[DeTomaso] Ethanol "enriched" (diluted) fuel

Dave dave at damardirect.com
Mon Jan 14 14:07:15 EST 2013 

We should trade a bushel of grain for a barrel of oil.
Or, let them eat sand. I remember seeing gasoline is 5-7 cents a gallon over there.
IndyDave

-----Original Message-----
From: gow2 at rc-tech.net [mailto:gow2 at rc-tech.net] 
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2013 3:39 PM
To: michael at michaelshortt.com
Cc: detomaso at poca.com; Greg Landwehr
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Ethanol "enriched" (diluted) fuel

Grain from our country is as oil is from Saudi Arabia. Government involvement in the whole thing messes up a lot of things.





> Not pissed, i just think we have beat this topic to death.
>
> Where I live in Georgia, we can buy e85, 99% of all gas sold here is 
> at least 10% ethanol.  We can also buy Pure gas in selected locations.
>
> Everyone and science agrees that
>
> 1) it isn't as good as gas
> 2) it is expensive to produce
> 3) it causes the price of people food and cattle feed to be much more
> 4) it has a much shorter shelf life
> 5) in cars not designed specifically to handle it, it causes damage to 
> the fuel systems.
>
> Some agree
>
> 6) it's a BS Govt program to enrich
>      A select few.
> 7) it takes more energy to produce a gallon of it than the actual 
> energy potential in a gallon of it.
>
> So I think we're just ready to move on in general
>
> Michael Shortt
>
> Here are some convo starters
>
> And all Panteras look better in Yellow Cleveland Engines with Carbs 
> are Best.
> 15" wheels are relics of the past
> Delta wings make awesome picnic tables On Jan 13, 2013 3:11 PM, 
> "pantera928" <pantera928 at bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I sent out an email yesterday asking about experiences with using 
>> e-10 and
>> e-15 under the tile of "Ethanol gasoline" but have not received one 
>> response. Did you get it? I continue to see the topics of how much is 
>> costs to make ethanol, how it lowers octane and how a car senses 
>> ethanol debated under this thread so I know the list is active. I 
>> guess either my email did not get received or everyone runs pure gas 
>> and has never had an ethanol related failure or maybe, I have somehow 
>> pissed off everyone on this list.
>> Comments?
>>
>> --- On Sun, 1/13/13, Tomas Gunnarsson <guson at home.se> wrote:
>>
>>
>> From: Tomas Gunnarsson <guson at home.se>
>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Ethanol "enriched" (diluted) fuel
>> To: rgg at gregorycook.com
>> Cc: detomaso at poca.com
>> Date: Sunday, January 13, 2013, 1:30 PM
>>
>>
>> The flexifuel cars sold here do handle anything. You can fill up with 
>> straight gas or E85 regardless of what is in the tank before and how 
>> much is left in the tank of the old fuel.
>>
>> Tomas
>>
>> <-----Ursprungligt Meddelande----->
>> From: Gray Gregory [rgg at gregorycook.com]
>> Sent: 13/1/2013 5:45:59 PM
>> To: Tomas Gunnarsson; spkorb at gmail.com
>> Cc: detomaso at poca.com
>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Ethanol "enriched" (diluted) fuel
>>
>> I wouldn't assume the flex fuel sys can handle anything from 0 to 85% 
>> ethanol. I don't know but since there is no option that I'm aware of 
>> to buy say E-50 it's more likely just be an either or program. Here 
>> in the states virtually all of our "standard" gasoline is E-10 these 
>> days. The only other available ethanol blend I've ever seen sold is 
>> the E-85. Of course if you mixed part tank of one w/ a part tank of 
>> the other I guess you could get something in the middle so maybe I'm all wrong there....
>> As far as how it knows what you filled up with I have no idea, but 
>> might it just be as simple as measuring the weight of the fuel??
>>
>> Gray
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: detomaso-bounces at poca.com [mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com] On 
>> Behalf Of Tomas Gunnarsson
>> Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2013 10:06 AM
>> To: spkorb at gmail.com
>> Cc: detomaso at poca.com
>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Ethanol "enriched" (diluted) fuel
>>
>> If a flexifuel car can use anything from 0 to 85% E it seems more 
>> likely that you simply have a more flexible table or whatever it is 
>> to cope with all situations. My thinking...
>>
>> Tomas
>>
>> <-----Ursprungligt Meddelande----->
>> From: Sean Korb [spkorb at gmail.com]
>> Sent: 13/1/2013 3:50:02 PM
>> To: detomaso at poca.com
>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Ethanol "enriched" (diluted) fuel
>>
>> I thought so to, but you have to know *which* closed loop system to 
>> measure and calculate new tables. Ethanol only needs 9 parts oxygen 
>> for stoch (why it takes more ethanol than gasoline for the same 
>> volumetric
>> power) and gasoline needs 12. I think diesel takes 18 so now 
>> everybody's going to want to put a Powerstroke in their Pantera ;) 
>> Even a wideband
>> O2 sensor is going to be *way* off when you go that far lean or that 
>> far rich. Putting a lot of ethanol in the tank will be quite a shock 
>> to any EFI system unless you give it a hint.
>>
>> Honestly though, I'm just spitballing.
>>
>> sean
>>
>> On Sun, Jan 13, 2013 at 4:49 AM, Tomas Gunnarsson <guson at home.se> wrote:
>> > Isn't it as easy as letting the closed loop regulation adapt the
>> richness of
>> > the combustion process? I understand that it may be quicker to 
>> > detect
>> what's
>> > going into the process but eventually the analysis of the output
>> (exhaust)
>> > will make the system adjust to the same result out.
>> >
>> > Tomas
>> >
>> > <-----Ursprungligt Meddelande----->
>> > From: Will Kooiman [will.kooiman at gmail.com]
>> > Sent: 13/1/2013 3:11:05 AM
>> > To: spkorb at gmail.com; detomaso at poca.com
>> > Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Ethanol "enriched" (diluted) fuel
>> >
>> > Well said. Choice is part of what makes the free market system work.
>> And
>> > that means choice on a level playing ground too, where one choice 
>> > is
>> not
>> > heavily subsidized over another.
>> >
>> > I had a friend tell me recently that the fuel economy is much worse
>> when
>> > he burns E85 in his flex fuel vehicle (Ford, but I forgot the model).
>> His
>> > explanation was that the computer recognized the higher alcohol
>> content,
>> > so it over adjusted. I'm not saying his analysis is right or wrong.
>> I'm
>> > just repeating what he said. It at least sounds reasonable.
>> >
>> > Does anyone know how flex fuel vehicles "know" the alcohol content?
>> I'm
>> > assuming there is a sensor in the tank, but how would it work?
>> Specific
>> > gravity? I guess I could google it.
>> >
>> > On 1/12/13 6:19 PM, "Sean Korb" <spkorb at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >>I work for a major international agriculture seed and chemical 
>> >>supplier concern. Ethanol production has a very significant impact 
>> >>on our bottom line and we provide a number of attractive products 
>> >>making a lot of progress to get the BTU tradeoff near unity. Invest 
>> >>in us since our stock price only seems to rise so our shareholders 
>> >>are pretty happy with this. The future in this space is pretty 
>> >>bright indeed and the technology is quite exciting.
>> >>
>> >>But it's getting very very hard for me to fine 100% gasoline in my 
>> >>area and almost all my cars and lawn implements are negatively 
>> >>impacted by this (my rubber hoses and O rings have turned to goo).
>> >>What I would *really* like is choice and then we could make 
>> >>educated purchases in fuel markets.
>> >>
>> >>sean
>> >>
>> >>On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 1:41 PM, Jerry Knotts <knottsj at galstar.com>
>> wrote:
>> >>> Being a farmer I appreciate everything the government does in the
>> farm
>> >>> subsidy area. Being a driver not so much so.
>> >>>
>> >>> My grocery getter gets 8 percent less mileage on Ethanol blended 
>> >>> 10 percent. Everything else I have is using diesel, gasoline, or
>> Propane.
>> >>> 131,000 Btu are needed to make 1 gallon of ethanol. One gallon of 
>> >>> ethanol has an energy value of only 77,000 Btu. Every time you 
>> >>> make
>> 1
>> >>> gallon of ethanol, there is a net energy loss of 54,000 Btu.
>> >>>
>> >>> Government subsidies lower the price artificially. Government
>> subsidies
>> >>> represent about $4.18 per gallon. The 131,00 BTUs used are from 
>> >>> oil and it uses about 1/50th of an acre of corn (on a good year) 
>> >>> to
>> produce
>> >>> a gallon of Ethanol. Corn is hard on the ground and require a 
>> >>> high input of fertilizer. Nitrogen fertilizers, herbicides and 
>> >>> pesticides are all made from fossil fuels, as is the diesel fuel, 
>> >>> gasoline,
>> LPG,
>> >>> natural gas, electricity, transportation and irrigation used to 
>> >>> grow
>> and
>> >>> transport the corn. Water input is also high but it is either
>> provided
>> >>> naturally or not, in my case I can't afford irrigation.
>> >>>
>> >>> If I was still actively farming I would stop growing grass for
>> cattle
>> >>> and start growing corn for cars.
>> >>>
>> >>> To late smarter,
>> >>> jerry knotts
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On 1/10/2013 11:28 AM, Dick Koch wrote:
>> >>>> Roland, even with the diverse opinions on the affects of Ethanol 
>> >>>>on pre-ethanol diluted fuel vehicles and equipment, I know we all 
>> >>>>can agree that the price of Frito's has increased with the 
>> >>>>increased use of
>> corn
>> >>>> based ethanol.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Dick Koch - Atlanta
>> >>>> On 1/10/2013 11:37 AM, Roland Jaeckel wrote:
>> >>>>> We have 10 percent Ethanol over here without any issues in any
>> car.
>> >>>>> I think the swedes have up to 85 percent.
>> >>>>> Roland Jaeckel
>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dick Koch"
>> <arkoch at earthlink.net>
>> >>>>> To: <detomaso at poca.com>
>> >>>>> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 5:13 PM
>> >>>>> Subject: [DeTomaso] Ethanol "enriched" (diluted) fuel
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> While the use of Ethanol diluted fuel has been discussed 
>> >>>>>>before, folks may be interested in viewing this video on the 
>> >>>>>>use of the Ethanol "enriched" fuel being pushed by the EPA.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> http://video.foxbusiness.com/v/2000862202001/
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> From my standpoint, I would not use any Ethanol enriched fuel,
>> not
>> >>>>>>only
>> >>>>>> in my Pantera, but any car or other equipment, such as 
>> >>>>>>generators
>> or
>> >>>>>> lawn equipment. A couple of web sites I use to identify 
>> >>>>>> Ethanol
>> free
>> >>>>>> fuel are:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> http://pure-gas.org/
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=air.htapps.ethano
>> >>>>>>lfr
>> eega
>> >>>>>>s&hl=en
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Dick Koch
>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
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>> >>>>
>> >>>
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>> >>
>> >>
>> >>--
>> >>Sean Korb spkorb at spkorb.org http://www.spkorb.org
>> <http://www.spkorb.org/>
>> <http://www.spkorb.org/>
>> >>'65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 
>> >>Pantera
>> #1382
>> >>"The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller 
>> >>"Computers are useless. They can only give you answers." -P. 
>> >>Picasso _______________________________________________
>> >>
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>>
>>
>> --
>> Sean Korb spkorb at spkorb.org http://www.spkorb.org 
>> <http://www.spkorb.org/>  <http://www.spkorb.org/>
>> '65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 Pantera
>> #1382
>> "The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller 
>> "Computers are useless. They can only give you answers." -P. Picasso 
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