[DeTomaso] ZF gear oil--another question
Pantdino
pantdino at aol.com
Sat Apr 12 22:25:43 EDT 2014
I think it depends on how you use the car and where you live
I live in S California in a warm, dry area and think every 5 years is fine with synthetic oil since the car isn't driven very often. (But when it is it is driven until fully warmed up.)
I do brake fluid every year and coolant every 2 but the transaxle oil can go longer where I live.
But 25K miles would be time to change for sure.
Jim
-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Drew <MikeLDrew at aol.com>
To: Christopher Kimball <chrisvkimball at msn.com>
Cc: thomas <thomas at hax.se>; Pantdino <pantdino at aol.com>; Pantera list serve <detomaso at poca.com>
Sent: Sat, Apr 12, 2014 7:12 pm
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] ZF gear oil--another question
Lloyd and other vendors recommend changing every two years. You are long
overdue!
Mike
Sent from my iPhone
On Apr 12, 2014, at 16:09, Christopher Kimball <chrisvkimball at msn.com> wrote:
> So with all this talk about ZF gear oil, let me ask a questions:
> I have put about 25,000 miles on my ZF--the vast majority freeway miles
> (to Fun Rallies in Phoenix, Reno, etc.)--following safety-wiring and
> inspection. Am I OK in terms of gear oil, or is it time to change it?
> Thanks,
> Chris
> From: thomas at hax.se
> Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 00:33:08 +0200
> To: pantdino at aol.com
> CC: detomaso at poca.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] ZF gear oil
>
>
>> 12 apr 2014 kl. 19:12 skrev Pantdino <pantdino at aol.com>:
>>
>> Thomas,
>>
>> "And there is no "yellow metal" in our ZF:s, right?"
>>
>> I think that is not correct. "Yellow metal" refers to brass, which is what
sy
> nchros are made of or at least what they were made of back in the day.
>
> I believe the synchros are all steel in the ZF.
>
>>
>> I read somewhere that GL5 oils coat the metal better than GL4s, but the
proble
> m is that the coating is so adherent that when it comes off it can tear off a
fe
> w molecules of the metal. Over time this can result in gear wear.
>>
>> My Abarth guru recommends Red Line MT-90 for my Fiat transaxle. It is a
75W90
> GL4 oil that is recommended for gearboxes and FRONT-WHEEL DRIVE transaxles but
> not rear wheel drive diffs.
>>
>> Unfortunately I don't know enough about transaxles to know why GL4 oil is
best
> for a Fiat transaxle but wouldn't be good for a ZF or Ferrari unit. Or maybe
i
> t would be??
>>
>> Jim Oddie
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Thomas Tornblom <thomas at hax.se>
>> To: detomaso <detomaso at poca.com>
>> Sent: Fri, Apr 11, 2014 11:44 pm
>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] ZF gear oil
>>
>> Pantdino skrev 2014-04-12 08:14:
>>> I think Mike misspoke / miswrote
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Most gear oil is GL5 and it is GL4 that is hard to find
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> But the best oil for the ZF is Red Line 75W90NS--- the NS signifying
>>> "not so slippery" I presume.
>>>
>>> ANY oil that says it is OK to use in a limited slip diff will be TOO
>>> slippery for proper synchro function and will predispose to early
>>> synchro wear.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> GL4 oil is better for "yellow metal" gears but this is a fairly minor
>>> consideration in comparison to better lubrication for the diff portion
>>> of the ZF provided by the GL5 Red Line 75W90NS
>>
>> And there is no "yellow metal" in our ZF:s, right? So GL5 would be
>> appropriate, just as the owners manual says.
>>
>> That said, I have always used Shell Getriebeoel, which is a fully
>> synthetic GL4, but will now switch to some GL5. Might even try this RL
>> oil. :)
>>
>> Thomas
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> At least this was the conclusion reached by the ferrarichat group for
>>> use in "brand F" transaxles.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Jim Oddie
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Corey Price <coreyjprice at gmail.com>
>>> To: MikeLDrew <MikeLDrew at aol.com>
>>> Cc: De Tomaso List <detomaso at poca.com>
>>> Sent: Fri, Apr 11, 2014 9:03 pm
>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] ZF gear oil
>>> Mike,
>>>
>>> I thought GL-4 was the recommended oil, per Lloyd's website "FAQ" section.
>> Did
>>> I miss something?
>>>
>>> Corey
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Apr 11, 2014, at 9:41 PM, [1]MikeLDrew at aol.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>> In a message dated 4/11/14 12 32 13, [2]cwhamm at frontier.com writes:
>>>>
>>>> Also what is the best gear oil for
>>>> my ZF transaxle?
>>>>
>>>>>>> This is a very important question. I think there is a tendancy
>>>> among many people to just grab any old gear oil and throw it in there,
>>>> but the nature of a transaxle demands that one pays very close
>>>> attention to the manufacturer's recommendations. All gear oils are NOT
>>>> created equal!
>>>> In this case, the first thing to do is RTFM.
>>>> The manual specifically calls for SAE 80, AP GL5
>>>> (SAE 90 in Europe).
>>>> 7 1/2 pints of the stuff.
>>>> While it is very easy to find SAE 80-90 gear oil, it is surprisingly
>>>> difficult to find *GL5* gear oil, and that's the important part. GL5
>>>> oil has specific characteristics designed to work with the types of
>>>> synchros that our gearboxes have, which are different from most other
>>>> gearboxes, and definitely different from a typical differential/rear
>>>> axle.
>>>> If you go to most auto parts stores, there will be lots of gear oil on
>>>> the shelf but none of it will be GL5. The only place I have reliably
>>>> found GL5 is NAPA auto parts; it is made by Sta-Lube/CRC.
>>>> Here is the exact link to what you should buy:
>>>> [3][1]http://www.crcindustries.com/ei/product_detail.aspx?id=SL2473
>>>> It is normally sold in pints or gallons; since you need 7.5 pints and
>>>> there are 8 pints in a gallon, obviously it is to your advantage to buy
>>>> a gallon jug. My local NAPA store used to carry them, but I just had
>>>> to order a jug a couple of weeks ago as they only have pints now.
>>>> While you're at it, you might as well buy a gear oil pump, also by
>>>> Sta-Lube:
>>>> [4][2]http://www.crcindustries.com/ei/product_detail.aspx?id=SL4344
>>>> Harbor Freight has a better picture of it:
>>>> [5][3]http://www.harborfreight.com/sta-lube-gear-fluid-oil-pump-40714.ht
> ml
>>>> Using this pump has transformed my life. Normally filling a ZF gearbox
>>>> is a painful experience involving a lot of spilled gear oil and
>>>> profanity. This turns it into a breeze. Just put the end of the hose
>>>> in the side of the gearbox (where it's cleverly retained), and start
>>>> pumping until you feel silly. When oil starts drooling out the side,
>>>> you're done. Let it sit for a few minutes, give a few more pumps just
>>>> to be sure, then you're really done.
>>>> Mike (going to change my gearbox oil tomorrow as a matter of fact....)
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>
>>>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>>>
>>>> DeTomaso mailing list
>>>> [6]DeTomaso at poca.com
>>>> [7][4]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>>
>>> DeTomaso mailing list
>>> [8]DeTomaso at poca.com
>>> [9][5]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>>>
>>> References
>>>
>>> 1. mailto:MikeLDrew at aol.com
>>> 2. mailto:cwhamm at frontier.com
>>> 3. [6]http://www.crcindustries.com/ei/product_detail.aspx?id=SL2473
>>> 4. [7]http://www.crcindustries.com/ei/product_detail.aspx?id=SL4344
>>> 5. [8]http://www.harborfreight.com/sta-lube-gear-fluid-oil-pump-40714.ht
> ml
>>> 6. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>>> 7. [9]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>>> 8. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>>> 9. [10]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>>
>>> DeTomaso mailing list
>>> DeTomaso at poca.com
>>> [11]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>>>
>>>
>>> !DSPAM:5348d9dc3863307228636!
>>
>>
>> --
>> Real life: Thomas Toernblom Email: thomas at hax.se
>> Snail mail: Banvallsvaegen 14 Phone: +46 18 32 31 18
>> S - 754 40 Uppsala, Sweden Cellular: +46 76 209 8320
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>
>> DeTomaso mailing list
>> DeTomaso at poca.com
>> [12]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> !DSPAM:5349742617366153625052!
>
> _______________________________________________ Detomaso Forum Managed
> by POCA DeTomaso mailing list DeTomaso at poca.com
> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>
> References
>
> 1. http://www.crcindustries.com/ei/product_detail.aspx?id=SL2473
> 2. http://www.crcindustries.com/ei/product_detail.aspx?id=SL4344
> 3. http://www.harborfreight.com/sta-lube-gear-fluid-oil-pump-40714.html
> 4. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 5. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 6. http://www.crcindustries.com/ei/product_detail.aspx?id=SL2473
> 7. http://www.crcindustries.com/ei/product_detail.aspx?id=SL4344
> 8. http://www.harborfreight.com/sta-lube-gear-fluid-oil-pump-40714.html
> 9. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 10. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 11. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 12. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> _______________________________________________
>
> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at poca.com
> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
-------------- next part --------------
I think it depends on how you use the car and where you live
I live in S California in a warm, dry area and think every 5 years is
fine with synthetic oil since the car isn't driven very often. (But
when it is it is driven until fully warmed up.)
I do brake fluid every year and coolant every 2 but the transaxle oil
can go longer where I live.
But 25K miles would be time to change for sure.
Jim
-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Drew <MikeLDrew at aol.com>
To: Christopher Kimball <chrisvkimball at msn.com>
Cc: thomas <thomas at hax.se>; Pantdino <pantdino at aol.com>; Pantera list
serve <detomaso at poca.com>
Sent: Sat, Apr 12, 2014 7:12 pm
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] ZF gear oil--another question
Lloyd and other vendors recommend changing every two years. You are long
overdue!
Mike
Sent from my iPhone
On Apr 12, 2014, at 16:09, Christopher Kimball <[1]chrisvkimball at msn.com> wrote:
> So with all this talk about ZF gear oil, let me ask a questions:
> I have put about 25,000 miles on my ZF--the vast majority freeway miles
> (to Fun Rallies in Phoenix, Reno, etc.)--following safety-wiring and
> inspection. Am I OK in terms of gear oil, or is it time to change it?
> Thanks,
> Chris
> From: [2]thomas at hax.se
> Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 00:33:08 +0200
> To: [3]pantdino at aol.com
> CC: [4]detomaso at poca.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] ZF gear oil
>
>
>> 12 apr 2014 kl. 19:12 skrev Pantdino <[5]pantdino at aol.com>:
>>
>> Thomas,
>>
>> "And there is no "yellow metal" in our ZF:s, right?"
>>
>> I think that is not correct. "Yellow metal" refers to brass, which is what
sy
> nchros are made of or at least what they were made of back in the day.
>
> I believe the synchros are all steel in the ZF.
>
>>
>> I read somewhere that GL5 oils coat the metal better than GL4s, but the
proble
> m is that the coating is so adherent that when it comes off it can tear off a
fe
> w molecules of the metal. Over time this can result in gear wear.
>>
>> My Abarth guru recommends Red Line MT-90 for my Fiat transaxle. It is a
75W90
> GL4 oil that is recommended for gearboxes and FRONT-WHEEL DRIVE transaxles but
> not rear wheel drive diffs.
>>
>> Unfortunately I don't know enough about transaxles to know why GL4 oil is
best
> for a Fiat transaxle but wouldn't be good for a ZF or Ferrari unit. Or maybe
i
> t would be??
>>
>> Jim Oddie
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Thomas Tornblom <[6]thomas at hax.se>
>> To: detomaso <[7]detomaso at poca.com>
>> Sent: Fri, Apr 11, 2014 11:44 pm
>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] ZF gear oil
>>
>> Pantdino skrev 2014-04-12 08:14:
>>> I think Mike misspoke / miswrote
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Most gear oil is GL5 and it is GL4 that is hard to find
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> But the best oil for the ZF is Red Line 75W90NS--- the NS signifying
>>> "not so slippery" I presume.
>>>
>>> ANY oil that says it is OK to use in a limited slip diff will be TOO
>>> slippery for proper synchro function and will predispose to early
>>> synchro wear.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> GL4 oil is better for "yellow metal" gears but this is a fairly minor
>>> consideration in comparison to better lubrication for the diff portion
>>> of the ZF provided by the GL5 Red Line 75W90NS
>>
>> And there is no "yellow metal" in our ZF:s, right? So GL5 would be
>> appropriate, just as the owners manual says.
>>
>> That said, I have always used Shell Getriebeoel, which is a fully
>> synthetic GL4, but will now switch to some GL5. Might even try this RL
>> oil. :)
>>
>> Thomas
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> At least this was the conclusion reached by the ferrarichat group for
>>> use in "brand F" transaxles.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Jim Oddie
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Corey Price <[8]coreyjprice at gmail.com>
>>> To: MikeLDrew <[9]MikeLDrew at aol.com>
>>> Cc: De Tomaso List <[10]detomaso at poca.com>
>>> Sent: Fri, Apr 11, 2014 9:03 pm
>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] ZF gear oil
>>> Mike,
>>>
>>> I thought GL-4 was the recommended oil, per Lloyd's website "FAQ" section.
>> Did
>>> I miss something?
>>>
>>> Corey
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Apr 11, 2014, at 9:41 PM, [1][11]MikeLDrew at aol.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>> In a message dated 4/11/14 12 32 13, [2][12]cwhamm at frontier.com writes:
>>>>
>>>> Also what is the best gear oil for
>>>> my ZF transaxle?
>>>>
>>>>>>> This is a very important question. I think there is a tendancy
>>>> among many people to just grab any old gear oil and throw it in there,
>>>> but the nature of a transaxle demands that one pays very close
>>>> attention to the manufacturer's recommendations. All gear oils are NOT
>>>> created equal!
>>>> In this case, the first thing to do is RTFM.
>>>> The manual specifically calls for SAE 80, AP GL5
>>>> (SAE 90 in Europe).
>>>> 7 1/2 pints of the stuff.
>>>> While it is very easy to find SAE 80-90 gear oil, it is surprisingly
>>>> difficult to find *GL5* gear oil, and that's the important part. GL5
>>>> oil has specific characteristics designed to work with the types of
>>>> synchros that our gearboxes have, which are different from most other
>>>> gearboxes, and definitely different from a typical differential/rear
>>>> axle.
>>>> If you go to most auto parts stores, there will be lots of gear oil on
>>>> the shelf but none of it will be GL5. The only place I have reliably
>>>> found GL5 is NAPA auto parts; it is made by Sta-Lube/CRC.
>>>> Here is the exact link to what you should buy:
>>>> [3][1][13]http://www.crcindustries.com/ei/product_detail.aspx?id=SL2473
>>>> It is normally sold in pints or gallons; since you need 7.5 pints and
>>>> there are 8 pints in a gallon, obviously it is to your advantage to buy
>>>> a gallon jug. My local NAPA store used to carry them, but I just had
>>>> to order a jug a couple of weeks ago as they only have pints now.
>>>> While you're at it, you might as well buy a gear oil pump, also by
>>>> Sta-Lube:
>>>> [4][2][14]http://www.crcindustries.com/ei/product_detail.aspx?id=SL4344
>>>> Harbor Freight has a better picture of it:
>>>> [5][3][15]http://www.harborfreight.com/sta-lube-gear-fluid-oil-pump-40714
.ht
> ml
>>>> Using this pump has transformed my life. Normally filling a ZF gearbox
>>>> is a painful experience involving a lot of spilled gear oil and
>>>> profanity. This turns it into a breeze. Just put the end of the hose
>>>> in the side of the gearbox (where it's cleverly retained), and start
>>>> pumping until you feel silly. When oil starts drooling out the side,
>>>> you're done. Let it sit for a few minutes, give a few more pumps just
>>>> to be sure, then you're really done.
>>>> Mike (going to change my gearbox oil tomorrow as a matter of fact....)
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>
>>>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>>>
>>>> DeTomaso mailing list
>>>> [6][16]DeTomaso at poca.com
>>>> [7][4][17]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>>
>>> DeTomaso mailing list
>>> [8][18]DeTomaso at poca.com
>>> [9][5][19]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>>>
>>> References
>>>
>>> 1. [20]mailto:MikeLDrew at aol.com
>>> 2. [21]mailto:cwhamm at frontier.com
>>> 3. [6][22]http://www.crcindustries.com/ei/product_detail.aspx?id=SL2473
>>> 4. [7][23]http://www.crcindustries.com/ei/product_detail.aspx?id=SL4344
>>> 5. [8][24]http://www.harborfreight.com/sta-lube-gear-fluid-oil-pump-40714
.ht
> ml
>>> 6. [25]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>>> 7. [9][26]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>>> 8. [27]mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
>>> 9. [10][28]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>>
>>> DeTomaso mailing list
>>> [29]DeTomaso at poca.com
>>> [11][30]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>>>
>>>
>>> !DSPAM:5348d9dc3863307228636!
>>
>>
>> --
>> Real life: Thomas Toernblom Email: [31]thomas at hax.se
>> Snail mail: Banvallsvaegen 14 Phone: +46 18 32 31 18
>> S - 754 40 Uppsala, Sweden Cellular: +46 76 209 8320
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>
>> DeTomaso mailing list
>> [32]DeTomaso at poca.com
>> [12][33]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>> !DSPAM:5349742617366153625052!
>
> _______________________________________________ Detomaso Forum Managed
> by POCA DeTomaso mailing list [34]DeTomaso at poca.com
> [35]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
>
> References
>
> 1. [36]http://www.crcindustries.com/ei/product_detail.aspx?id=SL2473
> 2. [37]http://www.crcindustries.com/ei/product_detail.aspx?id=SL4344
> 3. [38]http://www.harborfreight.com/sta-lube-gear-fluid-oil-pump-40714.html
> 4. [39]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 5. [40]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 6. [41]http://www.crcindustries.com/ei/product_detail.aspx?id=SL2473
> 7. [42]http://www.crcindustries.com/ei/product_detail.aspx?id=SL4344
> 8. [43]http://www.harborfreight.com/sta-lube-gear-fluid-oil-pump-40714.html
> 9. [44]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 10. [45]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 11. [46]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> 12. [47]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
> _______________________________________________
>
> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>
> DeTomaso mailing list
> [48]DeTomaso at poca.com
> [49]http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
References
1. mailto:chrisvkimball at msn.com
2. mailto:thomas at hax.se
3. mailto:pantdino at aol.com
4. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
5. mailto:pantdino at aol.com
6. mailto:thomas at hax.se
7. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
8. mailto:coreyjprice at gmail.com
9. mailto:MikeLDrew at aol.com
10. mailto:detomaso at poca.com
11. mailto:MikeLDrew at aol.com
12. mailto:cwhamm at frontier.com
13. http://www.crcindustries.com/ei/product_detail.aspx?id=SL2473
14. http://www.crcindustries.com/ei/product_detail.aspx?id=SL4344
15. http://www.harborfreight.com/sta-lube-gear-fluid-oil-pump-40714.ht
16. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
17. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
18. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
19. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
20. mailto:MikeLDrew at aol.com?
21. mailto:cwhamm at frontier.com?
22. http://www.crcindustries.com/ei/product_detail.aspx?id=SL2473
23. http://www.crcindustries.com/ei/product_detail.aspx?id=SL4344
24. http://www.harborfreight.com/sta-lube-gear-fluid-oil-pump-40714.ht
25. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com?
26. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
27. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com?
28. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
29. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
30. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
31. mailto:thomas at hax.se
32. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
33. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
34. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
35. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
36. http://www.crcindustries.com/ei/product_detail.aspx?id=SL2473
37. http://www.crcindustries.com/ei/product_detail.aspx?id=SL4344
38. http://www.harborfreight.com/sta-lube-gear-fluid-oil-pump-40714.html
39. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
40. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
41. http://www.crcindustries.com/ei/product_detail.aspx?id=SL2473
42. http://www.crcindustries.com/ei/product_detail.aspx?id=SL4344
43. http://www.harborfreight.com/sta-lube-gear-fluid-oil-pump-40714.html
44. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
45. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
46. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
47. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
48. mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com
49. http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com
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