[DeTomaso] starter electrical system problem

[thomas]

The old 351c starter technically does not have a (separate) solenoid. It is using the magnetic field of the stator to move the gear so that it meshes with the flywheel gear.

Personally I refer to the thing on the firewall as a "starter relay". To me a solenoid does mechanical work, like the solenoid on non-Ford (or modern Ford) starters, where it moves the gear. It so happens that it also doubles as a relay that connects power to the starter motor after the gears have meshed up properly.

Thomas

> 22 sep 2013 kl. 22:39 skrev Boyd Casey <boyd411 at gmail.com>:
> 
> The device on the fire wall is a solenoid. The device on the starter is also a solenoid. Technically the starter solenoid no longer has a Bendix drive. You will have to google "Bendix drive" to see what the difference is. The solenoid is an electromechanical switch ( as is a relay) a solenoid is a little more heavy duty . A modern PMGR starter no longer uses a Bendix gear.With the variety of starters now being used  you really need to know what kind of starter and starter system you have in order to know what our car has. There have been a variety of mechanisms used over the years to engage your starter to your flywheel . If you have the time it is actually an interesting subject to study.
> Boyd
> 
> 
>> On Sun, Sep 22, 2013 at 3:57 PM, thomas <thomas at hax.se> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> 22 sep 2013 kl. 21:01 skrev MikeLDrew at aol.com:
>>> 
>> 
>>> 
>>> In a message dated 9/22/13 11 29 57, pantdino at aol.com writes:
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> Ok, for my education:
>>>>  
>>>> Two things have to happen when you engage a starter motor:
>>>>  
>>>> 1) the starter motor gear has to be engaged in the teeth of the flywheel
>>>> 2) the starter motor has to turn
>>>>  
>>>> AFAIK the starter motor is not engaged all the time with the flywheel.
>>>> So what are you calling the thing that moves the starter motor gear out 
>>>> to engage the flywheel if its not a solenoid?
>>> 
>>>>>> That's the Bendix drive.   That's what I told you is shot in your
>>> starter.
>>> 
>>> The thing that moves the gear in and out is an inertial, NOT an electrical 
>>> device.   When the starter motor starts spinning, inertia propels the gear 
>>> out to engage the ring gear on the flywheel.   When the engine starts, the 
>>> flywheel basically ejects the starter gear back into the starter.
>> 
>> I don't think the stock 351c starter is of this type. It uses the stator coil to attract a "pole shoe" inside the bulge that moves the gear to engage the flywheel gear. And it also completes the circuit so that the starter starts spinning.
>> 
>> Check:
>> http://randysrepairshop.net/ford-1960s---1990s-operation.html
>> 
>> Thomas
>>> 
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bendix_drive
>>> 
>>> What is happening with your starter (I'm guessing from 400 miles away) is 
>>> that the Bendix drive has crapped out.   You turn the key, your perfect 
>>> solenoid does its job perfectly, sends power down to the starter, which starts 
>>> spinning merrily.   The Bendix drive does nothing because it's done broke, and 
>>> the gear just spins around and around, making the sound you're hearing.
>>> 
>>> While it's possible to have a starter rebuilt and repaired, when you 
>>> consider the low cost and higher starting torque of a modern aftermarket starter 
>>> (complete with built-in solenoid), and the lower weight, and the MUCH easier 
>>> servicing (you'll have to remove the header to get a stock starter out, I 
>>> would imagine, while the small ones are much easier to get in and out), it 
>>> makes no sense to do anything but replace it.
>>> 
>>> That is, assuming my long-distance diagnosis is correct.   It is incredibly 
>>> easy to determine it in person.   Have somebody turn the key while you have 
>>> your head near the starter (you can see it from above climbing into the 
>>> trunk).   If the solenoid closes and the starter makes noise, the problem is 
>>> not the solenoid.   If there is nothing coming from the starter and tortured 
>>> sounds from the firewall, then the problem is the solenoid.
>>> 
>>> Cheers!
>>> 
>>> Mike
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