[DeTomaso] NPC: Doolittle Raiders
Jerry Knotts
knottsj at galstar.com
Mon Jul 29 22:55:08 EDT 2013
It is also my understanding that the deck flag officer times the take
off flag to have the plane arrive at the bow when the bow is pitched
highest relative to the water.
Never went off a carrier but a 20 knot headwind is like doing 20 knots
while you are standing still. At the beginning of the roll you have 20
knots airspeed.
jerry
On 7/29/2013 8:33 PM, gow2 at rc-tech.net wrote:
> Yes. Lift is not really needed when accelerating in this situation. No
> need to slow it down when every inch is important.
>
>> So its all about building up ss much speed at the expense of lift until
>> the
>> few seconds...that makes sense.
>>
>> Thanks
>> On Jul 29, 2013 9:21 PM, <gow2 at rc-tech.net> wrote:
>>
>>> It is not about the extra runway traded for deck height. If they pulled
>>> back to create the lift to lift it off the runway right at the end of
>>> the
>>> runway, the increase in lift would also increase drag. They are
>>> basically
>>> waiting to create the lift as long as possible to keep form building up
>>> drag.
>>>
>>>
>>>> I have always marvelled at how even in the best of conditions back
>>> then,
>>>> many if not most of the planes dropped below the flight deck level
>>> when
>>>> they left the carrier before gaining altitude. There must be some
>>> formula
>>>> relating to the extra "pretend runway footage" that you get from being
>>> 6
>>>> or
>>>> 8 stories above the water at the end of the flightdeck.
>>>>
>>>> Michael Shortt
>>>> On Jul 29, 2013 9:03 PM, <gow2 at rc-tech.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Good information on the take off distance. I had always had that info
>>>>> from
>>>>> what I read but I interpreted it incorrectly. Much of that came form
>>> the
>>>>> discussion planning before they actually did the take off and from
>>> the
>>>>> #2
>>>>> pilot who figured if JD had room then he had room. Turned out the
>>>>> headwind
>>>>> was plenty of room and the concern soon fell.
>>>>>
>>>>> It is one thing to lift off by a certain mark on the ground, another
>>> to
>>>>> do
>>>>> it off a carrier.
>>>>>
>>>>> G
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> In fact every aircraft took off from the same spot. The B-25
>>> bombers
>>>>> were
>>>>>> too wide to take advantage of the additional space that was freed
>>> up
>>>>> by
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> planes that preceded them in taking off. There was a fear that if
>>> they
>>>>>> tried to take advantage of the additional length they would hit the
>>>>> super
>>>>>> structure of the carrier or go off on the left side as they tried
>>> to
>>>>> avoid
>>>>>> the super structure on the right. The carrier headed into the wind
>>> at
>>>>> full
>>>>>> speed and the B-25's took off one at a time. They were so short on
>>>>> fuel
>>>>>> (especially due to being forced to take off early due to being
>>> spotted
>>>>> by
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> Japanese picket ship that was able to radio a warning to japan
>>> before
>>>>> it
>>>>>> was sunk by the destroyer Nashville) that they weren't able to form
>>> up
>>>>> and
>>>>>> fly together in formation so each bomber flew on by it's self
>>> heading
>>>>>> toward Tokyo as soon as they took off. The B-25's were not
>>> completely
>>>>>> stripped off armaments, they had two .50 machine guns in the upper
>>>>> turret
>>>>>> and a .30 machine gun in the nose (these came in handy as three
>>>>> Japanese
>>>>>> fighters were shot down by them) One by *Whirling Dervish*, piloted
>>> by
>>>>>> Lieutenant Harold Watson and Two other fighters were shot down by
>>> the
>>>>>> gunners of the *Hari Kari-er*, piloted by Ross Greening. The tail
>>> guns
>>>>>> were
>>>>>> removed and replaced with broom sticks to discourage attacks from
>>> the
>>>>> rear
>>>>>> by Japanese fighters. They also strafed targets in Japan after they
>>>>>> dropped
>>>>>> their bombs.
>>>>>> Boyd
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 2:27 PM, Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> It helped having a Ph.D. from MIT in aeronautical engineering.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>>> From: "gow2 at rc-tech.net" <gow2 at rc-tech.net>
>>>>>>> To: Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com>
>>>>>>> Cc: detomaso <detomaso at poca.com>
>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 29, 2013 11:09 AM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] NPC: Doolittle Raiders
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The airplanes were stripped of every piece of weight they could
>>> take
>>>>> off
>>>>>>> including armor and guns. The most risk on take off was form the
>>>>> first
>>>>>>> B-25 which was Jimmy Doolittle. As each aircraft took off the
>>> length
>>>>> for
>>>>>>> take off increased by the airplane that was no longer on the deck
>>> of
>>>>> the
>>>>>>> carrier.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Japan did not think their home land could be hit and these guys
>>> had
>>>>> no
>>>>>>> good return plan. It was a one way trip. This hit on Japan changed
>>>>> the
>>>>>>> direction we were going on in the war.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jimmy Doolittle is also known for being the first to successfully
>>>>>>> develop
>>>>>>> and fly an instrument approach and many other things.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> G
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm guessing that most of the list member are much more familiar
>>>>> with
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> Doolittle Raiders than most Americans, but it's still worth
>>>>> reading.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Subject: Doolittle Raiders
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ....interesting historical account from WWII
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Doolittle Raiders
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps this item will warm your heart?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It's the cup of brandy that no one wants to drink.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, in Fort Walton Beach , Florida , the
>>> surviving
>>>>>>>>>> Doolittle Raiders gathered publicly for the last time.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> They once were among the most universally admired and
>>>>> revered
>>>>>>>>>> men
>>>>>>>>>> in the United States . There were 80 of the Raiders in April
>>> 1942,
>>>>>>>>>> when they carried out one of the most courageous and
>>>>>>>>>> heart-stirring military operations in this nation's history.
>>> The
>>>>>>>>>> mere mention of their unit's name, in those years, would bring
>>>>>>>>>> tears to the eyes of grateful Americans.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Now only four survive.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> After Japan's sneak attack on Pearl Harbor, with the
>>>>> United
>>>>>>>>>> States reeling and wounded, something dramatic was needed to
>>> turn
>>>>>>>>>> the war effort around.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Even though there were no friendly airfields close
>>> enough
>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> Japan for the United States to launch a retaliation, a daring
>>>>>>>>>> plan was devised. Sixteen B-25s were modified so that they
>>> could
>>>>>>>>>> take off from the deck of an aircraft carrier. This had never
>>>>>>>>>> before been tried -- sending such big, heavy bombers from a
>>>>>>>>>> carrier.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The 16 five-man crews, under the command of Lt. Col.
>>> James
>>>>>>>>>> Doolittle, who himself flew the lead plane off the USS Hornet,
>>>>>>>>>> knew that they would not be able to return to the carrier. They
>>>>>>>>>> would have to hit Japan and then hope to make it to China for a
>>>>>>>>>> safe landing.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But on the day of the raid, the Japanese military
>>> caught
>>>>> wind
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> the plan. The Raiders were told that they would have to take
>>> off
>>>>>>>>> >from much farther out in the Pacific Ocean than they had
>>> counted
>>>>>>>>>> on. They were told that because of this they would not have
>>>>>>>>>> enough fuel to make it to safety.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And those men went anyway.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> They bombed Tokyo , and then flew as far as they could.
>>>>> Four
>>>>>>>>>> planes crash-landed; 11 more crews bailed out, and three of the
>>>>>>>>>> Raiders died. Eight more were captured; three were executed.
>>>>>>>>>> Another died of starvation in a Japanese prison camp. One crew
>>>>>>>>>> made it to Russia .
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The Doolittle Raid sent a message from the United
>>> States
>>>>> to
>>>>>>> its
>>>>>>>>>> enemies, and to the rest of the world: We will fight. And, no
>>>>>>>>>> matter what it takes, we will win.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Of the 80 Raiders, 62 survived the war. They were
>>>>> celebrated
>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>> national heroes, models of bravery. Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer
>>> produced
>>>>>>>>>> a motion picture based on the raid; "Thirty Seconds Over Tokyo
>>> ,"
>>>>>>>>>> starring Spencer Tracy and Van Johnson, was a patriotic and
>>>>>>>>>> emotional box-office hit, and the phrase became part of the
>>>>>>>>>> national lexicon. In the movie-theater previews for the film,
>>> MGM
>>>>>>>>>> proclaimed that it was presenting the story "with supreme
>>> pride."
>>>>>>>>>> Beginning in 1946, the surviving Raiders have held a
>>>>> reunion
>>>>>>>>>> each
>>>>>>>>>> April, to commemorate the mission. The reunion is in a
>>> different
>>>>>>>>>> city each year. In 1959, the city of Tucson , Arizona , as a
>>>>>>>>>> gesture of respect and gratitude, presented the Doolittle
>>> Raiders
>>>>>>>>>> with a set of 80 silver goblets. Each goblet was engraved with
>>>>>>>>>> the name of a Raider.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Every year, a wooden display case bearing all 80
>>> goblets
>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>> transported to the reunion city. Each time a Raider passes
>>> away,
>>>>>>>>>> his goblet is turned upside down in the case at the next
>>> reunion,
>>>>>>>>>> as his old friends bear solemn witness.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Also in the wooden case is a bottle of 1896 Hennessy
>>> Very
>>>>>>>>>> Special
>>>>>>>>>> cognac. The year is not happenstance: 1896 was when Jimmy
>>>>>>>>>> Doolittle was born.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There has always been a plan: When there are only two
>>>>>>> surviving
>>>>>>>>>> Raiders, they would open the bottle, at last drink from it, and
>>>>>>>>>> toast their comrades who preceded them in death.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> As 2013 began, there were five living Raiders; then, in
>>>>>>>>>> February,
>>>>>>>>>> Tom Griffin passed away at age 96.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> What a man he was. After bailing out of his plane over
>>> a
>>>>>>>>>> mountainous Chinese forest after the Tokyo raid, he became ill
>>>>>>>>>> with malaria, and almost died. When he recovered, he was sent
>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> Europe to fly more combat missions. He was shot down, captured,
>>>>>>>>>> and spent 22 months in a German prisoner of war camp.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The selflessness of these men, the sheer guts ... there
>>>>> was a
>>>>>>>>>> passage in the Cincinnati Enquirer obituary for Mr. Griffin
>>> that,
>>>>>>>>>> on the surface, had nothing to do with the war, but that
>>>>>>>>>> emblematizes the depth of his sense of duty and devotion:
>>>>>>>>>> "When his wife became ill and needed to go into a
>>> nursing
>>>>>>> home,
>>>>>>>>>> he visited her every day. He walked from his house to the
>>> nursing
>>>>>>>>>> home, fed his wife and at the end of the day brought home her
>>>>>>>>>> clothes. At night, he washed and ironed her clothes. Then he
>>>>>>>>>> walked them up to her room the next morning. He did that for
>>>>>>>>>> three years until her death in 2005."
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> So now, out of the original 80, only four Raiders
>>> remain:
>>>>>>> Dick
>>>>>>>>>> Cole (Doolittle's co-pilot on the Tokyo raid), Robert Hite,
>>>>>>>>>> Edward Saylor and David Thatcher. All are in their 90s. They
>>> have
>>>>>>>>>> decided that there are too few of them for the public reunions
>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> continue.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The events in Fort Walton Beach this week will mark the
>>>>> end.
>>>>>>> It
>>>>>>>>>> has come full circle; Florida 's nearby Eglin Field was where
>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> Raiders trained in secrecy for the Tokyo mission. The town is
>>>>>>>>>> planning to do all it can to honor the men: a six-day
>>> celebration
>>>>>>>>>> of their valor, including luncheons, a dinner and a parade.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Do the men ever wonder if those of us for whom they
>>> helped
>>>>>>> save
>>>>>>>>>> the country have tended to it in a way that is worthy of their
>>>>>>>>>> sacrifice? They don't talk about that, at least not around
>>> other
>>>>>>>>>> people. But if you find yourself near Fort Walton Beach this
>>>>>>>>>> week, and if you should encounter any of the Raiders, you might
>>>>>>>>>> want to offer them a word of thanks. I can tell you from
>>>>>>>>>> firsthand observation that they appreciate hearing that they
>>> are
>>>>>>>>>> remembered.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The men have decided that after this final public
>>> reunion
>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>> will wait until a later date -- some time this year -- to get
>>>>>>>>>> together once more, informally and in absolute privacy. That is
>>>>>>>>>> when they will open the bottle of brandy. The years are flowing
>>>>>>>>>> by too swiftly now; they are not going to wait until there are
>>>>>>>>>> only two of them.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> They will fill the four remaining upturned goblets.
>>>>>>>>>> And raise them in a toast to those who are gone.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> PLEASE SEND THIS ON TO EVERYONE IN YOUR ADDRESS BOOK,
>>>>>>> ESPECIALLY
>>>>>>>>>> TO THOSE WHO WERE TOO YOUNG TO KNOW ABOUT THESE GUYS. THIS
>>> SHOULD
>>>>>>>>>> BE READ BY EVERY KID IN GRADE AND HIGH SCHOOL SO THEY KNOW WHAT
>>>>>>>>>> HAPPENED.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
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