[DeTomaso] DB electric starter bites the dust

Tue Jul 23 19:42:57 EDT 2013

I'd be a little worried if a supplier treated the starter as a throw away part.  It's fine to offer a low price and a quick replacement if it fails, and if a low price is more important than reliability, that makes a lot of sense.  But if that is their business model, I think it's fair to want to know the failure rate so you can make a good decision.

UPS bought a very large number of starters from IMI Performance to replace the cheap starters they had because it cost them several hundred dollars when a starter failed on one of their trucks.  It probably doesn't cost most of us serious $s if a starter fails, but I'd still want to know what the gamble is before playing the game.

Ken

________________________________
From: Dave <dave at damardirect.com>
To: Boyd Casey <boyd411 at gmail.com>; Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com> 
Cc: De Tomaso List <detomaso at poca.com>; Jack Deryke <jderyke at aol.com> 
Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2013 1:05 PM
Subject: RE: [DeTomaso] DB electric starter bites the dust

I am not trying to be smart. Any supplier/manufacturer has good reason not to disclose any failures to the public. It becomes an internal issue. The supplier/manufacturer might not open each returned product for inspection. It might be cost prohibitive, especially if they know  there was a problem & they replace the unit as they are returned. You can't say they have no way of tracking. You assume they have no way of tracking when in reality the "dumpster" could be another word for container that is returned to the plant. Again, there is no need for them to reveal their procedures to you or me. There is no obligation to reveal known defects for this type of product. If this was a television that failed twice, do you honestly think Sony, Hitachi, Samsung, etc. would tell you why the unit failed? Of course not. They want to keep it quiet.  Customer service is a tough job. No one calls to congratulate you on your product or service. If a customer calls
 with an attitude (often justifiable) it is up to the customer service person to try to calm down the caller. The rep may have to dismiss the caller due to threats or abuse. Unfortunate but it happens. 

I would think it would be better to fix the issue, wait a reasonable amount of time, 6-8 months then return with a response of the findings and point fingers at that time but not now. All you have now is speculation. You can have the best of any product and someone will have an issue. Sometimes legitimate and sometimes not. Someone will trash talk a 6.5 million dollar jet. All I'm trying to say is get beyond speculation. Get the issue solved. DB Products has provided excellent service and products for many of us. Don't drag them through the mud until the speculation is settled.

Mike Drew brought up a very good point with his over tightened voltage regulator that triggered the starter failure. You might never know the root or cause of your problem.. Also, as Mike said, not tightening the regulator yourself, you really don't know if it was over tightened. You have a lot of variables on the table. 
IndyDave

-----Original Message-----
From: Boyd Casey [mailto:boyd411 at gmail.com] 
Sent: Monday, July 22, 2013 4:27 PM
To: Ken Green
Cc: De Tomaso List; Jack Deryke
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] DB electric starter bites the dust

I think part of the problem with DB Electric is as Bud Howard said in his post : Once he returned the starter that had failed he asked the people at DR Electrical "what was the cause of the failure?" They said "We don't even bother to check, we just chuck them in the dumpster."  among other things that shows a company that has no way of tracking quality control and or just doesn't care. That doesn't instill the kind of confidence that I would like to have in the company that is manufacturing the parts I am using in my Pantera. How could I drive from N.Y. to a Fun rally anywhere more then
25 miles away from home without worrying about whether or not I will make it to my destination and then back home.
Boyd

On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 3:24 PM, Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com> wrote:

> IMI has been making and selling these for a long time.  Their original 
> patent is attached.  UPS was using cheap starters, and at least the 
> local UPS center has switched to Jack's starters.  If anyone has a 
> problem with his starters, I'm sure he personally will want to find 
> out what happened so it won't happen again.
>
> Ken
>
>  *From:* Ed Pike <erjpike at gmail.com>
> *To:* Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com>
> *Cc:* De Tomaso List <detomaso at poca.com>; Jack Deryke 
> <jderyke at aol.com>
> *Sent:* Monday, July 22, 2013 12:07 PM
>
> *Subject:* Re: [DeTomaso] DB electric starter bites the dust
>
> Julian, Ken,
>
> My starter is a "Proform Hi Torque Gear Reduction Starter" sourced 
> from Summit. I am wondering if rather than a specific brand of starter 
> being an issue it is the "new and improved versions" of many of the 
> starters that are have become the issue?
>
> Ed..
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 2:44 PM, Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > I have clients who have gone to China for manufacturing, and after
> getting
> > it right, it gets messed up.  They may have a good product for a 
> > year,
> and
> > then a container is delivered that is out of spec.  So you can get 
> > good parts from China, but there is a risk.
> >
> > Ken
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Boyd Casey <boyd411 at gmail.com>
> > To: Julian Kift <julian_kift at hotmail.com>
> > Cc: De Tomaso List <detomaso at poca.com>; Jack Deryke 
> > <jderyke at aol.com>
> > Sent: Monday, July 22, 2013 10:19 AM
> > Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] DB electric starter bites the dust
> >
> >
> > Julian,
> > I am forwarding an e-mail that another member sent me off list. Read
> about
> > his experience with D&B Electric starters and I think more 
> > importantly
> his
> > experience with their customer service and their advice to him.
> > Boyd
> >
> >
> > Jerry Knotts
> > 9:45 PM (15 hours ago)
> > to detomaso
> > Boyd,
> >
> > I had a problem with one of their starters hanging up and ruining a 
> > battery.  They sent another starter and I had it installed.  It 
> > lasted less than a week.  I called and ask if they had found the 
> > problem with the first starter and they explained it wasn't worth 
> > the trouble and they just throw the defective starters away.  I 
> > called again and explained that I was displeased with their products 
> > and wanted them to pay for a starter R&R after I had purchased a 
> > rebuilt at AutoZone.  They said no.  I said I was displeased with 
> > their customer service and they said I should shop elsewhere.  They 
> > did refund the original price of the starter after I returned the defective one.
> >
> > You would think at my age I would understand you rarely get what you 
> > pay for and almost never get more.
> > jerry
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 12:38 PM, Julian Kift 
> > <julian_kift at hotmail.com
> > >wrote:
> >
> > > This is a PMGR starter, one of the benefits over a standard 
> > > starter
> being
> > > the gear reduction (usually in the order of 4.5:1) reducing 
> > > current
> draw.
> > >
> > > I'm skeptical that a previously endorsed product (now seemingly 
> > > quite widely used in Pantera's) is suddenly so bad, unless DB is 
> > > sourcing
> from
> > > a different supplier. You have now eaten 3 starters, so what else 
> > > has changed to cause the first (4 years is not a long or 
> > > acceptable service
> > > life) and subsequent replacements to go out? Yes a higher quality,
> higher
> > > dollar starter may overcome your problem, but will you actually 
> > > tackle
> > the
> > > route cause of the problem? If you don't get to the route cause 
> > > then
> any
> > > solution is only temporary.
> > >
> > > Have you checked simple stuff like voltage at the starter, ground 
> > > continuity etc.?
> > >
> > > Julian
> > >
> > > > From: JDeRyke at aol.com
> > > > Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2013 03:13:09 -0400
> > > > To: boyd411 at gmail.com; detomaso at poca.com
> > >
> > > > Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] DB electric starter bites the dust
> > > >
> > > > In a message dated 7/21/13 5:25:42 PM, boyd411 at gmail.com writes:
> > > >
> > > > > Does anyone know of a problem that can be wiping out solenoids
> > > > >
> > > > A solenoid is a simple electromechanical device. Not much can go
> wrong
> > > with
> > > > it, with so few parts. As I mentioned a few weeks ago, some 
> > > > foreign
> > made
> > > > solenoids have the main contacts in back insulated with a
> thermoplastic
> > > block.
> > > > Your high compression engine may pull 300 AMPS of current
> momentarily,
> > > > which creates a LOT of heat. Eventually, the thermoplastic 
> > > > softens
> > > enough for
> > > > the contacts to sink into them, so they no longer make contact 
> > > > OEM starters use a thermoset material to insulate & mount 
> > > > solenoid contacts. Thermosets do not melt in high heat- they 
> > > > char. I've
> 'fixed'
> > a
> > > couple of
> > > > cheap foreign starters by using salvaged solenoid contact plates 
> > > > in nearly-new solenoid bodies. Pull the solenoid apart and see 
> > > > if
> there's
> > > any evidence
> > > > the contacts have sunk into the plastic insulator so they no 
> > > > longer
> > > touch.
> > > > Buying another of what already failed, and expecting it to 
> > > > behave
> > > differently
> > > > is one definition of insanity. Good luck- J Deryke 
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > >
> > > > Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> > > >
> > > > DeTomaso mailing list
> > > > DeTomaso at poca.com
> > > > http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> > Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> >
> > DeTomaso mailing list
> > DeTomaso at poca.com
> > http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> > Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> >
> > DeTomaso mailing list
> > DeTomaso at poca.com
> > http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Thanks,
>
> Ed...
> _______________________________________________
>
> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at poca.com
> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
>
>