[DeTomaso] Weber carbs

[Julian Kift]

Boyd,
There are a lot of perpetuated myths around Webers, but they are not the beast they are often portrayed to be as long as you don't forget to consider the package as a whole. The problem is many people get a generic set of Webers, pull off their 4 barrel Holley and bolt them on expecting them to run out of the box. What they also often fail to recognize is that Webers (or more correctly independent runners) require a specific camshaft lobe separation to run well. Jim Inglese (different than Inglese Induction which he sold to Comp Cams) given your engine specs will build you a bolt on set of Webers that he guarantees to run out of the box (notwithstanding the aforementioned correct cam choice).
When discussing Webers you are better to ask the question as to cost and complexity of tuning of Webers vs. an EFI conversion and I think you'll get a better comparative, both will require some dyno time to get everything dialed in and EFI is typically a significantly higher $$ investment.
The Hall manifold is an IDA, to which you can add IDF adapters, but this raises everything further in height. However an IDF manifold is available from Aussie-Speed (a reproduction of an old Cain manifold). The IDF's are more streetable than IDA's (which are essentially a race carb) and with the Aussie-Speed manifold you can run a set of IDF's with filters and it will all fit under the stock decklid and engine screen... no cutting.
I happen to have a spare Aussie-Speed manifold here as I was organizing a group buy (of which I was the only one that followed through, so I bought multiple manifolds to keep the price down).
Julian

> From: JDeRyke at aol.com
> Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2013 19:37:43 -0400
> To: boyd411 at gmail.com; detomaso at poca.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Weber carbs
> 
> In a message dated 7/26/13 2:39:04 PM, boyd411 at gmail.com writes:
> 
> > I have a question for anyone who has run webers on their cleveland  
> > engine.
> > Has anyone run IDA'S or IDF's and does anyone know iIf Hall Panteras weber
> > manifold is suitable for IDF's or IDA 's . Can anyone share their opinions
> > about the ups and downs of running webers and any recommendations.
> > 
> 
> Pull up a chair, Boyd- I think Halls intakes are for IDAs. What's often 
> used are 48 IDA (downdraft), and occasionally, 48 DCOE (side-draft). If you 
> could find them, 51 or 52 IDAs or DCOEs would be better. Wilkinson included 
> dual 51 DCOEs on his Magnecharger blower systems in the '80s. 
> All Webers are old carbs, as Weber of Italy stopped producing them in the 
> late '80s; they switched to EFI systems. A Weber subsidiary in Spain still 
> makes a few genuine carbs, I think. There are many counterfeit carbs 
> available- mostly from the far east, which look very much the same as original but 
> are sometimes porous & leak fuel. Jet threads in the castings are also iffy & 
> strip, and real Weber tuning parts may not fit right. 
> A point of advice: before spending money: find a local Weber expert to tune 
> your system and talk to him FIRST. What happens even with perfect NOS 
> Webers bolted on (ca $500 each plus intake manifold & air cleaners and  $250-up 
> for linkage) is, either the combination gives about the same power and milea
> ge as a single Holley, or it gives more power and 8 mpg. There are 5 jets and 
> two air bleeds plus a venturi, an aux. venturi and an emulsion tube for 
> each cylinder, all of which are tuneable. The cheapest Weber part is about $6, 
> which means DIY-ers usually have a drawerful of used-once jets & other parts 
> by the time they get their engine running correctly. 
> A second point; brand new never-run NOS Webers have been sitting on shelves 
> for maybe 40 years, so all the gaskets, o-rings and the ball bearings & 
> seals in the throttles are dry and shrunk. They will often leak unless rebuilt. 
> Rebuild kits are available but pricy, and there are many opportunities to 
> do it wrong. Buy a Weber Manual; Haynes has a decent one. 
> Air cleaners: chromed-brass ram tubes are often not included and are around 
> $25 each (need 8). Plastic ones are around, too. They fit inside the four 
> air cleaners, but avoid foam cleaners of any kind. Webers use 
> individual-runner intakes which have powerful ram-pulsations. They are stupid, too: carbs 
> meter fuel into incoming AND outgoing air pulses. This generates a cloud of 
> fuel-air above the ram tubes at some rpms. Foam cleaners will soak up the 
> extra fuel. Webers use no chokes- they have 'enrichment mechanisms'- so they 
> are subject to backfires when cold or if running a bit lean. A small backfire 
> will ignite the fuel-soaked air cleaners. ALWAYS carry a minimum of a 5-lb 
> fire extinguisher when running Webers. Freon extinguishers are less messy to 
> clean up than powder types. I've had two Weber fires (one destroyed an 
> engine) and they are scary. 
> Once you get them sorted, Weber carbs are wonderful, showy devices but the 
> sorting is painful. I spent 6 months- an hour or so every day- getting a set 
> running adequately, and that's not unusual. A friend spent nearly a year 
> sorting his set, including drilling out all the lead balls that seal the many 
> drillings in the castings, to clean each one by hand with solvent and pipe 
> cleaners. Good luck- J Deryke
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> 
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at poca.com
> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso