[DeTomaso] NPC: Motor racing and fairness

Gray Gregory rgg at gregorycook.com
Fri Jul 5 21:29:23 EDT 2013


Yes. Sorry for the typo.

-----Original Message-----
From: John Taphorn [mailto:jtaphorn at kingwoodcable.com] 
Sent: Friday, July 05, 2013 8:15 PM
To: Dave
Cc: Gray Gregory; michael at michaelshortt.com; Charles Engles; Jack Donahue; Mikael; detomaso at poca.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] NPC: Motor racing and fairness

Gray - Did you mean "subjective" rather than "Objective"?

JT
On 7/5/2013 6:43 PM, Dave wrote:
> Gray,
> Well said.
> IndyDave
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gray Gregory [mailto:rgg at gregorycook.com]
> Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2013 3:36 PM
> To: michael at michaelshortt.com; Charles Engles
> Cc: Jack Donahue; detomaso at poca.com; Mikael
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] NPC: Motor racing and fairness
>
> Fairness in motor racing is of course very objective and is a tough thing to achieve. Every sanctioning body has their own rules package, some more strict than others. F1 is in many ways the most open. Each team designs and builds their own car (albeit within a pretty strict rules package). This obviously results in a big advantage for the high budget teams and the overall $ spent in F1 are astounding. LeMans is very similar to F1 in this regard. NASCAR is well NASCAR enough said. Indy Car is much more of a "spec series" with each team having the same car (although there are multiple engine suppliers now) but even with all teams having the "same car" the big budget teams always seem to rise to the top. There's just no way to eliminate the advantage of money in racing never has been never will be! That's lead to a "shoot the generals" mentality among the sanctioning bodies in order to prevent total domination by one team and that's usually only marginally successful at best. There's just no perfect solution; one teams perfect rules changes is another teams biggest night mare. So the debate will continue for as long as there's racing...
>
> Gray
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: detomaso-bounces at poca.com [mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com] On 
> Behalf Of michael at michaelshortt.com
> Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2013 1:20 PM
> To: Charles Engles
> Cc: Jack Donahue; Mikael; detomaso at poca.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] NPC: Motor racing and fairness
>
> I never said squat about NASCAR.
>
> It has always been and will always be wrestling with cars and personalities.
>
> The best promoters and the most profitable short tracks know that, nothing sells tickets like a drivers fight in the pits or a 400 lb Elvis jumping a flaming school bus on an ATV.
>
> Michael Shortt
>   On Jul 4, 2013 2:14 PM, "Charles Engles" <cengles at cox.net> wrote:
>
>> **
>>
>> Dear Michael Short,
>>
>>              When someone disparages NASCAR, I am always reminded of 
>> the following story from the book:* Ford:The Dust and the Glory Vol 
>> 2*, page 208-09, which is a first hand account by a Ford PR exec, Tom 
>> Rhodes, with the NASCAR czar, Bill France, in the 1970s.
>>
>>              Bill France said,* " We are NOT in the racing business. 
>> We are in the entertainment business."*
>>
>>              So, if you think of NASCAR as an automotive circus that 
>> is entertaining, then you've got it about right according Big Bill France.
>>
>>
>>
>>                         Warmest regards, Chuck Engles
>>
>>   -----Original Message-----
>> From: detomaso-bounces at poca.com
>> [mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com<detomaso-bounces at poca.com>]
>> On Behalf Of Mikael
>> Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2013 9:01 AM
>> To: michael at michaelshortt.com; 'Darryl Johnson'
>> Cc: 'detomaso at poca.com'; 'John Donahue'
>> Subject: [DeTomaso] NPC: Motor racing and fairness
>>
>> Let me add my view on Schumacher. He won a lot, but...
>>
>> In the Benetton days because they cheated. In 94 he deliberately 
>> crashed into Hill to steal the championship in Australia. He then 
>> joined Ferrari where everything was about him, and FIA has given 
>> Ferrari advantages in strange decisions numerous times. Schumacher's 
>> latest Mercedes adventure kind of sets the record straight...
>>
>> Where has fair motorsports gone to? F1 is Ferrari's to win, the 
>> Tifosis rule, Nascar is a joke in this regard, even our beloved Le 
>> Mans where the fast cars get weight penalties to ensure the show? Is Indycar fair at least?
>>
>> Mikael
>>
>> -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
>>
>> Fra: michael at michaelshortt.com
>> [mailto:michaelsavga at gmail.com<michaelsavga at gmail.com>
>> ]
>>
>> Sendt: 3. juli 2013 20:50
>>
>> Til: Darryl Johnson
>>
>> Cc: detomaso at poca.com; John Donahue
>>
>> Emne: Re: [DeTomaso] NPC: F1 Tire Failures
>>
>> Let me also add Timo Glock to that list who bent over like a prison 
>> BIT$# so that Hamilton could win the F1 title instead of Massa who 
>> earned it and is twice the man in character, honor and guts and Diaz will ever be.
>>
>> Michael
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 2:46 PM, michael at michaelshortt.com < 
>> michaelsavga at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> If you have a teammate willing to crash his car into the bloody wall 
>>> to ensure that you win, if your team leader is EXPELLED ( Flavio) 
>>> from the sport forever for what he did to win those titles, if you 
>>> are in the middle of a tech spy case that resulted in a  100 million 
>>> dollar fine (McLaren), constantly whine like a little girl and pitch 
>>> a hissy fit because your teammate is in front of you (FerrarI), no 
>>> matter which team you are driving for,...
>>> "Alonzo is ah faster than you", Ferrari speak for "he can't pass 
>>> you, please let him by"
>>> yeah, Alonzo's the man, if your definition is cheater, cry baby, and 
>>> stool pigeon.
>>> maybe he can drive, but he lacks character and honor.
>>> I stand by my estimation of the little Philistine, Michael On Wed, 
>>> Jul 3, 2013 at 2:41 PM, Darryl Johnson
>> <johnsondarr at hughes.net>wrote:
>>
>>>> Wow, Michael. Your description of Fernando Alonso is a bit off in 
>>>> my opinion and I believe stems mostly from he and Lewis's issues at 
>>>> McLaren. At both Renault (two time world champion) and at Ferrari 
>>>> Fernando is LOVED not just liked. When Fernando went to McLaren as 
>>>> the current World Champion he was promised a certain level of 
>>>> support and status as the No. 1 driver.
>>>> Instead
>>>> Lewis and Ron Dennis the Team principal at McLaren treated him as a 
>>>> test driver and for the most part as second spot driver. Fernando's 
>>>> response to that was as it should have been. He held his No. 1 
>>>> status as best he could under the circumstances and then left for 
>>>> Ferrari.
>>>> Ron Dennis was later demoted and removed from race operations at 
>>>> McLaren. One reason among many was the loss of what most people in
>>>> F1
>>>> believe is the best driver in the race.
>>>> You and I can disagree on these points so let's use Racer 
>>>> Magazine's poll of the 12 team principal's in Formula One for their 
>>>> opinion of who is the "BEST DRIVER". Out of 12 teams Fernando 
>>>> Alonso was picked by 10 teams as the best driver in F1. Last year 
>>>> with a middle of the pack car he lost the championship by what 2 or 
>>>> 3 points (forgot and didn't look this up)?
>>>> I agree Kimi is great! He is the ICEMAN and drives with great skill 
>>>> and nerves of steel. But what most people like is his attitude.
>>>> Summed up by his response to the question of what would happen if 
>>>> he couldn't race in F1....
>>>> "there's lots of things to do besides F1"! This comment was made 
>>>> even more contrasting to the other drivers who were panicking about 
>>>> where and who they could drive for in the upcoming seasons.
>>>> But remember when Fernando was with Renault (now Lotus) he won the
>>>> F1
>>>> championship twice. At a time when Mickael Schumacher and Ferrari 
>>>> were almost invincible. Kimi has yet to do that at Lotus (Renault) 
>>>> however he is a F1 World Champion. Right now the F1 championship is 
>>>> a race between Vettel and you guessed it Fernando Alonso who has a 
>>>> clearly inferior car. Both have a DNF due to failures.
>>>> Just to keep it real.
>>>> Darryl
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: detomaso-bounces at poca.com
>>>> [mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com<detomaso-bounces at poca.com>]
>> On
>>
>>>> Behalf Of michael at michaelshortt.com
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2013 10:25 AM
>>>> To: LS
>>>> Cc: John Donahue; DeTomaso at poca.com
>>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] NPC: F1 Tire Failures Kimi is my fav 
>>>> driver, he should have been a multiple time world champion, he was 
>>>> so screwed during his time at McLaren, he developed that bcar for 
>>>> the success that followed, much the same way that Schumacher did at 
>>>> MB for their success this year.
>>>> I can't stand Diaz ( Alonzo's real name), cry baby, cheater, and 
>>>> stool pigeon.
>>>> Michael
>>>> On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 1:20 PM, LS <lashdeep at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>> I really like Kimi and not just because he can put down some 
>>>>> serious
>>>> booze.
>>>>> He's shown his incredible skill but the early season pace of the 
>>>>> Lotus is gone.
>>>>> He does need to find a car (Lotus or not) that can perform...
>>>>> LS
>>>>> central
>>>>> wines-spirits   est 1934
>>>>> 625 e street nw
>>>>> washington, dc 20004
>>>>> centralwines.com
>>>>> facebook.com/CentralLiquors
>>>>> 202-737-2800
>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>   From: John Donahue <demongusta at me.com>
>>>>> To: LS <lashdeep at yahoo.com>
>>>>> Cc: DeTomaso at poca.com
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 3, 2013 12:56 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] NPC: F1 Tire Failures Kimi needs a car. He 
>>>>> has milked the Lotus. Needs Webber's spot.
>>>>> Or
>>>> Mazza's.
>>>>> On Jul 3, 2013, at 9:51 AM, LS <lashdeep at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>> That was scary to watch last weekend!
>>>>>> Not very comforting for a drive to know that his left rear could 
>>>>>> go at
>>>>> anytime.
>>>>>> LS
>>>>>> central
>>>>>> wines-spirits   est 1934
>>>>>> 625 e street nw
>>>>>> washington, dc 20004
>>>>>> centralwines.com
>>>>>> facebook.com/CentralLiquors
>>>>>> 202-737-2800
>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>> From: "michael at michaelshortt.com" <michaelsavga at gmail.com>
>>>>>> To: "detomaso at poca.com" <detomaso at poca.com>
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 3, 2013 12:13 PM
>>>>>> Subject: [DeTomaso] NPC: F1 Tire Failures Looks like I have to 
>>>>>> eat crow, who knew ( apparently NOT EVEN THE
>>>>>> F1
>>>>> TEAMS,
>>>>>> for the first time is history that the tires were built 
>>>>>> asymmetrically, ( Left side and Right side specific ), so when I 
>>>>>> said otherwise, I was
>>>>> wrong,
>>>>>> but not alone.
>>>>>> Here's the poop from Autoweek.
>>>>>> Michael Shortt
>>>>>> Pirelli releases statement regarding Silverstone tire failures 
>>>>>> *Tire supplier says it is not to blame for failures*
>>>>>> By: Adam Cooper on July 2, 2013
>>>>>>     -
>>>>>>     <
>>>>> http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20130702/F1/13
>>>>> 07
>>>>> 099
>>>>> 60&template=XSendMail
>>>>>> Pirelli has issued the following statement on what happened at
>>>>>> Silverstone<http://www.autoweek.com/article/20130701/F1/1307099
>>>>>> 96
>>>>>> -- and what the company plans to do next. See our previous 
>>>>>> stories for a summary.
>>>>>> After exhaustive analysis of the tires used at Silverstone, 
>>>>>> Pirelli has concluded that the causes of the failures were 
>>>>>> principally down to a combination of the following factors:
>>>>>> 1) Rear tires that were mounted the wrong way round: in other 
>>>>>> words, the right hand tire being placed where the left hand one 
>>>>>> should be and vice versa, on the cars that suffered failures.
>>>>>> The
>>>>>> tires supplied this year have an asymmetric structure, which 
>>>>>> means that they are not designed to
>>>>> be
>>>>>> interchangeable. The sidewalls are designed in such a way to deal 
>>>>>> with specific loads on the internal and external sides of the tire.
>>>>>> So
>>>>> swapping
>>>>>> the tires round has an effect on how they work in certain 
>>>>>> conditions. In particular, the external part is designed to cope 
>>>>>> with the very high
>>>>> loads
>>>>>> that are generated while cornering at a circuit as demanding as 
>>>>>> Silverstone, with its rapid left-hand bends and some kerbs that 
>>>>>> are particularly aggressive.
>>>>>> 2) The use of tire pressures that were excessively low or in any 
>>>>>> case
>>>>> lower
>>>>>> than those indicated by Pirelli. Under-inflating the tires means 
>>>>>> that the tire is subjected to more stressful working conditions.
>>>>>> 3) The use of extreme camber angles.
>>>>>> 4) Kerbing that was particularly aggressive on fast corners, such 
>>>>>> as that on turn four at Silverstone, which was the scene of most 
>>>>>> of the
>>>> failures.
>>>>>> Consequently it was the left-rear tires that were affected.
>>>>>> The only problems that had come to light before Silverstone were 
>>>>>> to do
>>>>> with
>>>>>> delamination, which was a completely different phenomenon. To 
>>>>>> stop these delaminations Pirelli found a solution by suggesting 
>>>>>> that the teams use
>>>>> the
>>>>>> tires that were tried out in Canada from Silverstone onwards.
>>>>>> When this proposal was not accepted, Pirelli found another 
>>>>>> solution through laboratory testing, with a different bonding 
>>>>>> process to attach the tread
>>>>> to
>>>>>> the carcass. So the problem of delamination has nothing at all to 
>>>>>> do with what was seen in Great Britain.
>>>>>> Following the conclusions of this analysis, Pirelli would like to
>>>>> underline
>>>>>> that:
>>>>>> 1) Mounting the tires the wrong way round is a practice that
>>>>>> was
>>>>>> nonetheless underestimated by everybody: above all Pirelli,
>>>>>> which
>>>>>> did not forbid this.
>>>>>> 2) In the same way, under-inflation of the tires and extreme
>>>>>> camber settings, over which Pirelli has no control, are choices
>>>>>> that can be dangerous under certain circumstances. Because of
>>>>>> this, Pirelli has asked the FIA for these parameters to be a
>>>>>> topic of accurate and future examinations. (Doesn't make sense)
>>>>>> Pirelli has also asked for compliance with these rules to be
>>>>>> checked
>> by a dedicated delegate.
>>
>>>>>> 3) Pirelli would also like to underline that the 2013 tire
>>>>>> range
>>>>>> does not compromise driver safety in any way if used in the
>>>>>> correct manner, and
>>>>> that
>>>>>> it meets all the safety standards requested by the FIA.
>>>>>> The logical conclusion is that it is essential for tires with
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> performance and technical sophistication of the 2013 range to
>>>>>> be
>>>>> regulated
>>>>>> and carefully controlled by Pirelli itself. In order to ensure
>>>>>> the
>>>>> optimal
>>>>>> functioning of the tires, the Italian firm would need real-time
>>>>>> data from the teams regarding fundamental parameters such as
>>>>>> pressure, temperature and camber angles. While waiting for new
>>>>>> regulations that would permit Pirelli access to this data,
>>>>>> vital
>>>>>> for the development and management of these state-of-the-art
>>>>>> tires, the following measures are proposed for the forthcoming
>>>>>> grands prix, in agreement with the FIA, FOM, the teams and
>>>>> the
>>>>>> drivers:
>>>>>> 1) The use of the evolution of the current tire that was tested
>>>>>> in Canada (and proved to be completely reliable) for the German
>>>>>> Grand Prix this weekend. This represents the best match for the
>>>>>> technical characteristics of the Nürburgring circuit. In
>>>>>> particular, the rear tires that will be
>>>>> used
>>>>>> at the German Grand Prix, which takes place on July 7, have a
>>>>>> Kevlar construction that replaces the current steel structure
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> the re-introduction of the 2012 belt, to ensure maximum
>>>>>> stability
>>>>>> and roadholding. Given that these tires are asymmetric as well,
>>>>>> it will be strictly forbidden to swap them round. The front
>>>>>> tires, by contrast, will remain unaltered.
>>>>>> 2) From the Hungarian Grand Prix onwards, the introduction of a
>>>>>> new range of tires. The new tires will have a symmetrical
>>>>>> structure, designed to guarantee maximum safety even without
>>>>>> access to tire data - which however is essential for the
>>>>>> optimal
>>>>>> function of the more sophisticated 2013
>>>>> tires.
>>>>>> The tires that will be used for the Hungarian Grand Prix
>>>>>> onwards
>>>>>> will combine the characteristics of the 2012 tires with the
>>>>>> performance of the
>>>>>> 2013 compounds. Essentially, the new tires will have a
>>>>>> structure,
>>>>>> construction and belt identical to that of 2012, which ensured
>>>>>> maximum performance and safety. The compounds will be the same
>>>>>> as
>>>>>> those used throughout 2013, which guaranteed faster lap times
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> a wider working range. This new specification, as agreed with
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> FIA, will be tested on-track together with the teams and their
>>>>>> 2013 cars at Silverstone from July 17-19 in a session with the
>>>>>> race drivers during the Young Driver
>>>>> Test.
>>>>>> These tests will contribute to the definitive development of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> new
>>>>> range
>>>>>> of tires, giving teams the opportunity to carry out the
>>>>>> appropriate
>>>>> set-up
>>>>>> work on their cars.
>>>>>> Read more:
>>>>>> http://www.autoweek.com/article/20130702/f1/130709960#ixzz2Y01k
>>>>>> Yj
>>>>>> D8
>>>>>> Follow us: @AutoweekUSA on
>>>>>> Twitter<http://ec.tynt.com/b/rw?id=crYS7cwFer3QPQacn9QLBk&u=Aut
>>>>>> ow
>>>>>> eek
>>>>>> USA>
>>>>>> | AutoweekUSA on
>>>>>> Facebook<http://ec.tynt.com/b/rf?id=crYS7cwFer3QPQacn9QLBk&u=Au
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> wee
>>>>>> kUSA
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Michael L. Shortt
>>>>>> Savannah, Georgia
>>>>>> www.michaelshortt.com
>>>>>> michael at michaelshortt.com
>>>>>> 912-232-9390
>>>>>> This email is protected by the Electronic Communications
>>>>>> Privacy
>>>>>> Act, 18 U.S.C. Sec. 2510-2521, is confidential and may be
>>>>>> legally
>>>>>> privileged.  If you are not the intended recipient, you are
>>>>>> hereby
>>>>> notified
>>>>>> that any retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of
>>>>>> this communication is strictly prohibited.  Please reply to the
>>>>>> sender that
>>>>> you
>>>>>> have received this message in error, then delete it.  Thank you
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>>>> --
>>>> Michael L. Shortt
>>>> Savannah, Georgia
>>>> www.michaelshortt.com
>>>> michael at michaelshortt.com
>>>> 912-232-9390
>>>> This email is protected by the Electronic Communications Privacy
>>>> Act,
>>>> 18 U.S.C. Sec. 2510-2521, is confidential and may be legally
>>>> privileged.  If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby
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>>> --
>>> Michael L. Shortt
>>> Savannah, Georgia
>>> www.michaelshortt.com
>>> michael at michaelshortt.com
>>> 912-232-9390
>>> This email is protected by the Electronic Communications Privacy
>>> Act,
>>> 18 U.S.C. Sec. 2510-2521, is confidential and may be legally
>>> privileged.  If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby
>>> notified that any retention, dissemination, distribution or copying
>>> of
>>> this communication is strictly prohibited.  Please reply to the
>>> sender
>>> that you have received this message in error, then delete it.  Thank
>>> you
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Michael L. Shortt
>>
>> Savannah, Georgia
>>
>> www.michaelshortt.com
>>
>> michael at michaelshortt.com
>>
>> 912-232-9390
>>
>> This email is protected by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act,
>> 18
>>
>> U.S.C. Sec. 2510-2521, is confidential and may be legally privileged.
>> If
>>
>> you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any
>>
>> retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this
>> communication is
>>
>> strictly prohibited.  Please reply to the sender that you have
>> received this
>>
>> message in error, then delete it.  Thank you
>>
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