[DeTomaso] FW: Moment of (sad) truth
Robert Stroj
npdrs at maui.net
Tue Aug 19 08:09:47 EDT 2014
Hi,
So, I will be definitely rebuilding my engine……after first harder drive (only about 30-40 min of fast street driving) my oil got FULL of water; by extra height on the stick and what was missing in the water tank I estimate about 2littres!
I pushed the car a bit, but never went over 6K rpm, never overheated; it seems to me as if my car was never really driven hard; it is really strange with all performance parts bolted on that it would blow like this on first real drive.
Before that I installed mechanical oil pressure gauge to make sure my oil pressure was good and it was fine; about 50psi cold and down to about 30psi when hot on idle.
So, now I was lucky to get to know American engine specialist in Munich (he was even successful in the past driving Camaro’s in German DTM) who will be rebuilding the engine.
He has build lots of Chevy’s and Ford’s but is not really a 351C specialist.
First, we will need to find out where the water went; hopefully is a head gasket and not a crack in a block or head…
What I will now be looking for is advise on best build spec trying to use as many of components that I already got.
Inspired on Dan Johns engines I was thinking to go ahead with SCAT 408 stroker kit; here I found engine with similar heads I got (I have 3V version and CHI hi-rise intake): http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5650045562/m/994102665
My CHI heads ware purchased trough PIM, so I believe this is the spec:
http://www.pim.net/3vart1113.jpg
Our special heads are made of
http://www.pim.net/3valumart.jpg
Keep the 351C platform and avoid the 351W change out.
With the below specifications, why bother?
We are pleased to present these awesome heads. Please review our test results. They speak for themselves. You have to experience these heads to realize what we have unleashed on the Pantera world.
Test Notes:
Intake port volume: 213 cc's Intake valve: 2.190 Exhaust: 1.710
Chamber: 60 cc's. Test performed at 28 inches of H20 at 16 degrees c.
Intake Lift
%
Range
CFM
HP
Exhaust Lift
%
Range
CFM
.050"
0
391
0.0
0.0
.050"
381
0.0
.100"
0
391
0.0
0.0
.100"
0
381
0.0
.150"
0
391
0.0
0.0
.150"
0
381
0.0
.200
0.382
391
149.4
307.7
.200"
0.268
381
102.1
.250"
0
391
0.0
0.0
.250"
0
381
0.0
.300"
0.536
391
209.6
431.7
.300"
0.359
381
136.8
.350"
0
391
0.0
0.0
.350"
0
381
0.0
.400"
0.658
391
257.3
530
.400"
0.425
381
161.9
.450"
0.721
391
281.9
580.7
.450"
0.462
381
176.0
.500"
0.763
391
298.3
614.6
.500"
0.487
381
185.5
.550"
0.79
391
308.9
636.3
.550"
0.513
381
195.5
.600"
0.81
391
316.7
652.4
.600"
0.534
381
203.5
.650"
0.822
391
321.4
662.1
.650"
0.562
381
214.1
.700"
0
391
0
0
.700"
0.581
381
221.4
Based on this info I would really appreciate any suggestions on configuration and especially on cam’s that would work best.
Seems mostly everyone is going with hydraulic roller setup and max. lift around 0.50; my engine builder was skeptic about 0.50 lift suspecting it would be too extreme for durability of the valve train?
Target is to get the most out of the motor between 4K and 6K and it would be mostly used on the road with occasional track day; with European highways it would be important to be able to sustain longer high speed driving.
All the best,
Robert
From: Boyd Casey [mailto:boyd411 at gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2014 9:04 AM
To: Robert Stroj
Cc: John Taphorn; detomaso at poca.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] FW: Moment of (sad) truth
Robert first things first. If I we're in your shoes I would seek out some professional help. A person with access to Dynomation software
(or similar software ) can tell you approximately what kind of HP and torque your engine should be producing with it's current build. Try "Clevelands forever or clevelands .net you can find them on Google. By entering your Cam grind your piston type, your heads , valve sizes , bore stroke etc. they can tell you what type of HP and torque you should be getting. Next or maybe first you need to check that your valves are adjusted properly ( since you have solid lifters, I already suggested you check the compression of your cylinders to see that all eight match or are close. Check the timing, check the plugs. It may be something relatively simple or several things.So find out what you engine should be making, then check that everything is in order. It's like navigating. You have to know where you are in order to be able to figure out how to get to where you want to go! Once you know what your engine should do and you check all the basic systems you will have a clue as to whats wrong. Or you could just take it o a good shop and throw money at the problem. But I think the first step is to find out what kind of build you actually have. I recently read that 90% of clevelands were not built to high performance standards .
Good Luck,
Boyd
On Wed, Jul 16, 2014 at 2:23 PM, Robert Stroj <npdrs at maui.net> wrote:
Hi,
Thanks a lot for comments on the gearbox.
Will firs start by making sure lever is centered and then and trunion
bearing is tight, if necessary follow with checking the mentioned
spring.
Best, Robert
From: John Taphorn [mailto:jtaphorn at kingwoodcable.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2014 4:15 PM
To: Robert Stroj; detomaso at poca.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] FW: Moment of (sad) truth
Regarding your ZF slipping out of third. I've rebuilt several of these
boxes and can offer a little insight.
First - Check to ensure the trunion bearing is tightly in place.
Second - Ensure that when in neutral the shift shaft is dead center
north and south in the gate. If not adjust so it is centered.
Thirdly - Do you know if the rear plate of the ZF has been removed or
the ZF rebuilt? On my first ZF rebuild, I improperly installed the
spring for the 3rd gear shifter pad. I installed it out of order and
the spring was compromised not allowing full pressure on the detent.
It is a small spring, yet when not properly tensioned allows the third
gear shifter shaft to slide out of place. I encountered the same
problem that you are experiencing. It was easy to hold in place with
my hand resting against the shifter in third gear.
It was not a difficult fix and the part is inexpensive; yet, required
removal of the ZF and minor dis assembly of the ZF.
I hope it is one or two.
JT
On 7/1/2014 10:05 AM, Robert Stroj wrote:
So, finally, my '71 Pantera got through all the import procedures and is now
street legal in Europe/Germany!
Car is in very good shape, zero rust anywhere, suspension feels very good to
drive (height adjustable koni set), brakes work well (wilwood conversion),
but there is something not right with the motor.
Engine is a older 351C rebuild using original crankshaft and pistons. Some
years later it was fitted with CHI 3V heads and intake system, SS valves,
780 Holley and GTS exhaust system.
When driving the cart was pulling well, but definitely was not feeling as
400-500HP car; this is what I was sort of expecting after talking to person
who rebuild the engine as well as previous owner...it did not really feel as
300HP car...
I had a chance to put it on the dyno at the friend's garage and got the
following graph (please see the attached image); this are graphs for
adjusted power on the flywheel after recalculating looses between engine and
wheels.
What was really interesting is that he had a chance to test 2 other panteras
recently; one was a client that had rebuilt engine using some "special
parts", bt I am not sure of the actual spec while the other one was black
GR4 replica that is currently listed for sale in Germany and was built by
Braun Motorsport:
[1]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-hist-strass <http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-hist-strassenzul-neuaufbau-neuried-bei-m%C3%BCnche/159513949.html?lang=de&pageNumber=1&__lp=1&scopeId=C&sortOption.sortBy=creationTime&sortOption.sortOrder=DESCENDING&makeModelVariant1.makeId=7400&makeModelVariant1.searchInFreetext=false&makeModelVariant2.searchInFreetext=false&makeModelVariant3.searchInFreetext=false&ambitCountry=DE&negativeFeatures=EXPORT>
enzul-neuaufbau-neuried-bei-m%C3%BCnche/159513949.html?lang=de&pageNumber=1&
__lp=1&scopeId=C&sortOption.sortBy=creationTime&sortOption.sortOrder=DESCEND
ING&makeModelVariant1.makeId=7400&makeModelVariant1.searchInFreetext=false&m
akeModelVariant2.searchInFreetext=false&makeModelVariant3.searchInFreetext=f
alse&ambitCountry=DE&negativeFeatures=EXPORT
So, finally, my engine did not even reach 250HP, another rebuild pantera
motor did just over 300HP while Braun pantera did very nice 389HP; there is
also Ford GT40 with racing motor in there; it did 410hp but at much higher
RPM.
The most impressive about the Braun car is how smooth the power curve is.
So, now I am wondering where to go from here; could it be that it is as
simple as wrong cam choice?
If going to do a rebuild is there a good configuration someone could suggest
that would use CHI3V heads and intake, as I already got those?
As well, I had something strange happen twice with the gearbox; it got out
of the 3rd gear by itself; would someone know if this could be due to any
wrong linkage adjustment?
Thanks, Robert
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
DeTomaso mailing list
[2]DeTomaso at poca.com
[3]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
References
1. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-hist-strass
2. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
3. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
DeTomaso mailing list
DeTomaso at poca.com
http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
-------------- next part --------------
Hi,
So, I will be definitely rebuilding my engine......after first harder
drive (only about 30-40 min of fast street driving) my oil got FULL of
water; by extra height on the stick and what was missing in the water
tank I estimate about 2littres!
I pushed the car a bit, but never went over 6K rpm, never overheated;
it seems to me as if my car was never really driven hard; it is really
strange with all performance parts bolted on that it would blow like
this on first real drive.
Before that I installed mechanical oil pressure gauge to make sure my
oil pressure was good and it was fine; about 50psi cold and down to
about 30psi when hot on idle.
So, now I was lucky to get to know American engine specialist in Munich
(he was even successful in the past driving Camaro's in German DTM) who
will be rebuilding the engine.
He has build lots of Chevy's and Ford's but is not really a 351C
specialist.
First, we will need to find out where the water went; hopefully is a
head gasket and not a crack in a block or head...
What I will now be looking for is advise on best build spec trying to
use as many of components that I already got.
Inspired on Dan Johns engines I was thinking to go ahead with SCAT 408
stroker kit; here I found engine with similar heads I got (I have 3V
version and CHI hi-rise intake):
[1]http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5650045562/m/994102665
My CHI heads ware purchased trough PIM, so I believe this is the spec:
http://www.pim.net/3vart1113.jpg
Our special heads are made of
http://www.pim.net/3valumart.jpg
Keep the 351C platform and avoid the 351W change out.
With the below specifications, why bother?
We are pleased to present these awesome heads. Please review our test
results. They speak for themselves. You have to experience these heads
to realize what we have unleashed on the Pantera world.
Test Notes:
Intake port volume: 213 cc's Intake valve: 2.190 Exhaust: 1.710
Chamber: 60 cc's. Test performed at 28 inches of H20 at 16 degrees c.
Intake Lift
%
Range
CFM
HP
Exhaust Lift
%
Range
CFM
.050"
0
391
0.0
0.0
.050"
381
0.0
.100"
0
391
0.0
0.0
.100"
0
381
0.0
.150"
0
391
0.0
0.0
.150"
0
381
0.0
.200
0.382
391
149.4
307.7
.200"
0.268
381
102.1
.250"
0
391
0.0
0.0
.250"
0
381
0.0
.300"
0.536
391
209.6
431.7
.300"
0.359
381
136.8
.350"
0
391
0.0
0.0
.350"
0
381
0.0
.400"
0.658
391
257.3
530
.400"
0.425
381
161.9
.450"
0.721
391
281.9
580.7
.450"
0.462
381
176.0
.500"
0.763
391
298.3
614.6
.500"
0.487
381
185.5
.550"
0.79
391
308.9
636.3
.550"
0.513
381
195.5
.600"
0.81
391
316.7
652.4
.600"
0.534
381
203.5
.650"
0.822
391
321.4
662.1
.650"
0.562
381
214.1
.700"
0
391
0
0
.700"
0.581
381
221.4
Based on this info I would really appreciate any suggestions on
configuration and especially on cam's that would work best.
Seems mostly everyone is going with hydraulic roller setup and max.
lift around 0.50; my engine builder was skeptic about 0.50 lift
suspecting it would be too extreme for durability of the valve train?
Target is to get the most out of the motor between 4K and 6K and it
would be mostly used on the road with occasional track day; with
European highways it would be important to be able to sustain longer
high speed driving.
All the best,
Robert
From: Boyd Casey [mailto:boyd411 at gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2014 9:04 AM
To: Robert Stroj
Cc: John Taphorn; detomaso at poca.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] FW: Moment of (sad) truth
Robert first things first. If I we're in your shoes I would seek out
some professional help. A person with access to Dynomation software
(or similar software ) can tell you approximately what kind of HP and
torque your engine should be producing with it's current build. Try
"Clevelands forever or clevelands .net you can find them on Google. By
entering your Cam grind your piston type, your heads , valve sizes ,
bore stroke etc. they can tell you what type of HP and torque you
should be getting. Next or maybe first you need to check that your
valves are adjusted properly ( since you have solid lifters, I already
suggested you check the compression of your cylinders to see that all
eight match or are close. Check the timing, check the plugs. It may be
something relatively simple or several things.So find out what you
engine should be making, then check that everything is in order. It's
like navigating. You have to know where you are in order to be able to
figure out how to get to where you want to go! Once you know what your
engine should do and you check all the basic systems you will have a
clue as to whats wrong. Or you could just take it o a good shop and
throw money at the problem. But I think the first step is to find out
what kind of build you actually have. I recently read that 90% of
clevelands were not built to high performance standards .
Good Luck,
Boyd
On Wed, Jul 16, 2014 at 2:23 PM, Robert Stroj <[2]npdrs at maui.net>
wrote:
Hi,
Thanks a lot for comments on the gearbox.
Will firs start by making sure lever is centered and then and
trunion
bearing is tight, if necessary follow with checking the mentioned
spring.
Best, Robert
From: John Taphorn [mailto:[3]jtaphorn at kingwoodcable.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2014 4:15 PM
To: Robert Stroj; [4]detomaso at poca.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] FW: Moment of (sad) truth
Regarding your ZF slipping out of third. I've rebuilt several of
these
boxes and can offer a little insight.
First - Check to ensure the trunion bearing is tightly in place.
Second - Ensure that when in neutral the shift shaft is dead center
north and south in the gate. If not adjust so it is centered.
Thirdly - Do you know if the rear plate of the ZF has been removed
or
the ZF rebuilt? On my first ZF rebuild, I improperly installed the
spring for the 3rd gear shifter pad. I installed it out of order
and
the spring was compromised not allowing full pressure on the detent.
It is a small spring, yet when not properly tensioned allows the
third
gear shifter shaft to slide out of place. I encountered the same
problem that you are experiencing. It was easy to hold in place
with
my hand resting against the shifter in third gear.
It was not a difficult fix and the part is inexpensive; yet,
required
removal of the ZF and minor dis assembly of the ZF.
I hope it is one or two.
JT
On 7/1/2014 10:05 AM, Robert Stroj wrote:
So, finally, my '71 Pantera got through all the import procedures and
is now
street legal in Europe/Germany!
Car is in very good shape, zero rust anywhere, suspension feels very
good to
drive (height adjustable koni set), brakes work well (wilwood
conversion),
but there is something not right with the motor.
Engine is a older 351C rebuild using original crankshaft and pistons.
Some
years later it was fitted with CHI 3V heads and intake system, SS
valves,
780 Holley and GTS exhaust system.
When driving the cart was pulling well, but definitely was not feeling
as
400-500HP car; this is what I was sort of expecting after talking to
person
who rebuild the engine as well as previous owner...it did not really
feel as
300HP car...
I had a chance to put it on the dyno at the friend's garage and got the
following graph (please see the attached image); this are graphs for
adjusted power on the flywheel after recalculating looses between
engine and
wheels.
What was really interesting is that he had a chance to test 2 other
panteras
recently; one was a client that had rebuilt engine using some "special
parts", bt I am not sure of the actual spec while the other one was
black
GR4 replica that is currently listed for sale in Germany and was built
by
Braun Motorsport:
[1][5]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-
hist-strass
enzul-neuaufbau-neuried-bei-m%C3%BCnche/159513949.html?lang=de&pageNumb
er=1&
__lp=1&scopeId=C&sortOption.sortBy=creationTime&sortOption.sortOrder=DE
SCEND
ING&makeModelVariant1.makeId=7400&makeModelVariant1.searchInFreetext=fa
lse&m
akeModelVariant2.searchInFreetext=false&makeModelVariant3.searchInFreet
ext=f
alse&ambitCountry=DE&negativeFeatures=EXPORT
So, finally, my engine did not even reach 250HP, another rebuild
pantera
motor did just over 300HP while Braun pantera did very nice 389HP;
there is
also Ford GT40 with racing motor in there; it did 410hp but at much
higher
RPM.
The most impressive about the Braun car is how smooth the power curve
is.
So, now I am wondering where to go from here; could it be that it is as
simple as wrong cam choice?
If going to do a rebuild is there a good configuration someone could
suggest
that would use CHI3V heads and intake, as I already got those?
As well, I had something strange happen twice with the gearbox; it got
out
of the 3rd gear by itself; would someone know if this could be due to
any
wrong linkage adjustment?
Thanks, Robert
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
DeTomaso mailing list
[2][6]DeTomaso at poca.com
[3][7]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
References
1.
[8]http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-his
t-strass
2. mailto:[9]DeTomaso at poca.com
3. [10]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
_______________________________________________
Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
DeTomaso mailing list
[11]DeTomaso at poca.com
[12]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
References
1. http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5650045562/m/994102665
2. mailto:npdrs at maui.net
3. mailto:jtaphorn at kingwoodcable.com
4. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
5. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-hist-strassenzul-neuaufbau-neuried-bei-m%C3%BCnche/159513949.html?lang=de&pageNumber=1&__lp=1&scopeId=C&sortOption.sortBy=creationTime&sortOption.sortOrder=DESCENDING&makeModelVariant1.makeId=7400&makeModelVariant1.searchInFreetext=false&makeModelVariant2.searchInFreetext=false&makeModelVariant3.searchInFreetext=false&ambitCountry=DE&negativeFeatures=EXPORT
6. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
7. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
8. http://suchen.mobile.de/auto-inserat/detomaso-pantera-gruppe-4-m-hist-strass
9. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
10. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
11. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
12. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
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