[DeTomaso] DB electric starter bites the dust

Tue Jul 23 20:50:26 EDT 2013

Dave ,
 Allot of the positive press they got was from me. I bought my first
starter from them in 2008.. Every time someone on the list asked about
"those cheap Chinese starters from DB Electrical I didn't hesitate to jump
in and tell everyone how pleased i was with the product AND the customer
service. As far as your statement that I failed to prove the cause of my
case is untrue or at least partially untrue. Based on circumstantial
evidence I have succesfully proved it, although I have not yet had the most
recent failed starter examined. The first starter that failed prematurely (
not the first starter I purchased but the one I purchased in May 2013 )
failed as a result of a defective solenoid. My Mechanic dissembled it to
diagnose the problem and confirmed that the solenoid was defective. In that
case the solenoid first would not engage the drive gear, it would
intermittently engage after numerous attempts at turning the ignition key.
When the drive gear would not engage the starter motor would just spin (
this is not the same problem Mike discussed.) After a week of intermittent
failure to engage the drive gear finally engaged for good! It would not
disengage and the starter continued to spin with the engine running and the
key turned off. I had to quickly disconnect the battery to stop it. My
mechanic (who is a Pantera owner and has owned his 1972 since it was new,
owns and runs a custom auto fabrication shop so he is very familiar with
Panteras and is not some neighborhood grease monkey ( just in case you were
wondering ) I did not ask nor expect DB Electric to reimburse me for the
money I spent installing and replacing their defective starters. And I'm
sorry but when two people have four starters (of the same model) and  all
four fail within a few weeks of being installed that's whats known  as a
preponderance of the evidence which is the required standard of proof in a
civil matter. Beyond a reasonable doubt is the burden of proof in a
criminal case , so if I claimed that DB Electric had killed my Pantera I
would have failed too prove my case ,  but when four starters from the same
vendor all fail with similar symptoms in similar circumstances and in a
similar time frame I believe that qualifies as a sufficient preponderance
of evidence to prove my case .I haven't told anyone on the list to stop
buying anything from DB Electric.(Although I would no longer recommend them
as a source of quality parts at a reasonable price.) I have said that I
would not be making any more purchases from them. I said the money I saved
buying their cheap starters was lost by the four fold increased expense I
bore installing and removing them.The fact that I didn't install the
starters myself is immaterial to my argument. My time is worth more to me
then the labor rate I pay my mechanic, So if I had R&R the two starters
(soon to be three) I would be even more upset because my cost in lost time
would be greater then the actual money I paid to have the work done by my
mechanic. I was very satisfied with the starter I purchased five years ago
it is only the recent purchases who's quality has come into question. I
want to make sure that no one else purchases a starter from DB based on my
past recommendations, if they do their own research and still choose to
purchase from DB then the responsibility is their own. I don't care to
undertake the responsibility for giving  bad advice.  By the way when was
the last time you purchased a starter from them? Was it 5 years ago or 5
weeks ago? Had it occurred to you that perhaps their has been some change
in their manufacturing source or quality control, and your loyalty and
fondness for their products may not be based on the current facts but on
information that is several years old. Have you ever heard the disclaimer
that investment advisers are always making? "Past results are no guarantee
of future events".  You have the right to buy all the Chinese parts you
desire and I wish you all the luck in the world in what ever choice you
make.
P.S I had my ignition switch checked, I have a new fire wall voltage
regulator, a new fire wall solenoid and a new Optima red top battery. I
also have a Pantera electronics fuse box and headlight controller as well
as having my radiator fans on relays per the instructions in the
PanteraPlace web  sight so I don't think their is so electrical
gremlin causing
the starters to fail. All the starters have been wired per the accepted
technique for wiring PMGR starters with a Ford fire wall mounted solenoid.

On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 7:42 PM, Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com> wrote:

> I'd be a little worried if a supplier treated the starter as a throw away
> part.  It's fine to offer a low price and a quick replacement if it fails,
> and if a low price is more important than reliability, that makes a lot of
> sense.  But if that is their business model, I think it's fair to want to
> know the failure rate so you can make a good decision.
>
> UPS bought a very large number of starters from IMI Performance to
> replace the cheap starters they had because it cost them several hundred
> dollars when a starter failed on one of their trucks.  It probably doesn't
> cost most of us serious $s if a starter fails, but I'd still want to know
> what the gamble is before playing the game.
>
> Ken
>
>   *From:* Dave <dave at damardirect.com>
> *To:* Boyd Casey <boyd411 at gmail.com>; Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com>
> *Cc:* De Tomaso List <detomaso at poca.com>; Jack Deryke <jderyke at aol.com>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 23, 2013 1:05 PM
> *Subject:* RE: [DeTomaso] DB electric starter bites the dust
>
> I am not trying to be smart. Any supplier/manufacturer has good reason not
> to disclose any failures to the public. It becomes an internal issue. The
> supplier/manufacturer might not open each returned product for inspection.
> It might be cost prohibitive, especially if they know  there was a problem
> & they replace the unit as they are returned. You can't say they have no
> way of tracking. You assume they have no way of tracking when in reality
> the "dumpster" could be another word for container that is returned to the
> plant. Again, there is no need for them to reveal their procedures to you
> or me. There is no obligation to reveal known defects for this type of
> product. If this was a television that failed twice, do you honestly think
> Sony, Hitachi, Samsung, etc. would tell you why the unit failed? Of
> course not. They want to keep it quiet.  Customer service is a tough job.
> No one calls to congratulate you on your product or service. If a customer
> calls with an attitude (often justifiable) it is up to the customer service
> person to try to calm down the caller. The rep may have to dismiss the
> caller due to threats or abuse. Unfortunate but it happens.
>
> I would think it would be better to fix the issue, wait a reasonable
> amount of time, 6-8 months then return with a response of the findings and
> point fingers at that time but not now. All you have now is speculation.
> You can have the best of any product and someone will have an issue.
> Sometimes legitimate and sometimes not. Someone will trash talk a 6.5
> million dollar jet. All I'm trying to say is get beyond speculation. Get
> the issue solved. DB Products has provided excellent service and products
> for many of us. Don't drag them through the mud until the speculation is
> settled.
>
> Mike Drew brought up a very good point with his over tightened voltage
> regulator that triggered the starter failure. You might never know the root
> or cause of your problem.. Also, as Mike said, not tightening the regulator
> yourself, you really don't know if it was over tightened. You have a lot of
> variables on the table.
> IndyDave
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Boyd Casey [mailto:boyd411 at gmail.com]
> Sent: Monday, July 22, 2013 4:27 PM
> To: Ken Green
> Cc: De Tomaso List; Jack Deryke
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] DB electric starter bites the dust
>
> I think part of the problem with DB Electric is as Bud Howard said in his
> post : Once he returned the starter that had failed he asked the people at
> DR Electrical "what was the cause of the failure?" They said "We don't even
> bother to check, we just chuck them in the dumpster."  among other things
> that shows a company that has no way of tracking quality control and or
> just doesn't care. That doesn't instill the kind of confidence that I would
> like to have in the company that is manufacturing the parts I am using in
> my Pantera. How could I drive from N.Y. to a Fun rally anywhere more then
> 25 miles away from home without worrying about whether or not I will make
> it to my destination and then back home.
> Boyd
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 3:24 PM, Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > IMI has been making and selling these for a long time.  Their original
> > patent is attached.  UPS was using cheap starters, and at least the
> > local UPS center has switched to Jack's starters.  If anyone has a
> > problem with his starters, I'm sure he personally will want to find
> > out what happened so it won't happen again.
> >
> > Ken
> >
> >  *From:* Ed Pike <erjpike at gmail.com>
> > *To:* Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com>
> > *Cc:* De Tomaso List <detomaso at poca.com>; Jack Deryke
> > <jderyke at aol.com>
> > *Sent:* Monday, July 22, 2013 12:07 PM
> >
> > *Subject:* Re: [DeTomaso] DB electric starter bites the dust
> >
> > Julian, Ken,
> >
> > My starter is a "Proform Hi Torque Gear Reduction Starter" sourced
> > from Summit. I am wondering if rather than a specific brand of starter
> > being an issue it is the "new and improved versions" of many of the
> > starters that are have become the issue?
> >
> > Ed..
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 2:44 PM, Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I have clients who have gone to China for manufacturing, and after
> > getting
> > > it right, it gets messed up.  They may have a good product for a
> > > year,
> > and
> > > then a container is delivered that is out of spec.  So you can get
> > > good parts from China, but there is a risk.
> > >
> > > Ken
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Boyd Casey <boyd411 at gmail.com>
> > > To: Julian Kift <julian_kift at hotmail.com>
> > > Cc: De Tomaso List <detomaso at poca.com>; Jack Deryke
> > > <jderyke at aol.com>
> > > Sent: Monday, July 22, 2013 10:19 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] DB electric starter bites the dust
> > >
> > >
> > > Julian,
> > > I am forwarding an e-mail that another member sent me off list. Read
> > about
> > > his experience with D&B Electric starters and I think more
> > > importantly
> > his
> > > experience with their customer service and their advice to him.
> > > Boyd
> > >
> > >
> > > Jerry Knotts
> > > 9:45 PM (15 hours ago)
> > > to detomaso
> > > Boyd,
> > >
> > > I had a problem with one of their starters hanging up and ruining a
> > > battery.  They sent another starter and I had it installed.  It
> > > lasted less than a week.  I called and ask if they had found the
> > > problem with the first starter and they explained it wasn't worth
> > > the trouble and they just throw the defective starters away.  I
> > > called again and explained that I was displeased with their products
> > > and wanted them to pay for a starter R&R after I had purchased a
> > > rebuilt at AutoZone.  They said no.  I said I was displeased with
> > > their customer service and they said I should shop elsewhere.  They
> > > did refund the original price of the starter after I returned the
> defective one.
> > >
> > > You would think at my age I would understand you rarely get what you
> > > pay for and almost never get more.
> > > jerry
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 12:38 PM, Julian Kift
> > > <julian_kift at hotmail.com
> > > >wrote:
> > >
> > > > This is a PMGR starter, one of the benefits over a standard
> > > > starter
> > being
> > > > the gear reduction (usually in the order of 4.5:1) reducing
> > > > current
> > draw.
> > > >
> > > > I'm skeptical that a previously endorsed product (now seemingly
> > > > quite widely used in Pantera's) is suddenly so bad, unless DB is
> > > > sourcing
> > from
> > > > a different supplier. You have now eaten 3 starters, so what else
> > > > has changed to cause the first (4 years is not a long or
> > > > acceptable service
> > > > life) and subsequent replacements to go out? Yes a higher quality,
> > higher
> > > > dollar starter may overcome your problem, but will you actually
> > > > tackle
> > > the
> > > > route cause of the problem? If you don't get to the route cause
> > > > then
> > any
> > > > solution is only temporary.
> > > >
> > > > Have you checked simple stuff like voltage at the starter, ground
> > > > continuity etc.?
> > > >
> > > > Julian
> > > >
> > > > > From: JDeRyke at aol.com
> > > > > Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2013 03:13:09 -0400
> > > > > To: boyd411 at gmail.com; detomaso at poca.com
> > > >
> > > > > Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] DB electric starter bites the dust
> > > > >
> > > > > In a message dated 7/21/13 5:25:42 PM, boyd411 at gmail.com writes:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Does anyone know of a problem that can be wiping out solenoids
> > > > > >
> > > > > A solenoid is a simple electromechanical device. Not much can go
> > wrong
> > > > with
> > > > > it, with so few parts. As I mentioned a few weeks ago, some
> > > > > foreign
> > > made
> > > > > solenoids have the main contacts in back insulated with a
> > thermoplastic
> > > > block.
> > > > > Your high compression engine may pull 300 AMPS of current
> > momentarily,
> > > > > which creates a LOT of heat. Eventually, the thermoplastic
> > > > > softens
> > > > enough for
> > > > > the contacts to sink into them, so they no longer make contact
> > > > > OEM starters use a thermoset material to insulate & mount
> > > > > solenoid contacts. Thermosets do not melt in high heat- they
> > > > > char. I've
> > 'fixed'
> > > a
> > > > couple of
> > > > > cheap foreign starters by using salvaged solenoid contact plates
> > > > > in nearly-new solenoid bodies. Pull the solenoid apart and see
> > > > > if
> > there's
> > > > any evidence
> > > > > the contacts have sunk into the plastic insulator so they no
> > > > > longer
> > > > touch.
> > > > > Buying another of what already failed, and expecting it to
> > > > > behave
> > > > differently
> > > > > is one definition of insanity. Good luck- J Deryke
> > > > > _______________________________________________
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> >
> > --
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Ed...
> > _______________________________________________
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