[DeTomaso] FW: Moment of (sad) truth
Dave Londry
davel at emspace.com
Wed Aug 20 22:00:30 EDT 2014
Or something weird like a pinhole in one of the bores.
Invisible and wouldn't drip until you had 30 psi on the coolant side.
(took me 6 months, 4 sets of head gaskets, one cam short a lobe
and a batch of other stuff before I finally got it to drip while I was
watching)
dave
On 20/08/2014 6:26 PM, Tony DiGiovanna wrote:
> On a Cleveland, it is possible to get coolant into the oil pan due to something as simple as a leaking gasket on the timing cover. Low probability (it has never done so for any of my engines; it's usually been a cracked cylinder or a head gasket) but worth checking before you pull the motor and rebuild. Just saying...
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DeTomaso [mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com] On Behalf Of cengles at cox.net
> Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2014 9:40 AM
> To: npdrs at maui.net
> Cc: detomaso at poca.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] FW: Moment of (sad) truth
>
> Dear Robert,
>
>
>
> I don't have the full story on your engine problem,
> but I noticed that you said that you bought CHI heads from PIM. I
> didn't think that PIM sold the actual CHI heads and I checked their web
> site. They sell "aluminum heads" of unknown brand and provenence. It
> is possible that is what you bought. I know of another PIM engine that
> was built with aluminum heads. It failed after short use and the engine teardown showed that the aluminum heads seemed to be sourced from China
> and were remarkably thin. That was the basis of that engine failure.
> It may be that you have similar faulty aluminum heads.
>
>
> Warmest regards, Chuck Engles
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 7:09 AM, Robert Stroj wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>>
>> So, I will be definitely rebuilding my engine……after first harder
>> drive (only about 30-40 min of fast street driving) my oil got FULL of
>> water; by extra height on the stick and what was missing in the water
>> tank I estimate about 2littres!
>>
>> I pushed the car a bit, but never went over 6K rpm, never overheated;
>> it seems to me as if my car was never really driven hard; it is really
>> strange with all performance parts bolted on that it would blow like
>> this on first real drive.
>>
>> Before that I installed mechanical oil pressure gauge to make sure my
>> oil pressure was good and it was fine; about 50psi cold and down to
>> about 30psi when hot on idle.
>>
>>
>> So, now I was lucky to get to know American engine specialist in
>> Munich (he was even successful in the past driving Camaro’s in German
>> DTM) who will be rebuilding the engine.
>>
>> He has build lots of Chevy’s and Ford’s but is not really a 351C
>> specialist.
>>
>>
>> First, we will need to find out where the water went; hopefully is a
>> head gasket and not a crack in a block or head…
>>
>>
>> What I will now be looking for is advise on best build spec trying to
>> use as many of components that I already got.
>>
>> Inspired on Dan Johns engines I was thinking to go ahead with SCAT 408
>> stroker kit; here I found engine with similar heads I got (I have 3V
>> version and CHI hi-rise intake):
>> http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5650045562/m/994102665
>>
>> My CHI heads ware purchased trough PIM, so I believe this is the spec:
>> http://www.pim.net/3vart1113.jpg
>> Our special heads are made of http://www.pim.net/3valumart.jpg
>> Keep the 351C platform and avoid the 351W change out. With the below
>> specifications, why bother?
>>
>>
>> We are pleased to present these awesome heads. Please review our test
>> results. They speak for themselves. You have to experience these heads
>> to realize what we have unleashed on the Pantera world.
>>
>> Test Notes:
>> Intake port volume: 213 cc's Intake valve: 2.190 Exhaust: 1.710
>> Chamber: 60 cc's. Test performed at 28 inches of H20 at 16 degrees c.
>>
>>
>>
>> Intake Lift
>>
>> %
>>
>> Range
>>
>> CFM
>>
>> HP
>>
>> Exhaust Lift
>>
>> %
>>
>> Range
>>
>> CFM
>>
>>
>> .050"
>>
>> 0
>>
>> 391
>>
>> 0.0
>>
>> 0.0
>>
>> .050"
>>
>>
>> 381
>>
>> 0.0
>>
>>
>> .100"
>>
>> 0
>>
>> 391
>>
>> 0.0
>>
>> 0.0
>>
>> .100"
>>
>> 0
>>
>> 381
>>
>> 0.0
>>
>>
>> .150"
>>
>> 0
>>
>> 391
>>
>> 0.0
>>
>> 0.0
>>
>> .150"
>>
>> 0
>>
>> 381
>>
>> 0.0
>>
>>
>> .200
>>
>> 0.382
>>
>> 391
>>
>> 149.4
>>
>> 307.7
>>
>> .200"
>>
>> 0.268
>>
>> 381
>>
>> 102.1
>>
>>
>> .250"
>>
>> 0
>>
>> 391
>>
>> 0.0
>>
>> 0.0
>>
>> .250"
>>
>> 0
>>
>> 381
>>
>> 0.0
>>
>>
>> .300"
>>
>> 0.536
>>
>> 391
>>
>> 209.6
>>
>> 431.7
>>
>> .300"
>>
>> 0.359
>>
>> 381
>>
>> 136.8
>>
>>
>> .350"
>>
>> 0
>>
>> 391
>>
>> 0.0
>>
>> 0.0
>>
>> .350"
>>
>> 0
>>
>> 381
>>
>> 0.0
>>
>>
>> .400"
>>
>> 0.658
>>
>> 391
>>
>> 257.3
>>
>> 530
>>
>> .400"
>>
>> 0.425
>>
>> 381
>>
>> 161.9
>>
>>
>> .450"
>>
>> 0.721
>>
>> 391
>>
>> 281.9
>>
>> 580.7
>>
>> .450"
>>
>> 0.462
>>
>> 381
>>
>> 176.0
>>
>>
>> .500"
>>
>> 0.763
>>
>> 391
>>
>> 298.3
>>
>> 614.6
>>
>> .500"
>>
>> 0.487
>>
>> 381
>>
>> 185.5
>>
>>
>> .550"
>>
>> 0.79
>>
>> 391
>>
>> 308.9
>>
>> 636.3
>>
>> .550"
>>
>> 0.513
>>
>> 381
>>
>> 195.5
>>
>>
>> .600"
>>
>> 0.81
>>
>> 391
>>
>> 316.7
>>
>> 652.4
>>
>> .600"
>>
>> 0.534
>>
>> 381
>>
>> 203.5
>>
>>
>> .650"
>>
>> 0.822
>>
>> 391
>>
>> 321.4
>>
>> 662.1
>>
>> .650"
>>
>> 0.562
>>
>> 381
>>
>> 214.1
>>
>>
>> .700"
>>
>> 0
>>
>> 391
>>
>> 0
>>
>> 0
>>
>> .700"
>>
>> 0.581
>>
>> 381
>>
>> 221.4
>>
>>
>>
>> Based on this info I would really appreciate any suggestions on
>> configuration and especially on cam’s that would work best.
>>
>> Seems mostly everyone is going with hydraulic roller setup and max.
>> lift around 0.50; my engine builder was skeptic about 0.50 lift
>> suspecting it would be too extreme for durability of the valve train?
>>
>>
>> Target is to get the most out of the motor between 4K and 6K and it
>> would be mostly used on the road with occasional track day; with
>> European highways it would be important to be able to sustain longer
>> high speed driving.
>>
>>
>> All the best,
>>
>>
>> Robert
>>
>>
>> From: Boyd Casey [mailto:boyd411 at gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 16,
>> 2014 9:04 AM
>> To: Robert Stroj
>> Cc: John Taphorn; detomaso at poca.com
>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] FW: Moment of (sad) truth
>>
>>
>> Robert first things first. If I we're in your shoes I would seek out
>> some professional help. A person with access to Dynomation software
>>
>> (or similar software ) can tell you approximately what kind of HP and
>> torque your engine should be producing with it's current build. Try
>> "Clevelands forever or clevelands .net you can find them on Google. By
>> entering your Cam grind your piston type, your heads , valve sizes ,
>> bore stroke etc. they can tell you what type of HP and torque you
>> should be getting. Next or maybe first you need to check that your
>> valves are adjusted properly ( since you have solid lifters, I already
>> suggested you check the compression of your cylinders to see that all
>> eight match or are close. Check the timing, check the plugs. It may be
>> something relatively simple or several things.So find out what you
>> engine should be making, then check that everything is in order. It's
>> like navigating. You have to know where you are in order to be able to
>> figure out how to get to where you want to go! Once you know what your
>> engine should do and you check all the basic systems you will have a
>> clue as to whats wrong. Or you could just take it o a good shop and
>> throw money at the problem. But I think the first step is to find out
>> what kind of build you actually have. I recently read that 90% of
>> clevelands were not built to high performance standards .
>>
>> Good Luck,
>>
>> Boyd
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 16, 2014 at 2:23 PM, Robert Stroj <npdrs at maui.net> wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>>
>> Thanks a lot for comments on the gearbox.
>>
>> Will firs start by making sure lever is centered and then and
>> trunion
>> bearing is tight, if necessary follow with checking the mentioned
>> spring.
>>
>>
>> Best, Robert
>>
>>
>> From: John Taphorn [mailto:jtaphorn at kingwoodcable.com]
>> Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2014 4:15 PM
>> To: Robert Stroj; detomaso at poca.com
>>
>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] FW: Moment of (sad) truth
>>
>>
>>
>> Regarding your ZF slipping out of third. I've rebuilt several of
>> these
>> boxes and can offer a little insight.
>> First - Check to ensure the trunion bearing is tightly in place.
>> Second - Ensure that when in neutral the shift shaft is dead center
>> north and south in the gate. If not adjust so it is centered.
>> Thirdly - Do you know if the rear plate of the ZF has been removed
>> or
>> the ZF rebuilt? On my first ZF rebuild, I improperly installed the
>> spring for the 3rd gear shifter pad. I installed it out of order
>> and
>> the spring was compromised not allowing full pressure on the
>> detent.
>> It is a small spring, yet when not properly tensioned allows the
>> third
>> gear shifter shaft to slide out of place. I encountered the same
>> problem that you are experiencing. It was easy to hold in place
>> with
>> my hand resting against the shifter in third gear.
>> It was not a difficult fix and the part is inexpensive; yet,
>> required
>> removal of the ZF and minor dis assembly of the ZF.
>> I hope it is one or two.
>> JT
>>
>> On 7/1/2014 10:05 AM, Robert Stroj wrote:
>>
>>
>> So, finally, my '71 Pantera got through all the import procedures and
>> is now
>> street legal in Europe/Germany!
>> Car is in very good shape, zero rust anywhere, suspension feels very
>> good to
>> drive (height adjustable koni set), brakes work well (wilwood
>> conversion),
>> but there is something not right with the motor.
>> Engine is a older 351C rebuild using original crankshaft and pistons.
>> Some
>> years later it was fitted with CHI 3V heads and intake system, SS
>> valves,
>> 780 Holley and GTS exhaust system.
>> When driving the cart was pulling well, but definitely was not feeling
>> as
>> 400-500HP car; this is what I was sort of expecting after talking to
>> person
>> who rebuild the engine as well as previous owner...it did not really
>> feel as
>> 300HP car...
>> I had a chance to put it on the dyno at the friend's garage and got
>> the
>> following graph (please see the attached image); this are graphs for
>> adjusted power on the flywheel after recalculating looses between
>> engine and
>> wheels.
>> What was really interesting is that he had a chance to test 2 other
>> panteras
>> recently; one was a client that had rebuilt engine using some "special
>> parts", bt I am not sure of the actual spec while the other one was
>> black
>> GR4 replica that is currently listed for sale in Germany and was built
>> by
>> Braun Motorsport:
>>
>>
>> [1]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-hist-strass
>> <http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-hist-strassenzul-neuaufbau-neuried-bei-m%C3%BCnche/159513949.html?lang=de&pageNumber=1&__lp=1&scopeId=C&sortOption.sortBy=creationTime&sortOption.sortOrder=DESCENDING&makeModelVariant1.makeId=7400&makeModelVariant1.searchInFreetext=false&makeModelVariant2.searchInFreetext=false&makeModelVariant3.searchInFreetext=false&ambitCountry=DE&negativeFeatures=EXPORT>
>> enzul-neuaufbau-neuried-bei-m%C3%BCnche/159513949.html?lang=de&pageNumber=1&
>>
>> __lp=1&scopeId=C&sortOption.sortBy=creationTime&sortOption.sortOrder=DESCEND
>>
>> ING&makeModelVariant1.makeId=7400&makeModelVariant1.searchInFreetext=false&m
>>
>> akeModelVariant2.searchInFreetext=false&makeModelVariant3.searchInFreetext=f
>> alse&ambitCountry=DE&negativeFeatures=EXPORT
>>
>> So, finally, my engine did not even reach 250HP, another rebuild
>> pantera
>> motor did just over 300HP while Braun pantera did very nice 389HP;
>> there is
>> also Ford GT40 with racing motor in there; it did 410hp but at much
>> higher
>> RPM.
>> The most impressive about the Braun car is how smooth the power curve
>> is.
>>
>> So, now I am wondering where to go from here; could it be that it is
>> as
>> simple as wrong cam choice?
>> If going to do a rebuild is there a good configuration someone could
>> suggest
>> that would use CHI3V heads and intake, as I already got those?
>>
>> As well, I had something strange happen twice with the gearbox; it got
>> out
>> of the 3rd gear by itself; would someone know if this could be due to
>> any
>> wrong linkage adjustment?
>>
>> Thanks, Robert
>>
>>
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>> References
>>
>> 1.
>> http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-hist-strass
>> 2. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>> 3. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>>
>>
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