[DeTomaso] NPC: Motor racing and fairness

Thu Jul 4 12:34:36 EDT 2013

Gary, great thread-up!  I am fascinated by planes also - what the flyers did back in the 20s, and 30s is unbelievable.  Knowing that you will have to land, but not knowing where - grande cojones!!!     And, all the pilots in WWII - weren't they late teens/early twenties in age!  And, the ironic thing is that I took flying lessons back in the day, but quit after about five hours flying - I was bored out of my gourd (plus I had/have ADD).   ---BILL Lewis

> Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2013 10:49:09 -0500
> From: gow2 at rc-tech.net
> To: mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
> CC: detomaso at poca.com; michael at michaelshortt.com; demongusta at me.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] NPC: Motor racing and fairness
> 
> I don't actually see Nascar as a race. I never remember or pay attention
> to the winner because it is irrelevant. I will say I have it on the shop
> when I am working on cars. It is a good background noise which I don't
> have to pay attention to; because there is no reason. The dynamics of the
> cars, power, technology is no doubt interesting. I would be less then
> Human to say that I don't put down my tools to see a big wreck, to watch
> the dynamics of the wreck, etc. There is never a race I could not walk
> away from because....well is really a race or a demonstration.
> 
> After going to air races, I find it hard to enjoy auto races unless I can
> specifically participate.
> 
> If you ever have a chance to go to the Reno Air races I would encourage
> you to do so. It is still a dangerous sport even for spectators as was
> seen a few years ago. One year I went 3 guys were killed in their
> airplanes which was unfortunate and once incident a biplane landed where a
> group had just left in an area considered a safe zone.
> 
> None the less, some of the races are categorized and some are UNLIMITED!
> Unlimited meaning....besides being propeller driven, UNLIMITED! These guys
> do not race for purse for the purse would not pay for much.
> 
> Growing up through college and then some, Have followed RareBear owned by
> Lyle Sheldon and latter bought by Lewis. Fastest prop driven airplane in
> the world still today at 528mph. The airplane is equipped with a 3350 from
> a Lockheed Constellation. For years ran a P3-Orion propeller.  The prop
> was so big he could not make a full tail up take off or landing as it
> would strike the prop!
> 
> http://www.rc-tech.net/rn/Bear.jpg
> 
> http://www.rc-tech.net/rn/Bear_d.jpg
> 
> http://www.rc-tech.net/rn/Bear_puff2.jpg
> 
> http://www.lewisairlegends.com/aircraft/rare-bear
> 
> 
> My first visit to the races, spent the week following the heats. With Rare
> Bear's new owner, the plane finally had a real source of money. Talking
> with John Penny the pilot, the plane had totally been rebuilt. They were
> making progress with fuel and ignition and increasing speeds every lap.
> They were only disappointed in the paint of all things. The painted used a
> heavy grit sand paper and concern was they damaged the airplane skin.
> After the races it was to be completely stripped and inspected.
> 
> During the heat races the speeds got better and better; watching with
> interest. The day of the race the airplanes are rolled out in big fan fair
> with the team member sitting on the wings. Groups in the stand cheering
> for their favorite. As the engines and airplanes fire up and head out the
> tension rises as thousands of Horse Power head for the air; no airplane
> the same, no strategy the same.
> 
> As the Pace plane and the race begins within a half a lap Rare Bear is
> ahead. Soon he is a half a lap ahead of everyone then nearly a lap a head
> of number 2. WHAT IS GOING ON! Thee racing is about winning and leading in
> this sort of fashion only begs self destruction of the engine. You only
> use what you have to otherwise risk blowing your engine.
> 
> Will he make it or will the engine blow? Rare Bear wins blowing the doors
> off like we have not seen in a long time....but then he pulls up and is
> joined by the jet pace plane. Soon the announcer says that Rare Bear's
> throttle IS STILL stuck wide open AND...he has 5 minutes of fuel left!!!!
> 
> All the planes land as quickly as they can and get out of the way. Rare
> Bear lines up and kills the ignition and the engine for the most perfect
> engine out landing you could ask for.
> 
> I am sorry but nothing in car racing has ever got my goat such as this.
> 
> After the race we hung out for a while. Come to find out, the painter put
> a thick skim of bondo on the cowl. Some bondo popped off, entered the
> intake duct, blocked some of the duct but also lodged the throttle full
> open!!
> 
> http://www.rc-tech.net/rn/Bear_puff2.jpg
> 
> Reno air racing is as close to a 1965 event I think you can come to. When
> you walk in the atmosphere is just.......You have to be there. The risk is
> still there as you would have from that time frame and is real. We all
> know the event which this plane was involved in which caused many lives:
> 
> http://www.rc-tech.net/rn/GG.jpg
> 
> I was there the year before. The talk was of the modifications this plane
> had which they thought would blow Rare Bear out of the water. As the gold
> race came near the energy in the air was again building. BUT....the winds
> were bad. In the race prior to the gold 3/4 scale mustangs were battling
> when one lost an engine and declared a mayday. The fella flying this
> airplane was a little late making a turn and could not align with the
> runway before running out of airspeed and altitude. He did however keep it
> under control.
> 
> BUT.. his path took him straight for the military pits which had people
> beginning to run. He touched down in the intersection crossing the runways
> perpendicular. As he left the runway the ditch threw the airplane back in
> the air for which he was to slow for his flight controls to do anything.
> His airplane cart wheeled as our stomachs rose to our lungs.
> 
> I took this photo :30 after he stopped:
> 
> http://www.rc-tech.net/rn/wreck.jpg
> 
> A few minutes latter he stood and waved to the crowd.
> 
> After which they canceled the gold races due to wind. On this day no one
> would know what :Galloping Ghost was really capable of. The following year
> a trim tab broke on Galloping ghost and he hit 12G's knocked to the
> floorboard of the aircraft as the aircraft came down with no control into
> the center of the air show killing several people. I really thought the
> airshow was over and I think it will always have a dark cloud after that.
> 
> The racing P-51's have had at least 3 incidents with the trim tab coming
> off causing extreme pull ups. One crashed in the desert, another the guy
> woke up at 10,000+ feet with his face on the floor being pulled through
> the straps trying to figure out where he was and what was going on. He
> lived.
> 
> Yet NOTHING I have seen (except maybe a shuttle launch) has compared to
> unlimited air racing and Warbirds chasing each other:
> 
> http://www.rc-tech.net/rn/twins.jpg
> 
> 
> I also believe at some point safety will kill this sport so if you want to
> experience it I would do so now!
> 
> Gary
> 
> 
> 
> > Let me add my view on Schumacher. He won a lot, but...
> > In the Benetton days because they cheated. In 94 he deliberately crashed
> > into Hill to steal the championship in Australia. He then joined Ferrari
> > where everything was about him, and FIA has given Ferrari advantages in
> > strange decisions numerous times. Schumacher's latest Mercedes adventure
> > kind of sets the record straight...
> >
> > Where has fair motorsports gone to? F1 is Ferrari's to win, the Tifosis
> > rule, Nascar is a joke in this regard, even our beloved Le Mans where the
> > fast cars get weight penalties to ensure the show? Is Indycar fair at
> > least?
> >
> > Mikael
> > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
> > Fra: michael at michaelshortt.com [mailto:michaelsavga at gmail.com]
> > Sendt: 3. juli 2013 20:50
> > Til: Darryl Johnson
> > Cc: detomaso at poca.com; John Donahue
> > Emne: Re: [DeTomaso] NPC: F1 Tire Failures
> >
> > Let me also add Timo Glock to that list who bent over like a prison BIT$#
> > so
> > that Hamilton could win the F1 title instead of Massa who earned it and is
> > twice the man in character, honor and guts and Diaz will ever be.
> >
> > Michael
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 2:46 PM, michael at michaelshortt.com <
> > michaelsavga at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> If you have a teammate willing to crash his car into the bloody wall
> >> to ensure that you win, if your team leader is EXPELLED ( Flavio) from
> >> the sport forever for what he did to win those titles, if you are in
> >> the middle of a tech spy case that resulted in a  100 million dollar
> >> fine (McLaren), constantly whine like a little girl and pitch a hissy
> >> fit because your teammate is in front of you (FerrarI), no matter
> >> which team you are driving for,...
> >>
> >> "Alonzo is ah faster than you", Ferrari speak for "he can't pass you,
> >> please let him by"
> >>
> >> yeah, Alonzo's the man, if your definition is cheater, cry baby, and
> >> stool pigeon.
> >>
> >> maybe he can drive, but he lacks character and honor.
> >>
> >> I stand by my estimation of the little Philistine,
> >>
> >> Michael
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 2:41 PM, Darryl Johnson
> > <johnsondarr at hughes.net>wrote:
> >>
> >>> Wow, Michael. Your description of Fernando Alonso is a bit off in my
> >>> opinion and I believe stems mostly from he and Lewis's issues at
> >>> McLaren. At both Renault (two time world champion) and at Ferrari
> >>> Fernando is LOVED not just liked. When Fernando went to McLaren as
> >>> the current World Champion he was promised a certain level of support
> >>> and status as the No. 1 driver.
> >>> Instead
> >>> Lewis and Ron Dennis the Team principal at McLaren treated him as a
> >>> test driver and for the most part as second spot driver. Fernando's
> >>> response to that was as it should have been. He held his No. 1 status
> >>> as best he could under the circumstances and then left for Ferrari.
> >>> Ron Dennis was later demoted and removed from race operations at
> >>> McLaren. One reason among many was the loss of what most people in F1
> >>> believe is the best driver in the race.
> >>>
> >>> You and I can disagree on these points so let's use Racer Magazine's
> >>> poll of the 12 team principal's in Formula One for their opinion of
> >>> who is the "BEST DRIVER". Out of 12 teams Fernando Alonso was picked
> >>> by 10 teams as the best driver in F1. Last year with a middle of the
> >>> pack car he lost the championship by what 2 or 3 points (forgot and
> >>> didn't look this up)?
> >>>
> >>> I agree Kimi is great! He is the ICEMAN and drives with great skill
> >>> and nerves of steel. But what most people like is his attitude.
> >>> Summed up by his response to the question of what would happen if he
> >>> couldn't race in F1....
> >>> "there's lots of things to do besides F1"! This comment was made even
> >>> more contrasting to the other drivers who were panicking about where
> >>> and who they could drive for in the upcoming seasons.
> >>>
> >>> But remember when Fernando was with Renault (now Lotus) he won the F1
> >>> championship twice. At a time when Mickael Schumacher and Ferrari
> >>> were almost invincible. Kimi has yet to do that at Lotus (Renault)
> >>> however he is a F1 World Champion. Right now the F1 championship is a
> >>> race between Vettel and you guessed it Fernando Alonso who has a
> >>> clearly inferior car. Both have a DNF due to failures.
> >>>
> >>> Just to keep it real.
> >>>
> >>> Darryl
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: detomaso-bounces at poca.com [mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com] On
> >>> Behalf Of michael at michaelshortt.com
> >>> Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2013 10:25 AM
> >>> To: LS
> >>> Cc: John Donahue; DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] NPC: F1 Tire Failures
> >>>
> >>> Kimi is my fav driver, he should have been a multiple time world
> >>> champion, he was so screwed during his time at McLaren, he developed
> >>> that bcar for the success that followed, much the same way that
> >>> Schumacher did at MB for their success this year.
> >>>
> >>> I can't stand Diaz ( Alonzo's real name), cry baby, cheater, and
> >>> stool pigeon.
> >>>
> >>> Michael
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 1:20 PM, LS <lashdeep at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> > I really like Kimi and not just because he can put down some
> >>> > serious
> >>> booze.
> >>> >
> >>> > He's shown his incredible skill but the early season pace of the
> >>> > Lotus is gone.
> >>> >
> >>> > He does need to find a car (Lotus or not) that can perform...
> >>> >
> >>> > LS
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > central
> >>> > wines-spirits   est 1934
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > 625 e street nw
> >>> >
> >>> > washington, dc 20004
> >>> >
> >>> > centralwines.com
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > facebook.com/CentralLiquors
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > 202-737-2800
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > ________________________________
> >>> >  From: John Donahue <demongusta at me.com>
> >>> > To: LS <lashdeep at yahoo.com>
> >>> > Cc: DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> > Sent: Wednesday, July 3, 2013 12:56 PM
> >>> > Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] NPC: F1 Tire Failures
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > Kimi needs a car. He has milked the Lotus. Needs Webber's spot. Or
> >>> Mazza's.
> >>> >
> >>> > On Jul 3, 2013, at 9:51 AM, LS <lashdeep at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>> >
> >>> > > That was scary to watch last weekend!
> >>> > >
> >>> > > Not very comforting for a drive to know that his left rear could
> >>> > > go at
> >>> > anytime.
> >>> > >
> >>> > > LS
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > > central
> >>> > > wines-spirits   est 1934
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > > 625 e street nw
> >>> > >
> >>> > > washington, dc 20004
> >>> > >
> >>> > > centralwines.com
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > > facebook.com/CentralLiquors
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > > 202-737-2800
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > > ________________________________
> >>> > > From: "michael at michaelshortt.com" <michaelsavga at gmail.com>
> >>> > > To: "detomaso at poca.com" <detomaso at poca.com>
> >>> > > Sent: Wednesday, July 3, 2013 12:13 PM
> >>> > > Subject: [DeTomaso] NPC: F1 Tire Failures
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > > Looks like I have to eat crow, who knew ( apparently NOT EVEN THE
> >>> > > F1
> >>> > TEAMS,
> >>> > > for the first time is history that the tires were built
> >>> > > asymmetrically, ( Left side and Right side specific ), so when I
> >>> > > said otherwise, I was
> >>> > wrong,
> >>> > > but not alone.
> >>> > >
> >>> > > Here's the poop from Autoweek.
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > > Michael Shortt
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > > Pirelli releases statement regarding Silverstone tire failures
> >>> > > *Tire supplier says it is not to blame for failures*
> >>> > > By: Adam Cooper on July 2, 2013
> >>> > >
> >>> > >    -
> >>> > >    <
> >>> > http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20130702/F1/1307
> >>> > 099
> >>> > 60&template=XSendMail
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > > Pirelli has issued the following statement on what happened at
> >>> > > Silverstone<http://www.autoweek.com/article/20130701/F1/130709996
> >>> > > >
> >>> > > -- and what the company plans to do next. See our previous
> >>> > > stories for a summary.
> >>> > >
> >>> > > After exhaustive analysis of the tires used at Silverstone,
> >>> > > Pirelli has concluded that the causes of the failures were
> >>> > > principally down to a combination of the following factors:
> >>> > >
> >>> > > 1) Rear tires that were mounted the wrong way round: in other
> >>> > > words, the right hand tire being placed where the left hand one
> >>> > > should be and vice versa, on the cars that suffered failures. The
> >>> > > tires supplied this year have an asymmetric structure, which
> >>> > > means that they are not designed to
> >>> > be
> >>> > > interchangeable. The sidewalls are designed in such a way to deal
> >>> > > with specific loads on the internal and external sides of the tire.
> >>> > > So
> >>> > swapping
> >>> > > the tires round has an effect on how they work in certain
> >>> > > conditions. In particular, the external part is designed to cope
> >>> > > with the very high
> >>> > loads
> >>> > > that are generated while cornering at a circuit as demanding as
> >>> > > Silverstone, with its rapid left-hand bends and some kerbs that
> >>> > > are particularly aggressive.
> >>> > >
> >>> > > 2) The use of tire pressures that were excessively low or in any
> >>> > > case
> >>> > lower
> >>> > > than those indicated by Pirelli. Under-inflating the tires means
> >>> > > that the tire is subjected to more stressful working conditions.
> >>> > >
> >>> > > 3) The use of extreme camber angles.
> >>> > >
> >>> > > 4) Kerbing that was particularly aggressive on fast corners, such
> >>> > > as that on turn four at Silverstone, which was the scene of most
> >>> > > of the
> >>> failures.
> >>> > > Consequently it was the left-rear tires that were affected.
> >>> > >
> >>> > > The only problems that had come to light before Silverstone were
> >>> > > to do
> >>> > with
> >>> > > delamination, which was a completely different phenomenon. To
> >>> > > stop these delaminations Pirelli found a solution by suggesting
> >>> > > that the teams use
> >>> > the
> >>> > > tires that were tried out in Canada from Silverstone onwards.
> >>> > > When this proposal was not accepted, Pirelli found another
> >>> > > solution through laboratory testing, with a different bonding
> >>> > > process to attach the tread
> >>> > to
> >>> > > the carcass. So the problem of delamination has nothing at all to
> >>> > > do with what was seen in Great Britain.
> >>> > >
> >>> > > Following the conclusions of this analysis, Pirelli would like to
> >>> > underline
> >>> > > that:
> >>> > >
> >>> > > 1) Mounting the tires the wrong way round is a practice that was
> >>> > > nonetheless underestimated by everybody: above all Pirelli, which
> >>> > > did not forbid this.
> >>> > >
> >>> > > 2) In the same way, under-inflation of the tires and extreme
> >>> > > camber settings, over which Pirelli has no control, are choices
> >>> > > that can be dangerous under certain circumstances. Because of
> >>> > > this, Pirelli has asked the FIA for these parameters to be a
> >>> > > topic of accurate and future examinations. (Doesn’t make sense)
> >>> > > Pirelli has also asked for compliance with these rules to be
> >>> checked
> > by a dedicated delegate.
> >>> > >
> >>> > > 3) Pirelli would also like to underline that the 2013 tire range
> >>> > > does not compromise driver safety in any way if used in the
> >>> > > correct manner, and
> >>> > that
> >>> > > it meets all the safety standards requested by the FIA.
> >>> > >
> >>> > > The logical conclusion is that it is essential for tires with the
> >>> > > performance and technical sophistication of the 2013 range to be
> >>> > regulated
> >>> > > and carefully controlled by Pirelli itself. In order to ensure
> >>> > > the
> >>> > optimal
> >>> > > functioning of the tires, the Italian firm would need real-time
> >>> > > data from the teams regarding fundamental parameters such as
> >>> > > pressure, temperature and camber angles. While waiting for new
> >>> > > regulations that would permit Pirelli access to this data, vital
> >>> > > for the development and management of these state-of-the-art
> >>> > > tires, the following measures are proposed for the forthcoming
> >>> > > grands prix, in agreement with the FIA, FOM, the teams and
> >>> > the
> >>> > > drivers:
> >>> > >
> >>> > > 1) The use of the evolution of the current tire that was tested
> >>> > > in Canada (and proved to be completely reliable) for the German
> >>> > > Grand Prix this weekend. This represents the best match for the
> >>> > > technical characteristics of the Nürburgring circuit. In
> >>> > > particular, the rear tires that will be
> >>> > used
> >>> > > at the German Grand Prix, which takes place on July 7, have a
> >>> > > Kevlar construction that replaces the current steel structure and
> >>> > > the re-introduction of the 2012 belt, to ensure maximum stability
> >>> > > and roadholding. Given that these tires are asymmetric as well,
> >>> > > it will be strictly forbidden to swap them round. The front
> >>> > > tires, by contrast, will remain unaltered.
> >>> > >
> >>> > > 2) From the Hungarian Grand Prix onwards, the introduction of a
> >>> > > new range of tires. The new tires will have a symmetrical
> >>> > > structure, designed to guarantee maximum safety even without
> >>> > > access to tire data – which however is essential for the optimal
> >>> > > function of the more sophisticated 2013
> >>> > tires.
> >>> > > The tires that will be used for the Hungarian Grand Prix onwards
> >>> > > will combine the characteristics of the 2012 tires with the
> >>> > > performance of the
> >>> > > 2013 compounds. Essentially, the new tires will have a structure,
> >>> > > construction and belt identical to that of 2012, which ensured
> >>> > > maximum performance and safety. The compounds will be the same as
> >>> > > those used throughout 2013, which guaranteed faster lap times and
> >>> > > a wider working range. This new specification, as agreed with the
> >>> > > FIA, will be tested on-track together with the teams and their
> >>> > > 2013 cars at Silverstone from July 17-19 in a session with the
> >>> > > race drivers during the Young Driver
> >>> > Test.
> >>> > > These tests will contribute to the definitive development of the
> >>> > > new
> >>> > range
> >>> > > of tires, giving teams the opportunity to carry out the
> >>> > > appropriate
> >>> > set-up
> >>> > > work on their cars.
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > > Read more:
> >>> > > http://www.autoweek.com/article/20130702/f1/130709960#ixzz2Y01kYj
> >>> > > D8
> >>> > > Follow us: @AutoweekUSA on
> >>> > > Twitter<http://ec.tynt.com/b/rw?id=crYS7cwFer3QPQacn9QLBk&u=Autow
> >>> > > eek
> >>> > > USA>
> >>> > > | AutoweekUSA on
> >>> > > Facebook<http://ec.tynt.com/b/rf?id=crYS7cwFer3QPQacn9QLBk&u=Auto
> >>> > > wee
> >>> > > kUSA
> >>> > >
> >>> > > --
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > > Michael L. Shortt
> >>> > > Savannah, Georgia
> >>> > > www.michaelshortt.com
> >>> > > michael at michaelshortt.com
> >>> > > 912-232-9390
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > > This email is protected by the Electronic Communications Privacy
> >>> > > Act, 18 U.S.C. Sec. 2510-2521, is confidential and may be legally
> >>> > > privileged.  If you are not the intended recipient, you are
> >>> > > hereby
> >>> > notified
> >>> > > that any retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of
> >>> > > this communication is strictly prohibited.  Please reply to the
> >>> > > sender that
> >>> > you
> >>> > > have received this message in error, then delete it.  Thank you
> >>> > > _______________________________________________
> >>> > >
> >>> > > Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> >>> > >
> >>> > > DeTomaso mailing list
> >>> > > DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> > > http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> >>> > > _______________________________________________
> >>> > >
> >>> > > Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> >>> > >
> >>> > > DeTomaso mailing list
> >>> > > DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> > > http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> >>> > _______________________________________________
> >>> >
> >>> > Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> >>> >
> >>> > DeTomaso mailing list
> >>> > DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> > http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> >>> >
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Michael L. Shortt
> >>> Savannah, Georgia
> >>> www.michaelshortt.com
> >>> michael at michaelshortt.com
> >>> 912-232-9390
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> This email is protected by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act,
> >>> 18 U.S.C. Sec. 2510-2521, is confidential and may be legally
> >>> privileged.  If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby
> >>> notified that any retention, dissemination, distribution or copying
> >>> of this communication is strictly prohibited.  Please reply to the
> >>> sender that you have received this message in error, then delete it.
> >>> Thank you _______________________________________________
> >>>
> >>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> >>>
> >>> DeTomaso mailing list
> >>> DeTomaso at poca.com
> >>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Michael L. Shortt
> >> Savannah, Georgia
> >> www.michaelshortt.com
> >> michael at michaelshortt.com
> >> 912-232-9390
> >>
> >>
> >> This email is protected by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act,
> >> 18 U.S.C. Sec. 2510-2521, is confidential and may be legally
> >> privileged.  If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby
> >> notified that any retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of
> >> this communication is strictly prohibited.  Please reply to the sender
> >> that you have received this message in error, then delete it.  Thank
> >> you
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Michael L. Shortt
> > Savannah, Georgia
> > www.michaelshortt.com
> > michael at michaelshortt.com
> > 912-232-9390
> >
> >
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