[DeTomaso] 5,639 Panteras 71-74 ??

Tue Nov 5 14:29:37 EST 2013

I guarantee you they went through dusty old records to figure out how many Lambos and Sunbeams etc. there are out there. Now GTO's are a completely different matter as GM likely had much more sophisticated record keeping and Shelby, who knows? If Shelby was responsible I'm sure they too were just paper records in a file cabinet. If Ford was responsible obviously they would be on par with GM.

As far as someone going to all the effort to do it; obviously it will require someone motivated by more than just a desire to please curious Pantera owners.

Gray

From: michael at michaelshortt.com [mailto:michaelsavga at gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2013 12:14 PM
To: Gray Gregory
Cc: shawkins777 at comcast.net; detomaso at poca.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 5,639 Panteras 71-74 ??

What he didn't mention was that he went there (to Italy) and find his info.

6,000 people aren't going to do that, or have the resources or supplied resources as well as the time.

If I had the information, I would post it, I can not think of a better sales or recruitment tool for a certificate business or registry than
to be able to state that you have THE unequivocal list of XXXX cars. Can place each and every car in time and space
and verify that your car is #XXXX out of XXXX of which XXXX remain.

Of course that would imply some business acumen and marketing ability.

We group buy brakes, lights, wheels, etc.   Why not Birth Certificates,

I'll step up and offer a reasonable fee ( equal to a Mustang Marti report ), but as a part of that, I want to know
how many there were in total, year by year, model by model.

and I dispute that somebody had to go through dusty old records to know how many GTOs, Countachs, Tigers or Cobras were built.
I'd say that their manufacturers kept  records in a normal manner ( no steno pads ).

And as we discussed on the 72 Pushbutton,  ( built in 71 and titled in 72 ) , everybody knows that left over 69 Shelby's were 70 Shelbys, etc.
and that some, if not a great many 74 L's were built in 1973.

This information doesn't make them any less of a car, in fact, given the improvements between the first 300 pushbutton cars and the
72 pushbutton that came over 2,000 cars later, I'd rather have the later one, you can't possibly think that the only thing left unchanged were the doors.

Michael

On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 12:39 PM, Gray Gregory <rgg at gregorycook.com<mailto:rgg at gregorycook.com>> wrote:
Exactly! As Mike has pointed out the same factory records exist for DeTomaso as with the other marques you mention. There's no state secrets here it's just that nobody has put forth the effort to compile them into one easily accessible place. The Shelby info you quoted is a perfect example. Those numbers didn't magically appear. Someone did a lot of digging through old paper records to compile all that info and tally it into total cars produced and then break that number down into the various sub totals you listed.

Maybe someday someone will be so motivated to do that with the DeTomaso records?

Gray

From: DeTomaso [mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com<mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com>] On Behalf Of shawkins777 at comcast.net<mailto:shawkins777 at comcast.net>
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2013 8:45 AM
Cc: detomaso at poca.com<mailto:detomaso at poca.com>

Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 5,639 Panteras 71-74 ??

I would guess it's because no one has wanted to know bad enough to do the research.

Steve
________________________________
From: "michael at michaelshortt.com<mailto:michael at michaelshortt.com>" <michaelsavga at gmail.com<mailto:michaelsavga at gmail.com>>
To: "Mike Drew" <MikeLDrew at aol.com<mailto:MikeLDrew at aol.com>>, detomaso at poca.com<mailto:detomaso at poca.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 5, 2013 6:14:50 AM
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 5,639 Panteras 71-74 ??

Why are you so angry?

Unless of course it was a pushbutton 1972 pre-L.
(Out of sequence serial number, built one year, side aside and titled the next year 1,600 cars later)

Or one of TWO known cars in the 8,000 series of numbers which may mean that 998 serials numbers were skipped.

Or unless it was a two pod dash 73.

Or one with a flat deck lid.

Or a 2000 series chassis built in 1973.

Or built by Amerisport, etc.

So if all of this is known, why is it some sort of state secret?

Exactly how many Panteras were built in total and if possible by year and or model?

I think a lot of us would like to have a definitive answer and not be told to go look it up because the respodent also does not know. Like asking my Mom for help with Trig homework.

You know, like 39 Ferrari GTOs,

Lamborghini Countach
2,042

Sunbeam Tigers - 7,083

Shelby Cobras
Leaf Spring Cobras:260 ci engine Street Cars - 62
260 ci engine Factory Works racers - 4
260 ci engine Factory-prepared racers - 1
260 ci engine Independently-prepared racers - 7
260 ci engine Dragonsnake - 1
Total 260 ci engine production - 75
289 ci engine Street Cars - 453
289 ci engine Factory Works racers:-Standard Competition - 2-
Sebring race cars - 3-LeMans race cars - 2-LeMans replica racers - 3-
427 Prototype Flip-Top - 1-
289 FIA cars - 5-Daytona Coupes -
6-USSRC Roadsters - 6
Total 289 ci Works race cars - 28
289 ci engine Factory-prepared competition cars:-Standard Competition - 2-LeMans prototype - 1-LeMans replicas - 3-
USRRC roadsters - 5
Total Factory prepared competition cars - 11
289 ci engine Independently prepared competition cars - 21
289 ci engine Dragonsnakes - 4
289 ci engine bare chassis for Mercer Cobra - 1
289 ci engine Willment Racing Coupe - 1
289 ci engine COB/COX Street Cars - 59
289 ci engine COB/COX Race Cars - 2
Total 289 ci engine Cobra - 580
Total Leaf Spring Cobra 260 & 289 cars - 655
Coil Spring Cobras:
427 Street Cars - 260
427 Prototype Competition Roadsters - 2
427 Production Competition Roadsters - 19
427 Semi-Competition Roadsters (S/C) - 31
427 Daytona Super Coupe - 1
427 Chassis only - 3
289 COB/COX Cars - 27
(427 Paramount Film Cars - 5, have been removed from the original Cobra totals)
Total Coil Spring Cobra - 343
GRAND TOTAL Leaf and Coil spring cars - 998

Michael
On Nov 5, 2013 2:20 AM, <MikeLDrew at aol.com<mailto:MikeLDrew at aol.com>> wrote:

In a message dated 11/4/13 18 51 10, michaelsavga at gmail.com<mailto:michaelsavga at gmail.com> writes:

Not when almost all other marques have lists that are date, time, color, option specific with a signature of the final quality check foreman.
It would be nice to know and not speculate which is all that any of us can do at present.

>>>According to Ford records, my car was one of 2,131 Panteras produced for Ford during 1972.  I assume that's the 1972 model (not calendar) year.  It was one of 445 produced in July, one of 558 cars painted yellow in 1972, and one of 123 that were ordered from the same DSO.  It was released for sale on 3/15/1973, serialized on 3/30/73 (whatever that means) and sold for the first time on 8/7/73 by Merriam Motors in Wallingford, CT.

It actually entered the USA in Baltimore, on a ship named Mare-By-Sea, having been shipped from Italy on August 5th, 1972.

This kind of data is available for every single Pantera sold by Ford in the USA simply by ordering a Marti report.  Although the data is normally VIN-specific, simply by getting one report for each model year, additive numbers can be established to show the total number of Panteras imported (probably not counting the pre-production prototypes etc. used for crash-testing and federal certification, although I know the VINS of those cars because I have the testing reports).  In fact, by getting Marti reports for a car of each color, from each year, it would be very easy to know exactly how many cars (both by year, and for all four years) were produced in each color, etc.  All you'd have to do is ask them for the information.

And as I said before, all the records are available for the non-US-market and post-Ford cars from De Tomaso in Modena.  While they don't have any statistical information, they have everything you would want to know (to include very specific information on the various modified engines that many cars were equipped with) for each individual car.  Invoices, correspondence, engine build data sheets, etc...it's all there.  I've seen them with my own eyes.

Don't speculate that records don't exist just because you haven't attempted to access them, and journalists have been too lazy to do so....

Mike

_______________________________________________

Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA

DeTomaso mailing list
DeTomaso at poca.com<mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com>
http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com

_______________________________________________

Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA

DeTomaso mailing list
DeTomaso at poca.com<mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com>
http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso_poca.com

--

Michael L. Shortt
Savannah, Georgia
www.michaelshortt.com<http://www.michaelshortt.com>
michael at michaelshortt.com<mailto:michael at michaelshortt.com>
912-232-9390

This email is protected by the Electronic Communications Privacy
Act, 18 U.S.C. Sec. 2510-2521, is confidential and may be legally
privileged.  If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified
that any retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this
communication is strictly prohibited.  Please reply to the sender that you
have received this message in error, then delete it.  Thank you
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://server.detomasolist.com/pipermail/detomaso/attachments/20131105/1f0c2f1c/attachment.html>