[DeTomaso] Ethanol "enriched" (diluted) fuel

Mon Jan 14 14:18:57 EST 2013

I have a Holley DP750 without any problems for 8+ years & it was on the car for several years before I became the caretaker. I never diesel or ping on premium 92 octane. Once I pumped Regular, by mistake, still no ping or diesel.

 It was pretty cantankerous when it was cold until 3 years ago. Found a good tuner for the carb. Big turnaround. I no longer have to feather the throttle on cold starts. I am happy with the performance.
IndyDave

-----Original Message-----
From: michael at michaelshortt.com [mailto:michaelsavga at gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2013 8:06 PM
To: Greg Landwehr
Cc: detomaso at poca.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Ethanol "enriched" (diluted) fuel

I also hsve an AL tank in 1660. I haven't had any failures directly attributable to the ethanol added gas, but I only had about 4 years on the old Holley DP750 and 3 years so far on the QFT SS830 ( although I have gone through two power valves in the QFT ) and I use all aeroquip lines and AN fittings, so it's fairly durable.
What I do get, even with Prem Gas (93 Octane) with 10% Ethanol is lots of dieseling at shutdown and some pinging. I always add a full bottle of Octane Booster ( Lucas) with each full tank. It also gets about 15% less mpg than when I use Boat Gas ( also with Octane Booster ).
I also did back to back comparisions withe the Hemi Magnum R/T and the cost vs mileage increase was a wash Within a % or so of being dead even.  The throttle response and overall performance was absolutely better with pure gas.

Michael
On Jan 13, 2013 7:44 PM, "pantera928" <pantera928 at bellsouth.net> wrote:

> Michael
> I live in Georgia also and basically know and agree with items 1 thru
> 7 and also think Panteras look best in yellow but my question was
> designed more towards anyones particular experience with thir Panteras
> and Ethanol related failures and problems . I particularly mentioned
> my aluminum gas tank and it's compatibility with ethanol polluted
> gasoline.
> Thanks for the feedback
> Greg
>
> --- On *Sun, 1/13/13, michael at michaelshortt.com <michaelsavga at gmail.com>*wrote:
>
>
> From: michael at michaelshortt.com <michaelsavga at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Ethanol "enriched" (diluted) fuel
> To: "Greg Landwehr" <pantera928 at bellsouth.net>
> Cc: detomaso at poca.com
> Date: Sunday, January 13, 2013, 3:31 PM
>
>  Not pissed, i just think we have beat this topic to death.
>
> Where I live in Georgia, we can buy e85, 99% of all gas sold here is
> at least 10% ethanol.  We can also buy Pure gas in selected locations.
>
> Everyone and science agrees that
>
> 1) it isn't as good as gas
> 2) it is expensive to produce
> 3) it causes the price of people food and cattle feed to be much more
> 4) it has a much shorter shelf life
> 5) in cars not designed specifically to handle it, it causes damage to
> the fuel systems.
>
> Some agree
>
> 6) it's a BS Govt program to enrich
>      A select few.
> 7) it takes more energy to produce a gallon of it than the actual
> energy potential in a gallon of it.
>
> So I think we're just ready to move on in general
>
> Michael Shortt
>
> Here are some convo starters
>
> And all Panteras look better in Yellow Cleveland Engines with Carbs
> are Best.
> 15" wheels are relics of the past
> Delta wings make awesome picnic tables On Jan 13, 2013 3:11 PM,
> "pantera928"
> <pantera928 at bellsouth.net<http://us.mc1850.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?t
> o=pantera928 at bellsouth.net>>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> I sent out an email yesterday asking about experiences with using e-10
> and
> e-15 under the tile of "Ethanol gasoline" but have not received one
> response. Did you get it? I continue to see the topics of how much is
> costs to make ethanol, how it lowers octane and how a car senses
> ethanol debated under this thread so I know the list is active. I
> guess either my email did not get received or everyone runs pure gas
> and has never had an ethanol related failure or maybe, I have somehow pissed off everyone on this list.
> Comments?
>
> --- On Sun, 1/13/13, Tomas Gunnarsson
> <guson at home.se<http://us.mc1850.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=guson@hom
> e.se>>
> wrote:
>
>
> From: Tomas Gunnarsson
> <guson at home.se<http://us.mc1850.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=guson@hom
> e.se>
> >
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Ethanol "enriched" (diluted) fuel
> To:
> rgg at gregorycook.com<http://us.mc1850.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rgg@
> gregorycook.com>
> Cc:
> detomaso at poca.com<http://us.mc1850.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=detoma
> so at poca.com>
> Date: Sunday, January 13, 2013, 1:30 PM
>
>
> The flexifuel cars sold here do handle anything. You can fill up with
> straight gas or E85 regardless of what is in the tank before and how
> much is left in the tank of the old fuel.
>
> Tomas
>
> <-----Ursprungligt Meddelande----->
> From: Gray Gregory
> [rgg at gregorycook.com<http://us.mc1850.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rgg
> @gregorycook.com>
> ]
> Sent: 13/1/2013 5:45:59 PM
> To: Tomas Gunnarsson;
> spkorb at gmail.com<http://us.mc1850.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=spkorb@
> gmail.com>
> Cc:
> detomaso at poca.com<http://us.mc1850.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=detoma
> so at poca.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Ethanol "enriched" (diluted) fuel
>
> I wouldn't assume the flex fuel sys can handle anything from 0 to 85%
> ethanol. I don't know but since there is no option that I'm aware of
> to buy say E-50 it's more likely just be an either or program. Here in
> the states virtually all of our "standard" gasoline is E-10 these
> days. The only other available ethanol blend I've ever seen sold is
> the E-85. Of course if you mixed part tank of one w/ a part tank of
> the other I guess you could get something in the middle so maybe I'm all wrong there....
> As far as how it knows what you filled up with I have no idea, but
> might it just be as simple as measuring the weight of the fuel??
>
> Gray
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: detomaso-bounces at poca.com<http://us.mc1850.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=detomaso-bounces@poca.com>[mailto:
> detomaso-bounces at poca.com<http://us.mc1850.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?t
> o=detomaso-bounces at poca.com>]
> On
> Behalf Of Tomas Gunnarsson
> Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2013 10:06 AM
> To:
> spkorb at gmail.com<http://us.mc1850.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=spkorb@
> gmail.com>
> Cc:
> detomaso at poca.com<http://us.mc1850.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=detoma
> so at poca.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Ethanol "enriched" (diluted) fuel
>
> If a flexifuel car can use anything from 0 to 85% E it seems more
> likely that you simply have a more flexible table or whatever it is to
> cope with all situations. My thinking...
>
> Tomas
>
> <-----Ursprungligt Meddelande----->
> From: Sean Korb
> [spkorb at gmail.com<http://us.mc1850.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=spkorb
> @gmail.com>
> ]
> Sent: 13/1/2013 3:50:02 PM
> To:
> detomaso at poca.com<http://us.mc1850.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=detoma
> so at poca.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Ethanol "enriched" (diluted) fuel
>
> I thought so to, but you have to know *which* closed loop system to
> measure and calculate new tables. Ethanol only needs 9 parts oxygen
> for stoch (why it takes more ethanol than gasoline for the same
> volumetric
> power) and gasoline needs 12. I think diesel takes 18 so now
> everybody's going to want to put a Powerstroke in their Pantera ;)
> Even a wideband
> O2 sensor is going to be *way* off when you go that far lean or that
> far rich. Putting a lot of ethanol in the tank will be quite a shock
> to any EFI system unless you give it a hint.
>
> Honestly though, I'm just spitballing.
>
> sean
>
> On Sun, Jan 13, 2013 at 4:49 AM, Tomas Gunnarsson
> <guson at home.se<http://us.mc1850.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=guson@hom
> e.se>>
> wrote:
> > Isn't it as easy as letting the closed loop regulation adapt the
> richness of
> > the combustion process? I understand that it may be quicker to
> > detect
> what's
> > going into the process but eventually the analysis of the output
> (exhaust)
> > will make the system adjust to the same result out.
> >
> > Tomas
> >
> > <-----Ursprungligt Meddelande----->
> > From: Will Kooiman
> > [will.kooiman at gmail.com<http://us.mc1850.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?t
> > o=will.kooiman at gmail.com>
> ]
> > Sent: 13/1/2013 3:11:05 AM
> > To:
> > spkorb at gmail.com<http://us.mc1850.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=spkor
> > b at gmail.com>;
> detomaso at poca.com<http://us.mc1850.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=detoma
> so at poca.com>
> > Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Ethanol "enriched" (diluted) fuel
> >
> > Well said. Choice is part of what makes the free market system work.
> And
> > that means choice on a level playing ground too, where one choice is
> not
> > heavily subsidized over another.
> >
> > I had a friend tell me recently that the fuel economy is much worse
> when
> > he burns E85 in his flex fuel vehicle (Ford, but I forgot the model).
> His
> > explanation was that the computer recognized the higher alcohol
> content,
> > so it over adjusted. I'm not saying his analysis is right or wrong.
> I'm
> > just repeating what he said. It at least sounds reasonable.
> >
> > Does anyone know how flex fuel vehicles "know" the alcohol content?
> I'm
> > assuming there is a sensor in the tank, but how would it work?
> Specific
> > gravity? I guess I could google it.
> >
> > On 1/12/13 6:19 PM, "Sean Korb"
> > <spkorb at gmail.com<http://us.mc1850.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=spko
> > rb at gmail.com>>
> wrote:
> >
> >>I work for a major international agriculture seed and chemical
> >>supplier concern. Ethanol production has a very significant impact
> >>on our bottom line and we provide a number of attractive products
> >>making a lot of progress to get the BTU tradeoff near unity. Invest
> >>in us since our stock price only seems to rise so our shareholders
> >>are pretty happy with this. The future in this space is pretty
> >>bright indeed and the technology is quite exciting.
> >>
> >>But it's getting very very hard for me to fine 100% gasoline in my
> >>area and almost all my cars and lawn implements are negatively
> >>impacted by this (my rubber hoses and O rings have turned to goo).
> >>What I would *really* like is choice and then we could make educated
> >>purchases in fuel markets.
> >>
> >>sean
> >>
> >>On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 1:41 PM, Jerry Knotts
> >><knottsj at galstar.com<http://us.mc1850.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=k
> >>nottsj at galstar.com>
> >
> wrote:
> >>> Being a farmer I appreciate everything the government does in the
> farm
> >>> subsidy area. Being a driver not so much so.
> >>>
> >>> My grocery getter gets 8 percent less mileage on Ethanol blended
> >>> 10 percent. Everything else I have is using diesel, gasoline, or
> Propane.
> >>> 131,000 Btu are needed to make 1 gallon of ethanol. One gallon of
> >>> ethanol has an energy value of only 77,000 Btu. Every time you
> >>> make
> 1
> >>> gallon of ethanol, there is a net energy loss of 54,000 Btu.
> >>>
> >>> Government subsidies lower the price artificially. Government
> subsidies
> >>> represent about $4.18 per gallon. The 131,00 BTUs used are from
> >>> oil and it uses about 1/50th of an acre of corn (on a good year)
> >>> to
> produce
> >>> a gallon of Ethanol. Corn is hard on the ground and require a high
> >>> input of fertilizer. Nitrogen fertilizers, herbicides and
> >>> pesticides are all made from fossil fuels, as is the diesel fuel,
> >>> gasoline,
> LPG,
> >>> natural gas, electricity, transportation and irrigation used to
> >>> grow
> and
> >>> transport the corn. Water input is also high but it is either
> provided
> >>> naturally or not, in my case I can't afford irrigation.
> >>>
> >>> If I was still actively farming I would stop growing grass for
> cattle
> >>> and start growing corn for cars.
> >>>
> >>> To late smarter,
> >>> jerry knotts
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 1/10/2013 11:28 AM, Dick Koch wrote:
> >>>> Roland, even with the diverse opinions on the affects of Ethanol
> >>>>on pre-ethanol diluted fuel vehicles and equipment, I know we all
> >>>>can agree that the price of Frito's has increased with the
> >>>>increased use of
> corn
> >>>> based ethanol.
> >>>>
> >>>> Dick Koch - Atlanta
> >>>> On 1/10/2013 11:37 AM, Roland Jaeckel wrote:
> >>>>> We have 10 percent Ethanol over here without any issues in any
> car.
> >>>>> I think the swedes have up to 85 percent.
> >>>>> Roland Jaeckel
> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dick Koch"
> <arkoch at earthlink.net<http://us.mc1850.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=ar
> koch at earthlink.net>
> >
> >>>>> To:
> >>>>> <detomaso at poca.com<http://us.mc1850.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to
> >>>>> =detomaso at poca.com>
> >
> >>>>> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 5:13 PM
> >>>>> Subject: [DeTomaso] Ethanol "enriched" (diluted) fuel
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> While the use of Ethanol diluted fuel has been discussed
> >>>>>>before, folks may be interested in viewing this video on the use
> >>>>>>of the Ethanol "enriched" fuel being pushed by the EPA.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> http://video.foxbusiness.com/v/2000862202001/
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> From my standpoint, I would not use any Ethanol enriched fuel,
> not
> >>>>>>only
> >>>>>> in my Pantera, but any car or other equipment, such as
> >>>>>>generators
> or
> >>>>>> lawn equipment. A couple of web sites I use to identify Ethanol
> free
> >>>>>> fuel are:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> http://pure-gas.org/
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=air.htapps.ethanol
> >>>>>>fr
> eega
> >>>>>>s&hl=en
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Dick Koch
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
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> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>--
> >>Sean Korb
> >>spkorb at spkorb.org<http://us.mc1850.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=spko
> >>rb at spkorb.org>
> http://www.spkorb.org
> <http://www.spkorb.org/>
> <http://www.spkorb.org/>
> >>'65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 Pantera
> #1382
> >>"The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
> >>"Computers are useless. They can only give you answers." -P. Picasso
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>
> >>Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
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>
>
> --
> Sean Korb
> spkorb at spkorb.org<http://us.mc1850.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=spkorb
> @spkorb.org>
> http://www.spkorb.org
> <http://www.spkorb.org/>  <http://www.spkorb.org/>
> '65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 Pantera
> #1382
> "The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller "Computers
> are useless. They can only give you answers." -P. Picasso
> _______________________________________________
>
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