[DeTomaso] 5,639 Panteras 71-74 ??

Tue Nov 5 16:39:05 EST 2013

I can speak for the Sunbeam records.  A number of years ago a fellow named
Norm Miller did ALL the research, and I mean ALL!!!  He got all the records
and included EVERYTHING in the "Book of Norm".  This book is considered the
bible of Sunbeam Tigers detailing production numbers, options, years the
options were available and what car number they started with, etc..  It was
a tremendous effort that can only be accomplished by someone with an
incredible passion for detail.  His books originally sold for a very
reasonable price however it was a limited run.  He has since added an
appendix with some additional information.  I have been told that he lost
the original computer files when his computer crashed (or some type of
tragedy) and he has not reprinted a copy since.  His book routinely sell for
in the neighborhood of $1,000 per copy.  I have even seen them go for
upwards of $1,500 each.  I know others have approached him to create a
digital copy but I'm not sure where that stands.  I have heard it for many
years so I'm guessing they have been turned down.

Norm is keeper of our registry and is considered by most to be the final
answer regarding all things Tiger.  Most Tiger owners have spoken with him
at one time or another and he is VERY helpful identifying their cars.  I
know he spent about an hour with me on the phone telling me where to find id
tags etc to confirm my Tiger is a real tiger and not an Alger (Alpine
converted to a Tiger).  He is one of the nicest and most helpful guys I have
met in any of the clubs.  BTW mine was built in October of 1966 and licensed
in 1967 so it is registered as a 1967 even though a 1967 MK1A was never
produced.  All 1967s were the MK 2.

The amount of work he must have put into the book is unbelievable.  I know
it was not a money maker for him.  The high selling price are resells, not
original copies from him.  He hasn't had any for decades.

The following was related to me via email another example of enthusiasts
going "above and beyond" for their marque: Recently a group of Tiger owners
went to the Rootes Archive in Banbury as well as Graham Vickery (who happens
to be an Archive Trustee). They all spent a week working there with James
Spencer, Archive Secretary.  Banbury is about 25 miles crow flying miles
from Gloucester. (The Museum of Transportation is in Coventry.)

The Archive houses a half million Rootes engineering drawings as well as
thousands of other documents. About half the collection is on microfiche and
the other half paper. The Archive has digital scanners for both. It does not
sound as though the RS Corsoe has these capabilities.  They used the
scanners to make digital duplicates of the drawings in an attempt to
preserve the information for future generations. They also donated a
document scanner and went through the files and cleaned up the filing. (In
doing so they located a trove of "lost" Tiger drawings. It was nice to see
their efforts dramatically rewarded.) 

Since that original trip others have offered and returned to help with
additional scanning.  I don't know where they are in the process but it will
take a while to complete I'm sure.

As others have said it can be done but it will take A LOT of effort and
motivation other than money.

Lynn

From: DeTomaso [mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com] On Behalf Of Gray Gregory
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2013 12:30 PM
To: michael at michaelshortt.com
Cc: detomaso at poca.com; shawkins777 at comcast.net
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 5,639 Panteras 71-74 ??

I guarantee you they went through dusty old records to figure out how many
Lambos and Sunbeams etc. there are out there. Now GTO's are a completely
different matter as GM likely had much more sophisticated record keeping and
Shelby, who knows? If Shelby was responsible I'm sure they too were just
paper records in a file cabinet. If Ford was responsible obviously they
would be on par with GM. 

As far as someone going to all the effort to do it; obviously it will
require someone motivated by more than just a desire to please curious
Pantera owners.

Gray

From: michael at michaelshortt.com [mailto:michaelsavga at gmail.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2013 12:14 PM
To: Gray Gregory
Cc: shawkins777 at comcast.net; detomaso at poca.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 5,639 Panteras 71-74 ??

What he didn't mention was that he went there (to Italy) and find his info.

6,000 people aren't going to do that, or have the resources or supplied
resources as well as the time.

If I had the information, I would post it, I can not think of a better sales
or recruitment tool for a certificate business or registry than

to be able to state that you have THE unequivocal list of XXXX cars. Can
place each and every car in time and space

and verify that your car is #XXXX out of XXXX of which XXXX remain.

Of course that would imply some business acumen and marketing ability.

We group buy brakes, lights, wheels, etc.   Why not Birth Certificates, 

I'll step up and offer a reasonable fee ( equal to a Mustang Marti report ),
but as a part of that, I want to know

how many there were in total, year by year, model by model.

and I dispute that somebody had to go through dusty old records to know how
many GTOs, Countachs, Tigers or Cobras were built.

I'd say that their manufacturers kept  records in a normal manner ( no steno
pads ).

And as we discussed on the 72 Pushbutton,  ( built in 71 and titled in 72 )
, everybody knows that left over 69 Shelby's were 70 Shelbys, etc.

and that some, if not a great many 74 L's were built in 1973.

This information doesn't make them any less of a car, in fact, given the
improvements between the first 300 pushbutton cars and the

72 pushbutton that came over 2,000 cars later, I'd rather have the later
one, you can't possibly think that the only thing left unchanged were the
doors.

Michael

On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 12:39 PM, Gray Gregory <rgg at gregorycook.com> wrote:

Exactly! As Mike has pointed out the same factory records exist for DeTomaso
as with the other marques you mention. There's no state secrets here it's
just that nobody has put forth the effort to compile them into one easily
accessible place. The Shelby info you quoted is a perfect example. Those
numbers didn't magically appear. Someone did a lot of digging through old
paper records to compile all that info and tally it into total cars produced
and then break that number down into the various sub totals you listed.

Maybe someday someone will be so motivated to do that with the DeTomaso
records?

Gray  

From: DeTomaso [mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com] On Behalf Of
shawkins777 at comcast.net
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2013 8:45 AM
Cc: detomaso at poca.com

Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 5,639 Panteras 71-74 ??

I would guess it's because no one has wanted to know bad enough to do the
research.

Steve

  _____  

From: "michael at michaelshortt.com" <michaelsavga at gmail.com>
To: "Mike Drew" <MikeLDrew at aol.com>, detomaso at poca.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 5, 2013 6:14:50 AM
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 5,639 Panteras 71-74 ??

Why are you so angry?

Unless of course it was a pushbutton 1972 pre-L.
(Out of sequence serial number, built one year, side aside and titled the
next year 1,600 cars later)

Or one of TWO known cars in the 8,000 series of numbers which may mean that
998 serials numbers were skipped.

Or unless it was a two pod dash 73.

Or one with a flat deck lid.

Or a 2000 series chassis built in 1973.

Or built by Amerisport, etc.

So if all of this is known, why is it some sort of state secret?

Exactly how many Panteras were built in total and if possible by year and or
model?

I think a lot of us would like to have a definitive answer and not be told
to go look it up because the respodent also does not know. Like asking my
Mom for help with Trig homework.

You know, like 39 Ferrari GTOs, 

Lamborghini Countach
2,042

Sunbeam Tigers - 7,083

Shelby Cobras
Leaf Spring Cobras:260 ci engine Street Cars - 62
260 ci engine Factory Works racers - 4
260 ci engine Factory-prepared racers - 1
260 ci engine Independently-prepared racers - 7
260 ci engine Dragonsnake - 1
Total 260 ci engine production - 75 
289 ci engine Street Cars - 453
289 ci engine Factory Works racers:-Standard Competition - 2-
Sebring race cars - 3-LeMans race cars - 2-LeMans replica racers - 3-
427 Prototype Flip-Top - 1-
289 FIA cars - 5-Daytona Coupes - 
6-USSRC Roadsters - 6
Total 289 ci Works race cars - 28
289 ci engine Factory-prepared competition cars:-Standard Competition -
2-LeMans prototype - 1-LeMans replicas - 3-
USRRC roadsters - 5
Total Factory prepared competition cars - 11
289 ci engine Independently prepared competition cars - 21
289 ci engine Dragonsnakes - 4
289 ci engine bare chassis for Mercer Cobra - 1
289 ci engine Willment Racing Coupe - 1
289 ci engine COB/COX Street Cars - 59
289 ci engine COB/COX Race Cars - 2
Total 289 ci engine Cobra - 580
Total Leaf Spring Cobra 260 & 289 cars - 655
Coil Spring Cobras:
427 Street Cars - 260
427 Prototype Competition Roadsters - 2 
427 Production Competition Roadsters - 19 
427 Semi-Competition Roadsters (S/C) - 31
427 Daytona Super Coupe - 1
427 Chassis only - 3
289 COB/COX Cars - 27
(427 Paramount Film Cars - 5, have been removed from the original Cobra
totals)
Total Coil Spring Cobra - 343 
GRAND TOTAL Leaf and Coil spring cars - 998

Michael

On Nov 5, 2013 2:20 AM, <MikeLDrew at aol.com> wrote:

In a message dated 11/4/13 18 51 10, michaelsavga at gmail.com writes:

Not when almost all other marques have lists that are date, time, color,
option specific with a signature of the final quality check foreman.
It would be nice to know and not speculate which is all that any of us can
do at present.

>>>According to Ford records, my car was one of 2,131 Panteras produced for
Ford during 1972.  I assume that's the 1972 model (not calendar) year.  It
was one of 445 produced in July, one of 558 cars painted yellow in 1972, and
one of 123 that were ordered from the same DSO.  It was released for sale on
3/15/1973, serialized on 3/30/73 (whatever that means) and sold for the
first time on 8/7/73 by Merriam Motors in Wallingford, CT.

It actually entered the USA in Baltimore, on a ship named Mare-By-Sea,
having been shipped from Italy on August 5th, 1972.  

This kind of data is available for every single Pantera sold by Ford in the
USA simply by ordering a Marti report.  Although the data is normally
VIN-specific, simply by getting one report for each model year, additive
numbers can be established to show the total number of Panteras imported
(probably not counting the pre-production prototypes etc. used for
crash-testing and federal certification, although I know the VINS of those
cars because I have the testing reports).  In fact, by getting Marti reports
for a car of each color, from each year, it would be very easy to know
exactly how many cars (both by year, and for all four years) were produced
in each color, etc.  All you'd have to do is ask them for the information. 

And as I said before, all the records are available for the non-US-market
and post-Ford cars from De Tomaso in Modena.  While they don't have any
statistical information, they have everything you would want to know (to
include very specific information on the various modified engines that many
cars were equipped with) for each individual car.  Invoices, correspondence,
engine build data sheets, etc...it's all there.  I've seen them with my own
eyes.

Don't speculate that records don't exist just because you haven't attempted
to access them, and journalists have been too lazy to do so....

Mike

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Michael L. Shortt
Savannah, Georgia
www.michaelshortt.com
michael at michaelshortt.com
912-232-9390

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