Laughton, MSgt, USAFR, Retired
> > & Shelley Marie
> > Spokane, WA
> > ******************************
> > http://www.racingagainstautism.com
> > http://www.teampanteraracing.com
> > http://facebook.com/racingagainstautism
> >
> >
> >> On 12/6/2014 10:23 AM, Julian Kift wrote:
> >> All I see is in (k) is a requirement to send out ballots with a
> >> pre-printed return envelope and as to ballot return it states
"if
> >> applicable, together with instructions for their return to the
> >> Election Committee and containing the date that the ballots
must
be
> >> postmarked and/or received to be eligible to be counted"
> >>
> >> "if applicable, together with instructions for their return" I
don't
> >> have a copy of my newsletter as I'm in Canada, does it
explicitly
say
> >> ballots have to be returned by USPS mail in the pre-printed
envelope
> >> provided in the newsletter? I can scan the envelope too if it
helps
> >> your overcome your bureaucracy.
> >> "date that ballots must be postmarked and/or received to be
eligible
> >> to be counted" would imply that a postmark is not necessarily
> >> required, therefore couldbe delivered by such other means as
hand
> >> delivered, email etc.
> >>
> >> Julian
> >> *POCA*: *P*olitics like*O*bama; *C*onspiracies*A*bound
> >>
> >>> Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2014 09:57:05 -0800
> >>> From: asajay at asajay.com
> >>> To: detomaso at poca.com
> >>> Subject: [DeTomaso] By-Laws (Re: POCA Election and email
voting)
> >>>
> >>> The POCA By-Laws are published publicly for all to see:
> >>> http://www.poca.com/index.php/club/by-laws
> >>>
> >>> Note section 4. Elections:
> >>> Subsection (e):
> >>> (e) It shall be the function of the Election Committee to
contact
> >>> individuals nominated for office; to verify their availability
for
> >>> office; to verify that they are members in good standing both
at
the
> >>> time of their nomination and, if successful, at the time of
their
> >>> election; to solicit additional nominees if warranted; to
prepare, mail
> >>> and receive ballots; to verify eligibility of both Regular and
> >> Associate
> >>> members for voting; to count the valid votes; and to announce
the
> >>> successful candidates;
> >>>
> >>> and subsection (k) through (n):
> >>>
> >>> (k) On October 1st, ballots and pre-printed return envelopes
are
to be
> >>> provided to Regular members via first-class U.S. mail, with
space
> >>> provided on the ballot for voting by both the Regular member
and
the
> >>> designated Associate member, if applicable, together with
instructions
> >>> for their return to the Election Committee and containing the
date that
> >>> the ballots must be postmarked and/or received to be eligible
to
be
> >> counted;
> >>>
> >>> (l) Voting shall be by secret written ballot and only on the
original
> >>> ballot form as provided by POCA;
> >>>
> >>> (m) Only Regular and Associate members in good standing shall
be
> >>> entitled to vote;
> >>>
> >>> (n) Only Associate members who are specifically designated as
such by
> >>> Regular members will be entitled to vote;
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. I would agree the methods
could
> >>> change now that we're in the 21st century, but it will take a
change to
> >>> the by-laws, which has it's own problems.
> >>>
> >>> Asa Jay
> >>>
> >>> Asa Jay Laughton, MSgt, USAFR, Retired
> >>> & Shelley Marie
> >>> Spokane, WA
> >>> ******************************
> >>> http://www.racingagainstautism.com
> >>> http://www.teampanteraracing.com
> >>> http://facebook.com/racingagainstautism
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> On 12/6/2014 9:44 AM, Bill Moore wrote:
> >>>> People, All.
> >>>>
> >>>> Come on it is 2014, damn near 15.
> >>>>
> >>>> Just because I have a 40 year old car, it should not mean i
vote
bu
> >>>> snail mail.
> >>>>
> >>>> John Buckman, I thought we covered this off Thursday night.
> >>>>
> >>>> I completely agree with Julian.
> >>>>
> >>>> Cheers,
> >>>>
> >>>> Bill Moore
> >>>>
> >>>> Incendium Supply
> >>>>
> >>>> Calgary
> >>>>
> >>>> -------- Original message --------
> >>>>
> >>>> From: Julian Kift
> >>>>
> >>>> Date:2014-12-06 10:30 AM (GMT-07:00)
> >>>>
> >>>> To: cengles at cox.net,detomaso at poca.com
> >>>>
> >>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] POCA Election and email voting
> >>>>
> >>>> Chuck,
> >>>> Can you point us to where the bylaws specifically state that
ballots
> >>>> have to be returned via US Mail? I see where ballots must be
sent out
> >>>> via such means or as later amended within a newsletter, but
no
> >>>> requirement that they have to be returned by such. This would
actually
> >>>> preclude all of us outside the US that are members in good
standing.
> >>>> I would sincerely hope that my PDF vote with my member number
and
> >>>> signature that I emailed to you will be counted or I am
afraid I
shall
> >>>> be voting with my feet next time my membership comes due.
> >>>> Sincerely,
> >>>> Julian
> >>>> From: cengles at cox.net
> >>>> To: detomaso at poca.com
> >>>> Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2014 11:14:35 -0600
> >>>> Subject: [DeTomaso] POCA Election and email voting
> >>>> Dear Forum,
> >>>> The bylaws state that only mailed ballots are
> >>>> acceptable.
> >>>> At this time the bylaws do not permit email voting.
> >>>>
> >>>> Sincerely, Chuck Engles
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> >>>> DeTomaso mailing list
> >>>> DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>>> Chuck,
> >>>> Can you point us to where the bylaws specifically state that
ballots
> >>>> have to be returned via US Mail? I see where ballots must be
sent
> >>>> out
> >>>> via such means or as later amended within a newsletter, but
no
> >>>> requirement that they have to be returned by such. This would
> >>>> actually
> >>>> preclude all of us outside the US that are members in good
standing.
> >>>> I would sincerely hope that my PDF vote with my member number
and
> >>>> signature that I emailed to you will be counted or I am
afraid I
> >>>> shall
> >>>> be voting with my feet next time my membership comes due.
> >>>> Sincerely,
> >>>> Julian
> >>>> From: cengles at cox.net
> >>>> To: detomaso at poca.com
> >>>> Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2014 11:14:35 -0600
> >>>> Subject: [DeTomaso] POCA Election and email voting
> >>>> Dear Forum,
> >>>> The bylaws state that only mailed ballots are
> >>>> acceptable.
> >>>> At this time the bylaws do not permit email voting.
> >>>> Sincerely, Chuck Engles
> >>>> _______________________________________________ Detomaso
Forum
> >>>> Managed
> >>>> by POCA DeTomaso mailing list DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> >>>> DeTomaso mailing list
> >>>> DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>
> >>>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> >>>>
> >>>> DeTomaso mailing list
> >>>> DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> -----
> >>>> No virus found in this message.
> >>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> >>>> Version: 2015.0.5577 / Virus Database: 4235/8691 - Release
Date:
> >> 12/06/14
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>>
> >>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> >>>
> >>> DeTomaso mailing list
> >>> DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >>
> >> No virus found in this message.
> >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
> >> Version: 2015.0.5577 / Virus Database: 4235/8691 - Release
Date:
12/06/14
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> > Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> >
> > DeTomaso mailing list
> > DeTomaso at poca.com
> > http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> > Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> >
> > DeTomaso mailing list
> > DeTomaso at poca.com
> > http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at poca.com
> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
DeTomaso mailing list
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