[DeTomaso] NPC: Motor racing and fairness

Thu Jul 4 12:21:16 EDT 2013

Is that like steeplechase in the Human world?  Or a Triathalon?  I agree that it would be a new sector for car nuts.  --Bill

> Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2013 10:25:52 -0400
> From: michaelsavga at gmail.com
> To: mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
> CC: demongusta at me.com; detomaso at poca.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] NPC: Motor racing and fairness
> 
> Perhaps we should just make all forms an IROC style competition, oh
> nevermind, that is the current Indy car formula( same car, engine, tires).
> So you may have a point, now if it were only relevant, had attendance and
> any sizeable tv audience.
> 
> When I raced, I specifically chose a class with the thinnest rule book, C
> Sports,
> because aside from weight, displacement, overall size, and no moveable aero
> surfaces, there were essentially no other rules, leaving one free to have
> fun, engineer and build off the wall cars with any idea gou could imagine.
> Even then,  the stewards did their best to squash innovation. I built a V
> tail wing ( like a Bonaza airplane ) 23 years ago, and they wouldn't let me
> race with it ( not against any written rule ), just because the competition
> complained.
> This was decades before the Delta race car design and others that were used
> later ( and some before, mainly salt flats racers) and that was the turning
> point of taking the fun out of it for me.
> I wish that there was a series of racing that mixed all forms ( oval, road
> course, rally, hillclimb,  ) that had the following rulebook
> 1. You must use the same car in the same configuration for the entire
> series.
> 2. There are no other rules.
> 
> Now that would be fun.
> 
> Michael Shortt
> On Jul 4, 2013 10:01 AM, "Mikael" <mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk> wrote:
> 
> > Let me add my view on Schumacher. He won a lot, but...
> > In the Benetton days because they cheated. In 94 he deliberately crashed
> > into Hill to steal the championship in Australia. He then joined Ferrari
> > where everything was about him, and FIA has given Ferrari advantages in
> > strange decisions numerous times. Schumacher's latest Mercedes adventure
> > kind of sets the record straight...
> >
> > Where has fair motorsports gone to? F1 is Ferrari's to win, the Tifosis
> > rule, Nascar is a joke in this regard, even our beloved Le Mans where the
> > fast cars get weight penalties to ensure the show? Is Indycar fair at
> > least?
> >
> > Mikael
> > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
> > Fra: michael at michaelshortt.com [mailto:michaelsavga at gmail.com]
> > Sendt: 3. juli 2013 20:50
> > Til: Darryl Johnson
> > Cc: detomaso at poca.com; John Donahue
> > Emne: Re: [DeTomaso] NPC: F1 Tire Failures
> >
> > Let me also add Timo Glock to that list who bent over like a prison BIT$#
> > so
> > that Hamilton could win the F1 title instead of Massa who earned it and is
> > twice the man in character, honor and guts and Diaz will ever be.
> >
> > Michael
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 2:46 PM, michael at michaelshortt.com <
> > michaelsavga at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > If you have a teammate willing to crash his car into the bloody wall
> > > to ensure that you win, if your team leader is EXPELLED ( Flavio) from
> > > the sport forever for what he did to win those titles, if you are in
> > > the middle of a tech spy case that resulted in a  100 million dollar
> > > fine (McLaren), constantly whine like a little girl and pitch a hissy
> > > fit because your teammate is in front of you (FerrarI), no matter
> > > which team you are driving for,...
> > >
> > > "Alonzo is ah faster than you", Ferrari speak for "he can't pass you,
> > > please let him by"
> > >
> > > yeah, Alonzo's the man, if your definition is cheater, cry baby, and
> > > stool pigeon.
> > >
> > > maybe he can drive, but he lacks character and honor.
> > >
> > > I stand by my estimation of the little Philistine,
> > >
> > > Michael
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 2:41 PM, Darryl Johnson
> > <johnsondarr at hughes.net>wrote:
> > >
> > >> Wow, Michael. Your description of Fernando Alonso is a bit off in my
> > >> opinion and I believe stems mostly from he and Lewis's issues at
> > >> McLaren. At both Renault (two time world champion) and at Ferrari
> > >> Fernando is LOVED not just liked. When Fernando went to McLaren as
> > >> the current World Champion he was promised a certain level of support
> > >> and status as the No. 1 driver.
> > >> Instead
> > >> Lewis and Ron Dennis the Team principal at McLaren treated him as a
> > >> test driver and for the most part as second spot driver. Fernando's
> > >> response to that was as it should have been. He held his No. 1 status
> > >> as best he could under the circumstances and then left for Ferrari.
> > >> Ron Dennis was later demoted and removed from race operations at
> > >> McLaren. One reason among many was the loss of what most people in F1
> > >> believe is the best driver in the race.
> > >>
> > >> You and I can disagree on these points so let's use Racer Magazine's
> > >> poll of the 12 team principal's in Formula One for their opinion of
> > >> who is the "BEST DRIVER". Out of 12 teams Fernando Alonso was picked
> > >> by 10 teams as the best driver in F1. Last year with a middle of the
> > >> pack car he lost the championship by what 2 or 3 points (forgot and
> > >> didn't look this up)?
> > >>
> > >> I agree Kimi is great! He is the ICEMAN and drives with great skill
> > >> and nerves of steel. But what most people like is his attitude.
> > >> Summed up by his response to the question of what would happen if he
> > >> couldn't race in F1....
> > >> "there's lots of things to do besides F1"! This comment was made even
> > >> more contrasting to the other drivers who were panicking about where
> > >> and who they could drive for in the upcoming seasons.
> > >>
> > >> But remember when Fernando was with Renault (now Lotus) he won the F1
> > >> championship twice. At a time when Mickael Schumacher and Ferrari
> > >> were almost invincible. Kimi has yet to do that at Lotus (Renault)
> > >> however he is a F1 World Champion. Right now the F1 championship is a
> > >> race between Vettel and you guessed it Fernando Alonso who has a
> > >> clearly inferior car. Both have a DNF due to failures.
> > >>
> > >> Just to keep it real.
> > >>
> > >> Darryl
> > >>
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: detomaso-bounces at poca.com [mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com] On
> > >> Behalf Of michael at michaelshortt.com
> > >> Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2013 10:25 AM
> > >> To: LS
> > >> Cc: John Donahue; DeTomaso at poca.com
> > >> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] NPC: F1 Tire Failures
> > >>
> > >> Kimi is my fav driver, he should have been a multiple time world
> > >> champion, he was so screwed during his time at McLaren, he developed
> > >> that bcar for the success that followed, much the same way that
> > >> Schumacher did at MB for their success this year.
> > >>
> > >> I can't stand Diaz ( Alonzo's real name), cry baby, cheater, and
> > >> stool pigeon.
> > >>
> > >> Michael
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 1:20 PM, LS <lashdeep at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > I really like Kimi and not just because he can put down some
> > >> > serious
> > >> booze.
> > >> >
> > >> > He's shown his incredible skill but the early season pace of the
> > >> > Lotus is gone.
> > >> >
> > >> > He does need to find a car (Lotus or not) that can perform...
> > >> >
> > >> > LS
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > central
> > >> > wines-spirits   est 1934
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > 625 e street nw
> > >> >
> > >> > washington, dc 20004
> > >> >
> > >> > centralwines.com
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > facebook.com/CentralLiquors
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > 202-737-2800
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > ________________________________
> > >> >  From: John Donahue <demongusta at me.com>
> > >> > To: LS <lashdeep at yahoo.com>
> > >> > Cc: DeTomaso at poca.com
> > >> > Sent: Wednesday, July 3, 2013 12:56 PM
> > >> > Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] NPC: F1 Tire Failures
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > Kimi needs a car. He has milked the Lotus. Needs Webber's spot. Or
> > >> Mazza's.
> > >> >
> > >> > On Jul 3, 2013, at 9:51 AM, LS <lashdeep at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > > That was scary to watch last weekend!
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Not very comforting for a drive to know that his left rear could
> > >> > > go at
> > >> > anytime.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > LS
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > central
> > >> > > wines-spirits   est 1934
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > 625 e street nw
> > >> > >
> > >> > > washington, dc 20004
> > >> > >
> > >> > > centralwines.com
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > facebook.com/CentralLiquors
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > 202-737-2800
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > ________________________________
> > >> > > From: "michael at michaelshortt.com" <michaelsavga at gmail.com>
> > >> > > To: "detomaso at poca.com" <detomaso at poca.com>
> > >> > > Sent: Wednesday, July 3, 2013 12:13 PM
> > >> > > Subject: [DeTomaso] NPC: F1 Tire Failures
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Looks like I have to eat crow, who knew ( apparently NOT EVEN THE
> > >> > > F1
> > >> > TEAMS,
> > >> > > for the first time is history that the tires were built
> > >> > > asymmetrically, ( Left side and Right side specific ), so when I
> > >> > > said otherwise, I was
> > >> > wrong,
> > >> > > but not alone.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Here's the poop from Autoweek.
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Michael Shortt
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Pirelli releases statement regarding Silverstone tire failures
> > >> > > *Tire supplier says it is not to blame for failures*
> > >> > > By: Adam Cooper on July 2, 2013
> > >> > >
> > >> > >    -
> > >> > >    <
> > >> > http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20130702/F1/1307
> > >> > 099
> > >> > 60&template=XSendMail
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Pirelli has issued the following statement on what happened at
> > >> > > Silverstone<http://www.autoweek.com/article/20130701/F1/130709996
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > -- and what the company plans to do next. See our previous
> > >> > > stories for a summary.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > After exhaustive analysis of the tires used at Silverstone,
> > >> > > Pirelli has concluded that the causes of the failures were
> > >> > > principally down to a combination of the following factors:
> > >> > >
> > >> > > 1) Rear tires that were mounted the wrong way round: in other
> > >> > > words, the right hand tire being placed where the left hand one
> > >> > > should be and vice versa, on the cars that suffered failures. The
> > >> > > tires supplied this year have an asymmetric structure, which
> > >> > > means that they are not designed to
> > >> > be
> > >> > > interchangeable. The sidewalls are designed in such a way to deal
> > >> > > with specific loads on the internal and external sides of the tire.
> > >> > > So
> > >> > swapping
> > >> > > the tires round has an effect on how they work in certain
> > >> > > conditions. In particular, the external part is designed to cope
> > >> > > with the very high
> > >> > loads
> > >> > > that are generated while cornering at a circuit as demanding as
> > >> > > Silverstone, with its rapid left-hand bends and some kerbs that
> > >> > > are particularly aggressive.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > 2) The use of tire pressures that were excessively low or in any
> > >> > > case
> > >> > lower
> > >> > > than those indicated by Pirelli. Under-inflating the tires means
> > >> > > that the tire is subjected to more stressful working conditions.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > 3) The use of extreme camber angles.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > 4) Kerbing that was particularly aggressive on fast corners, such
> > >> > > as that on turn four at Silverstone, which was the scene of most
> > >> > > of the
> > >> failures.
> > >> > > Consequently it was the left-rear tires that were affected.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > The only problems that had come to light before Silverstone were
> > >> > > to do
> > >> > with
> > >> > > delamination, which was a completely different phenomenon. To
> > >> > > stop these delaminations Pirelli found a solution by suggesting
> > >> > > that the teams use
> > >> > the
> > >> > > tires that were tried out in Canada from Silverstone onwards.
> > >> > > When this proposal was not accepted, Pirelli found another
> > >> > > solution through laboratory testing, with a different bonding
> > >> > > process to attach the tread
> > >> > to
> > >> > > the carcass. So the problem of delamination has nothing at all to
> > >> > > do with what was seen in Great Britain.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Following the conclusions of this analysis, Pirelli would like to
> > >> > underline
> > >> > > that:
> > >> > >
> > >> > > 1) Mounting the tires the wrong way round is a practice that was
> > >> > > nonetheless underestimated by everybody: above all Pirelli, which
> > >> > > did not forbid this.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > 2) In the same way, under-inflation of the tires and extreme
> > >> > > camber settings, over which Pirelli has no control, are choices
> > >> > > that can be dangerous under certain circumstances. Because of
> > >> > > this, Pirelli has asked the FIA for these parameters to be a
> > >> > > topic of accurate and future examinations. (Doesn’t make sense)
> > >> > > Pirelli has also asked for compliance with these rules to be checked
> > by a dedicated delegate.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > 3) Pirelli would also like to underline that the 2013 tire range
> > >> > > does not compromise driver safety in any way if used in the
> > >> > > correct manner, and
> > >> > that
> > >> > > it meets all the safety standards requested by the FIA.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > The logical conclusion is that it is essential for tires with the
> > >> > > performance and technical sophistication of the 2013 range to be
> > >> > regulated
> > >> > > and carefully controlled by Pirelli itself. In order to ensure
> > >> > > the
> > >> > optimal
> > >> > > functioning of the tires, the Italian firm would need real-time
> > >> > > data from the teams regarding fundamental parameters such as
> > >> > > pressure, temperature and camber angles. While waiting for new
> > >> > > regulations that would permit Pirelli access to this data, vital
> > >> > > for the development and management of these state-of-the-art
> > >> > > tires, the following measures are proposed for the forthcoming
> > >> > > grands prix, in agreement with the FIA, FOM, the teams and
> > >> > the
> > >> > > drivers:
> > >> > >
> > >> > > 1) The use of the evolution of the current tire that was tested
> > >> > > in Canada (and proved to be completely reliable) for the German
> > >> > > Grand Prix this weekend. This represents the best match for the
> > >> > > technical characteristics of the Nürburgring circuit. In
> > >> > > particular, the rear tires that will be
> > >> > used
> > >> > > at the German Grand Prix, which takes place on July 7, have a
> > >> > > Kevlar construction that replaces the current steel structure and
> > >> > > the re-introduction of the 2012 belt, to ensure maximum stability
> > >> > > and roadholding. Given that these tires are asymmetric as well,
> > >> > > it will be strictly forbidden to swap them round. The front
> > >> > > tires, by contrast, will remain unaltered.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > 2) From the Hungarian Grand Prix onwards, the introduction of a
> > >> > > new range of tires. The new tires will have a symmetrical
> > >> > > structure, designed to guarantee maximum safety even without
> > >> > > access to tire data – which however is essential for the optimal
> > >> > > function of the more sophisticated 2013
> > >> > tires.
> > >> > > The tires that will be used for the Hungarian Grand Prix onwards
> > >> > > will combine the characteristics of the 2012 tires with the
> > >> > > performance of the
> > >> > > 2013 compounds. Essentially, the new tires will have a structure,
> > >> > > construction and belt identical to that of 2012, which ensured
> > >> > > maximum performance and safety. The compounds will be the same as
> > >> > > those used throughout 2013, which guaranteed faster lap times and
> > >> > > a wider working range. This new specification, as agreed with the
> > >> > > FIA, will be tested on-track together with the teams and their
> > >> > > 2013 cars at Silverstone from July 17-19 in a session with the
> > >> > > race drivers during the Young Driver
> > >> > Test.
> > >> > > These tests will contribute to the definitive development of the
> > >> > > new
> > >> > range
> > >> > > of tires, giving teams the opportunity to carry out the
> > >> > > appropriate
> > >> > set-up
> > >> > > work on their cars.
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Read more:
> > >> > > http://www.autoweek.com/article/20130702/f1/130709960#ixzz2Y01kYj
> > >> > > D8
> > >> > > Follow us: @AutoweekUSA on
> > >> > > Twitter<http://ec.tynt.com/b/rw?id=crYS7cwFer3QPQacn9QLBk&u=Autow
> > >> > > eek
> > >> > > USA>
> > >> > > | AutoweekUSA on
> > >> > > Facebook<http://ec.tynt.com/b/rf?id=crYS7cwFer3QPQacn9QLBk&u=Auto
> > >> > > wee
> > >> > > kUSA
> > >> > >
> > >> > > --
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Michael L. Shortt
> > >> > > Savannah, Georgia
> > >> > > www.michaelshortt.com
> > >> > > michael at michaelshortt.com
> > >> > > 912-232-9390
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > This email is protected by the Electronic Communications Privacy
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> > >> > > sender that
> > >> > you
> > >> > > have received this message in error, then delete it.  Thank you
> > >> > > _______________________________________________
> > >> > >
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> > >> > >
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> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Michael L. Shortt
> > >> Savannah, Georgia
> > >> www.michaelshortt.com
> > >> michael at michaelshortt.com
> > >> 912-232-9390
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> This email is protected by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act,
> > >> 18 U.S.C. Sec. 2510-2521, is confidential and may be legally
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> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Michael L. Shortt
> > > Savannah, Georgia
> > > www.michaelshortt.com
> > > michael at michaelshortt.com
> > > 912-232-9390
> > >
> > >
> > > This email is protected by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act,
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> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Michael L. Shortt
> > Savannah, Georgia
> > www.michaelshortt.com
> > michael at michaelshortt.com
> > 912-232-9390
> >
> >
> > This email is protected by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18
> > U.S.C. Sec. 2510-2521, is confidential and may be legally privileged.  If
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