[DeTomaso] Pantera

[Mike Thomas]

Yeah, boy.  Best laid plans.  My apologies that I've not been able to get
over there for the review.  Been thrashing on a house remodel. 
 
I just phoned them and spoke to Shannon: the car was on it's way to
Switzerland two weeks ago, and the full price paid was for real.  We let
another one get away guys.
 
That said, Park Place has had a number of nice Panteras go through the last
five years, and Shannon said that by far, this was the nicest, cleanest,
straightest car he had ever seen.
 
Chuck Melton, I'll get the VIN for you to update the registry.  I'll have to
call Shannon back to ask.
 
oh well, keep looking . . .
Mike Thomas
 

  _____  

From: rhoward at comcast.net [mailto:rhoward at comcast.net] 
Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 1:23 PM
To: Mike Thomas
Cc: MikeLDrew at aol.com
Subject: Re: Pantera



Hi there, just wondered if anything transpired or if they were telling the
truth and they got the "big bucks" for this car at Park Place Motors.

 

Thanks again!!




  _____  

From: "Mike Thomas" <mbefthomas at comcast.net>
To: rhoward at comcast.net, MikeLDrew at aol.com
Sent: Friday, March 1, 2013 8:45:51 AM
Subject: RE: Pantera



I am going to have to postpone my survey until next week - have a contractor
coming tomorrow to finish drywall and have to finish the prep.
Take a deep breath, if it was meant to be yours, it will be.
 
Mike

  _____  

From: rhoward at comcast.net [mailto:rhoward at comcast.net] 
Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 8:44 PM
To: MikeLDrew at aol.com
Cc: mbefthomas at comcast.net
Subject: Re: Pantera



Well I have been schooled!!!!!!!!!!!

 

If Mike is still up to it, check out the car at PPM on Friday.




  _____  

From: MikeLDrew at aol.com
To: rhoward at comcast.net, mbefthomas at comcast.net
Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 9:20:12 PM
Subject: Re: Pantera


In a message dated 2/27/13 16 58 10, rhoward at comcast.net writes:





Gents, I need to call off the dogs. I had told the dealer that if Mike
(Thomas) checked the car out and all was as described, I would pay them $50K
for the car - bottom line and not a penny more. 



>>>That was highly premature.  $50K might have been too much.  You've
overplayed your hand and come out waving a white flag before the battle even
commenced!



>They just called me and told me they had an offer of $64,500 for the car
and $65K was necessary. 



>>>Do they really have such an offer?  I would find that highly suspect, as
that would be a TON of money for that car.  Quite simply, I would wager
heavily that they are engaging in typical shady used car salesman tactics,
since you approached them initially by rolling over and exposing your
underbelly and looking like a potential sucker buyer.  It's my job to ensure
that you don't get taken in by such hucksters, and wind up with a good car
at a fair (to both buyer and seller) price.



>I am not going to give them that although that rare color makes me think
the car is worth a premium. 



>>>You could NOT be more wrong!  That rare color makes it a MUCH tougher
sell, and probably knocks $5-10K off the perceived value of the car.  I
happen to love it, and would even (personally) consider paying a premium for
a car in that color, but the rest of the world strongly disagrees with me.
Red is still the most popular color, followed by yellow, and then perhaps
black (which was not an original color).  Any shade of green is viewed with
distaste by many, and green cars tend to gather dust waiting to be sold.
And when they do sell, it is typically for a lower price than a
same-condition car that was red or yellow.

Again, I would LOVE this color for myself.  Lori, my fiancee, owns her own
'71 Pantera, which was originally this shade of green, but was (as many/most
were) repainted a very flashy, generic shade of red long before they bought
it.  The red is now starting to chip off in places, exposing the green
underneath.  If she had a ton of money, she would strip it and repaint it
the original color.

You either like it or hate it.  We (all of us, it seems) happen to like it,
but we're in the minority.  Keep that in mind when negotiating if you take a
run at this car, and in fact, rather than treating it as a feature, treat it
as a liability, something that you're willing to overlook and 'live with'
rather than something to aspire to.



>I would be interested in you guys' input as I can afford the $65K but I
don't want to overpay. These cars are going up quickly though.
 
Let me know your thoughts.



>>>I think Mike should continue to go and look at the car, and evaluate it
for you.  Then, based on his findings, and an objective analysis of the
value of a Pantera in that condition, you could make a genuine, sincere,
educated offer.  They would probably decline it with harrumphs and scoffs,
as being not nearly enough.

Then, just wait.

After a few weeks or months go by, your sincere offer might be the highest
one they ACTUALLY received, and you might get a call offering the car to you
for that price.

By way of comparison, check out this car:

http://www.russoandsteele.com/collector-car/1974-Detomaso-Pantera/42892

It was scheduled to run through the auction last month, but a fellow here
contacted the seller (a dealer) and convinced them to sell it to him
directly.  He bought it sight unseen with no inspection in mid-January, four
weeks ago.  In fact, it seems to be a very good car, everything the photos
would indicate.

He paid $37K for this car.  NOT $65K, or $55K, or $45K.  This was a good
deal; the car is probably worth about $42-44K.  Because he's a project kind
of guy, just for the fun of it, he is already tearing it apart and plans to
completely redo it, although it really doesn't 'need' anything.  He could
just drive it and enjoy it, but he wants to totally revamp it.  He does all
his own work (to include paint and bodywork) and will be stripping it to
bare metal and painting it in his garage.

Based on this, I am confident in saying that the green car is probably a
$45-47K car.  If you were feeling REALLY generous, you might stretch to
$50K.  The car wouldn't be worth that much today; you would have to accept
the fact that you overpaid, and that it would take a few years of ongoing
appreciation before the car was genuinely worth what you paid for it.

Another example:

http://www.russoandsteele.com/collector-car/1974-Detomaso-Pantera/42892

This car sat in their showroom with an asking price in the $70K range, for a
year.  True, it's not to everyone's taste due to the odd color scheme.  But
that green is very distasteful to a high percentage of potential Pantera
owners, so it, too, would be a hard sell.

Anyway, this yellow car which was asking $70K, finally sold for $45K two
weeks ago.

Come to think of it, another same-green car as the one we're talking about,
2206, languished at a dealership in the Seattle area for many months, about
two years ago.  The only modification from stock was the fitment of a black
decklid, that has me asking, "well, what happened to the original one then,
or did they just paint the original one black, and if so, why?"  At the
time, the car had been sitting for years and didn't run; as it turns out,
all it needed was a new battery and fresh gas, and it fired right up and ran
fine.

Here is a Youtube video the dealer shot:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EL7w5lMd4pg

Their asking price was variable, starting at $36K, by the time of the video
it was $34.5K; after many months, including advertising it all over Europe,
they sold it for a bit less to a guy in Finland who bought it sight unseen.
The external condition appeared much like the one in question here, but
underneath it had a few 'used car' issues; some evidence of minor rust and
damage in the usual places, but nothing serious.  In fact, this car that is
for sale now might be in exactly the same condition, although I suspect it
is considerably nicer.

Anyway.  That's what a Pantera is worth.



>Most importantly, I want you two to know that I SINCERELY appreciate you
guys offering to help a stranger like you have. Very few people would do
that and it is humbling.



>>>Nah, it's pretty typical Pantera guy behavior.



>Let me know if you hear of any good Panteras for sale.



>>>I'll keep my eyes peeled!  

In the meantime, have you checked the obvious sources, i.e.  Ebay,
www.collectorcartraderonline.com, www.hemmings.com, etc.  There are lots of
cars for sale there, and some eye-popping prices.  But, it's worth noting
that the ones for sale with high asking prices have been 'on the verge of
being sold' for months, without actually selling.

Lots of cars here:

http://www.provamo.com/Members/DeTomaso4Sale/DeTomasoForSale.asp

Asking prices are all over the map--some are realistic, others aren't.  The
ones with high prices have been for sale, in some cases, for many, many
years.  

Duh!

Those are obviously people who don't get it, or don't really want to sell
their cars.  I do know at least one guy who's wife is pressuring him to sell
their car because she wants to spend the money elsewhere.  So he put it up
'for sale' with a hilariously high price.  She only knows how much money
he's spent on it, not that it's actually worth a fair bit less.  So, he
makes her happy by putting the car up for sale, but of course nobody is
going to buy it for him at his asking price, so he's happy too because he
gets to keep his car!

So, keep that in mind when you see a car from a private seller with a
through-the-roof asking price.  Not everything that appears for sale is
REALLY for sale.

But in the case of this dealer car, the car is for sale and they're just
trying to make a killing on it.  They might get lucky--somebody who doesn't
know anything about Panteras might be seduced by the shape of it, and the
condition, and be willing to pay what they want for it.  More power to him.
But he's in for a shock the first time he goes and meets another Pantera
owner, and an even greater shock if he ever decides to try to SELL it.

(In Monterey at the auctions last fall, a guy got drunk and started bidding
on a nice, blue Pantera, and wound up paying $66K for it.  It was probably
worth about $46K.  It didn't even make it home without overheating because
the cooling system was shot; he has since poured another $3-4K into it.  Now
he has a $70K Pantera that is probably still worth about $46K.  But, he
seems to be made of money and he's happy with it, so that's all that really
matters....)

Mike