[DeTomaso] FW: Moment of (sad) truth

Robert Stroj npdrs at maui.net
Tue Aug 19 10:22:05 EDT 2014


Hi,

I did not buy the heads myself, but it was the previous owner; I got a receipts from PIM for those heads including SS valves instaled.
They are real CHI heads (they got CHI cast into aluminum at the place where headers mount); spoke to Jerry from PIM and he confirmed that about 8 years ago they were selling CHI 3V heads; they after then got their own no-name heads. 

The problem was that I was not able to find which CHI version I got, but then, by luck, found old link on PIM page to the actual spec of 3V they sold; this is the spec I posted in the e-mail.

So, now I hope that my heads and block are fine and that it is the head gasket where water went through to the oil....

Now I would like to use this opportunity to rebuild the motor to get best performance/durability with reasonable investment.

All the best,

Robert


-----Original Message-----
From: cengles at cox.net [mailto:cengles at cox.net] 
Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2014 3:40 AM
To: npdrs at maui.net
Cc: boyd411 at gmail.com; detomaso at poca.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] FW: Moment of (sad) truth

Dear Robert,



                  I don't have the full story on your engine problem, 
but I noticed that you said that you bought CHI heads from PIM.   I 
didn't think that PIM sold the actual CHI heads and I checked their web 
site.  They sell "aluminum heads" of unknown brand and provenence.   It 
is possible that is what you bought.   I know of another PIM engine that 
was built with aluminum heads.  It failed after short use and the engine teardown showed that the aluminum heads seemed to be sourced from China 
and were remarkably thin.   That was the basis of that engine failure. 
It may be that you have similar faulty aluminum heads.


                             Warmest regards,  Chuck Engles


On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 7:09 AM, Robert Stroj wrote:

> Hi,
>
>
> So, I will be definitely rebuilding my engine……after first harder 
> drive (only about 30-40 min of fast street driving) my oil got FULL of 
> water; by extra height on the stick and what was missing in the water 
> tank I estimate about 2littres!
>
> I pushed the car a bit, but never went over 6K rpm, never overheated; 
> it seems to me as if my car was never really driven hard; it is really 
> strange with all performance parts bolted on that it would blow like 
> this on first real drive.
>
> Before that I installed mechanical oil pressure gauge to make sure my 
> oil pressure was good and it was fine; about 50psi cold and down to 
> about 30psi when hot on idle.
>
>
> So, now I was lucky to get to know American engine specialist in 
> Munich (he was even successful in the past driving Camaro’s in German 
> DTM) who will be rebuilding the engine.
>
> He has build lots of Chevy’s and Ford’s but is not really a 351C 
> specialist.
>
>
> First, we will need to find out where the water went; hopefully is a 
> head gasket and not a crack in a block or head…
>
>
> What I will now be looking for is advise on best build spec trying to 
> use as many of components that I already got.
>
> Inspired on Dan Johns engines I was thinking to go ahead with SCAT 408 
> stroker kit; here I found engine with similar heads I got (I have 3V 
> version and CHI hi-rise intake): 
> http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5650045562/m/994102665
>
> My CHI heads ware purchased trough PIM, so I believe this is the spec:
> http://www.pim.net/3vart1113.jpg
> Our special heads are made of http://www.pim.net/3valumart.jpg
> Keep the 351C platform and avoid the 351W change out. With the below 
> specifications, why bother?
>
>
> We are pleased to present these awesome heads. Please review our test 
> results. They speak for themselves. You have to experience these heads 
> to realize what we have unleashed on the Pantera world.
>
> Test Notes:
> Intake port volume: 213 cc's   Intake valve: 2.190   Exhaust: 1.710 
> Chamber: 60 cc's. Test performed at 28 inches of H20 at 16 degrees c.
>
>
>
> Intake  Lift
>
> %
>
> Range
>
> CFM
>
> HP
>
> Exhaust  Lift
>
> %
>
> Range
>
> CFM
>
>
> .050"
>
> 0
>
> 391
>
> 0.0
>
> 0.0
>
> .050"
>
>
> 381
>
> 0.0
>
>
> .100"
>
> 0
>
> 391
>
> 0.0
>
> 0.0
>
> .100"
>
> 0
>
> 381
>
> 0.0
>
>
> .150"
>
> 0
>
> 391
>
> 0.0
>
> 0.0
>
> .150"
>
> 0
>
> 381
>
> 0.0
>
>
> .200
>
> 0.382
>
> 391
>
> 149.4
>
> 307.7
>
> .200"
>
> 0.268
>
> 381
>
> 102.1
>
>
> .250"
>
> 0
>
> 391
>
> 0.0
>
> 0.0
>
> .250"
>
> 0
>
> 381
>
> 0.0
>
>
> .300"
>
> 0.536
>
> 391
>
> 209.6
>
> 431.7
>
> .300"
>
> 0.359
>
> 381
>
> 136.8
>
>
> .350"
>
> 0
>
> 391
>
> 0.0
>
> 0.0
>
> .350"
>
> 0
>
> 381
>
> 0.0
>
>
> .400"
>
> 0.658
>
> 391
>
> 257.3
>
> 530
>
> .400"
>
> 0.425
>
> 381
>
> 161.9
>
>
> .450"
>
> 0.721
>
> 391
>
> 281.9
>
> 580.7
>
> .450"
>
> 0.462
>
> 381
>
> 176.0
>
>
> .500"
>
> 0.763
>
> 391
>
> 298.3
>
> 614.6
>
> .500"
>
> 0.487
>
> 381
>
> 185.5
>
>
> .550"
>
> 0.79
>
> 391
>
> 308.9
>
> 636.3
>
> .550"
>
> 0.513
>
> 381
>
> 195.5
>
>
> .600"
>
> 0.81
>
> 391
>
> 316.7
>
> 652.4
>
> .600"
>
> 0.534
>
> 381
>
> 203.5
>
>
> .650"
>
> 0.822
>
> 391
>
> 321.4
>
> 662.1
>
> .650"
>
> 0.562
>
> 381
>
> 214.1
>
>
> .700"
>
> 0
>
> 391
>
> 0
>
> 0
>
> .700"
>
> 0.581
>
> 381
>
> 221.4
>
>
>
> Based on this info I would really appreciate any suggestions on 
> configuration and especially on cam’s that would work best.
>
> Seems mostly everyone is going with hydraulic roller setup and max. 
> lift around 0.50; my engine builder was skeptic about 0.50 lift 
> suspecting it would be too extreme for  durability of the valve train?
>
>
> Target is to get the most out of the motor between 4K and 6K and it 
> would be mostly used on the road with occasional track day; with 
> European highways it would be important to be able to sustain longer 
> high speed driving.
>
>
> All the best,
>
>
> Robert
>
>
> From: Boyd Casey [mailto:boyd411 at gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 
> 2014 9:04 AM
> To: Robert Stroj
> Cc: John Taphorn; detomaso at poca.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] FW: Moment of (sad) truth
>
>
> Robert first things first. If I we're in your shoes I would seek out 
> some professional help. A person with access to Dynomation software
>
>  (or similar software ) can tell you approximately what kind of HP and 
> torque your engine should be producing with it's current build. Try 
> "Clevelands forever or clevelands .net you can find them on Google. By 
> entering your  Cam grind your piston type, your heads , valve sizes , 
> bore stroke etc.  they can tell you what type of HP and torque you 
> should be getting.  Next or  maybe first you need to check that your 
> valves are adjusted properly ( since you have solid lifters, I already 
> suggested you check the compression of your  cylinders to see that all 
> eight match or are close. Check the timing, check the plugs. It may be 
> something relatively simple or several things.So find out what you 
> engine should be making, then check that everything is in order. It's 
> like navigating. You have to know where you are in order to be able to 
> figure out how to get to where you want to go! Once you know what your 
> engine should do and you check all the basic systems you will have a 
> clue as to whats wrong. Or you could just take it o a good shop and 
> throw money at the  problem. But I think the first step is to find out 
> what kind of build you actually have. I recently read that 90% of 
> clevelands were not built to high performance standards .
>
> Good Luck,
>
> Boyd
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 16, 2014 at 2:23 PM, Robert Stroj <npdrs at maui.net> wrote:
>
>    Hi,
>
>
>    Thanks a lot for comments on the gearbox.
>
>    Will firs start by making sure lever is centered and then and 
> trunion
>    bearing is tight, if necessary follow with checking the mentioned
>    spring.
>
>
>    Best, Robert
>
>
>    From: John Taphorn [mailto:jtaphorn at kingwoodcable.com]
>    Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2014 4:15 PM
>    To: Robert Stroj; detomaso at poca.com
>
>    Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] FW: Moment of (sad) truth
>
>
>
>    Regarding your ZF slipping out of third.  I've rebuilt several of 
> these
>    boxes and can offer a little insight.
>    First - Check to ensure the trunion bearing is tightly in place.
>    Second - Ensure that when in neutral the shift shaft is dead center
>    north and south in the gate.  If not adjust so it is centered.
>    Thirdly - Do you know if the rear plate of the ZF has been removed 
> or
>    the ZF rebuilt?  On my first ZF rebuild, I improperly installed the
>    spring for the 3rd gear shifter pad.  I installed it out of order 
> and
>    the spring was compromised not allowing full pressure on the 
> detent.
>    It is a small spring, yet when not properly tensioned allows the 
> third
>    gear shifter shaft to slide out of place.  I encountered the same
>    problem that you are experiencing.  It was easy to hold in place 
> with
>    my hand resting against the shifter in third gear.
>    It was not a difficult fix and the part is inexpensive; yet, 
> required
>    removal of the ZF and minor dis assembly of the ZF.
>    I hope it is one or two.
>    JT
>
>    On 7/1/2014 10:05 AM, Robert Stroj wrote:
>
>
> So, finally, my '71 Pantera got through all the import procedures and 
> is now
> street legal in Europe/Germany!
> Car is in very good shape, zero rust anywhere, suspension feels very 
> good to
> drive (height adjustable koni set), brakes work well (wilwood 
> conversion),
> but there is something not right with the motor.
> Engine is a older 351C rebuild using original crankshaft and pistons. 
> Some
> years later it was fitted with CHI 3V heads and intake system, SS 
> valves,
> 780 Holley and GTS exhaust system.
> When driving the cart was pulling well, but definitely was not feeling 
> as
> 400-500HP car; this is what I was sort of expecting after talking to 
> person
> who rebuild the engine as well as previous owner...it did not really 
> feel as
> 300HP car...
> I had a chance to put it on the dyno at the friend's garage and got 
> the
> following graph (please see the attached image); this are graphs for
> adjusted power on the flywheel after recalculating looses between 
> engine and
> wheels.
> What was really interesting is that he had a chance to test 2 other 
> panteras
> recently; one was a client that had rebuilt engine using some "special
> parts", bt I am not sure of the actual spec while the other one was 
> black
> GR4 replica that is currently listed for sale in Germany and was built 
> by
> Braun Motorsport:
>
> 
> [1]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-hist-strass 
> <http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-hist-strassenzul-neuaufbau-neuried-bei-m%C3%BCnche/159513949.html?lang=de&pageNumber=1&__lp=1&scopeId=C&sortOption.sortBy=creationTime&sortOption.sortOrder=DESCENDING&makeModelVariant1.makeId=7400&makeModelVariant1.searchInFreetext=false&makeModelVariant2.searchInFreetext=false&makeModelVariant3.searchInFreetext=false&ambitCountry=DE&negativeFeatures=EXPORT> 
> enzul-neuaufbau-neuried-bei-m%C3%BCnche/159513949.html?lang=de&pageNumber=1&
> 
> __lp=1&scopeId=C&sortOption.sortBy=creationTime&sortOption.sortOrder=DESCEND
> 
> ING&makeModelVariant1.makeId=7400&makeModelVariant1.searchInFreetext=false&m
> 
> akeModelVariant2.searchInFreetext=false&makeModelVariant3.searchInFreetext=f
> alse&ambitCountry=DE&negativeFeatures=EXPORT
>
> So, finally, my engine did not even reach 250HP, another rebuild 
> pantera
> motor did just over 300HP while Braun pantera did very nice 389HP; 
> there is
> also Ford GT40 with racing motor in there; it did 410hp but at much 
> higher
> RPM.
> The most impressive about the Braun car is how smooth the power curve 
> is.
>
> So, now I am wondering where to go from here; could it be that it is 
> as
> simple as wrong cam choice?
> If going to do a rebuild is there a good configuration someone could 
> suggest
> that would use CHI3V heads and intake, as I already got those?
>
> As well, I had something strange happen twice with the gearbox; it got 
> out
> of the 3rd gear by itself; would someone know if this could be due to 
> any
> wrong linkage adjustment?
>
> Thanks, Robert
>
>
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> References
>
>    1. 
> http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-hist-strass
>    2. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>    3. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
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