[DeTomaso] Ethanol "enriched" (diluted) fuel

gow2 at rc-tech.net gow2 at rc-tech.net
Sun Jan 13 15:38:49 EST 2013 

Grain from our country is as oil is from Saudi Arabia. Government
involvement in the whole thing messes up a lot of things.





> Not pissed, i just think we have beat this topic to death.
>
> Where I live in Georgia, we can buy e85, 99% of all gas sold here is at
> least 10% ethanol.  We can also buy
> Pure gas in selected locations.
>
> Everyone and science agrees that
>
> 1) it isn't as good as gas
> 2) it is expensive to produce
> 3) it causes the price of people food and cattle feed to be much more
> 4) it has a much shorter shelf life
> 5) in cars not designed specifically to handle it, it causes damage to the
> fuel systems.
>
> Some agree
>
> 6) it's a BS Govt program to enrich
>      A select few.
> 7) it takes more energy to produce a gallon of it than the actual energy
> potential in a gallon of it.
>
> So I think we're just ready to move on in general
>
> Michael Shortt
>
> Here are some convo starters
>
> And all Panteras look better in Yellow
> Cleveland Engines with Carbs are Best.
> 15" wheels are relics of the past
> Delta wings make awesome picnic tables
> On Jan 13, 2013 3:11 PM, "pantera928" <pantera928 at bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I sent out an email yesterday asking about experiences with using e-10
>> and
>> e-15 under the tile of "Ethanol gasoline" but have not received one
>> response. Did you get it? I continue to see the topics of how much is
>> costs
>> to make ethanol, how it lowers octane and how a car senses ethanol
>> debated
>> under this thread so I know the list is active. I guess either my email
>> did
>> not get received or everyone runs pure gas and has never had an ethanol
>> related failure or maybe, I have somehow pissed off everyone on this
>> list.
>> Comments?
>>
>> --- On Sun, 1/13/13, Tomas Gunnarsson <guson at home.se> wrote:
>>
>>
>> From: Tomas Gunnarsson <guson at home.se>
>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Ethanol "enriched" (diluted) fuel
>> To: rgg at gregorycook.com
>> Cc: detomaso at poca.com
>> Date: Sunday, January 13, 2013, 1:30 PM
>>
>>
>> The flexifuel cars sold here do handle anything. You can fill up with
>> straight gas or E85 regardless of what is in the tank before and how
>> much is left in the tank of the old fuel.
>>
>> Tomas
>>
>> <-----Ursprungligt Meddelande----->
>> From: Gray Gregory [rgg at gregorycook.com]
>> Sent: 13/1/2013 5:45:59 PM
>> To: Tomas Gunnarsson; spkorb at gmail.com
>> Cc: detomaso at poca.com
>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Ethanol "enriched" (diluted) fuel
>>
>> I wouldn't assume the flex fuel sys can handle anything from 0 to 85%
>> ethanol. I don't know but since there is no option that I'm aware of to
>> buy say E-50 it's more likely just be an either or program. Here in the
>> states virtually all of our "standard" gasoline is E-10 these days. The
>> only other available ethanol blend I've ever seen sold is the E-85. Of
>> course if you mixed part tank of one w/ a part tank of the other I guess
>> you could get something in the middle so maybe I'm all wrong there....
>> As far as how it knows what you filled up with I have no idea, but might
>> it just be as simple as measuring the weight of the fuel??
>>
>> Gray
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: detomaso-bounces at poca.com [mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com] On
>> Behalf Of Tomas Gunnarsson
>> Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2013 10:06 AM
>> To: spkorb at gmail.com
>> Cc: detomaso at poca.com
>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Ethanol "enriched" (diluted) fuel
>>
>> If a flexifuel car can use anything from 0 to 85% E it seems more likely
>> that you simply have a more flexible table or whatever it is to cope
>> with all situations. My thinking...
>>
>> Tomas
>>
>> <-----Ursprungligt Meddelande----->
>> From: Sean Korb [spkorb at gmail.com]
>> Sent: 13/1/2013 3:50:02 PM
>> To: detomaso at poca.com
>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Ethanol "enriched" (diluted) fuel
>>
>> I thought so to, but you have to know *which* closed loop system to
>> measure and calculate new tables. Ethanol only needs 9 parts oxygen for
>> stoch (why it takes more ethanol than gasoline for the same volumetric
>> power) and gasoline needs 12. I think diesel takes 18 so now everybody's
>> going to want to put a Powerstroke in their Pantera ;) Even a wideband
>> O2 sensor is going to be *way* off when you go that far lean or that far
>> rich. Putting a lot of ethanol in the tank will be quite a shock to any
>> EFI system unless you give it a hint.
>>
>> Honestly though, I'm just spitballing.
>>
>> sean
>>
>> On Sun, Jan 13, 2013 at 4:49 AM, Tomas Gunnarsson <guson at home.se> wrote:
>> > Isn't it as easy as letting the closed loop regulation adapt the
>> richness of
>> > the combustion process? I understand that it may be quicker to detect
>> what's
>> > going into the process but eventually the analysis of the output
>> (exhaust)
>> > will make the system adjust to the same result out.
>> >
>> > Tomas
>> >
>> > <-----Ursprungligt Meddelande----->
>> > From: Will Kooiman [will.kooiman at gmail.com]
>> > Sent: 13/1/2013 3:11:05 AM
>> > To: spkorb at gmail.com; detomaso at poca.com
>> > Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Ethanol "enriched" (diluted) fuel
>> >
>> > Well said. Choice is part of what makes the free market system work.
>> And
>> > that means choice on a level playing ground too, where one choice is
>> not
>> > heavily subsidized over another.
>> >
>> > I had a friend tell me recently that the fuel economy is much worse
>> when
>> > he burns E85 in his flex fuel vehicle (Ford, but I forgot the model).
>> His
>> > explanation was that the computer recognized the higher alcohol
>> content,
>> > so it over adjusted. I'm not saying his analysis is right or wrong.
>> I'm
>> > just repeating what he said. It at least sounds reasonable.
>> >
>> > Does anyone know how flex fuel vehicles "know" the alcohol content?
>> I'm
>> > assuming there is a sensor in the tank, but how would it work?
>> Specific
>> > gravity? I guess I could google it.
>> >
>> > On 1/12/13 6:19 PM, "Sean Korb" <spkorb at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >>I work for a major international agriculture seed and chemical
>> >>supplier concern. Ethanol production has a very significant impact on
>> >>our bottom line and we provide a number of attractive products making
>> >>a lot of progress to get the BTU tradeoff near unity. Invest in us
>> >>since our stock price only seems to rise so our shareholders are
>> >>pretty happy with this. The future in this space is pretty bright
>> >>indeed and the technology is quite exciting.
>> >>
>> >>But it's getting very very hard for me to fine 100% gasoline in my
>> >>area and almost all my cars and lawn implements are negatively
>> >>impacted by this (my rubber hoses and O rings have turned to goo).
>> >>What I would *really* like is choice and then we could make educated
>> >>purchases in fuel markets.
>> >>
>> >>sean
>> >>
>> >>On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 1:41 PM, Jerry Knotts <knottsj at galstar.com>
>> wrote:
>> >>> Being a farmer I appreciate everything the government does in the
>> farm
>> >>> subsidy area. Being a driver not so much so.
>> >>>
>> >>> My grocery getter gets 8 percent less mileage on Ethanol blended 10
>> >>> percent. Everything else I have is using diesel, gasoline, or
>> Propane.
>> >>> 131,000 Btu are needed to make 1 gallon of ethanol. One gallon of
>> >>> ethanol has an energy value of only 77,000 Btu. Every time you make
>> 1
>> >>> gallon of ethanol, there is a net energy loss of 54,000 Btu.
>> >>>
>> >>> Government subsidies lower the price artificially. Government
>> subsidies
>> >>> represent about $4.18 per gallon. The 131,00 BTUs used are from oil
>> >>> and it uses about 1/50th of an acre of corn (on a good year) to
>> produce
>> >>> a gallon of Ethanol. Corn is hard on the ground and require a high
>> >>> input of fertilizer. Nitrogen fertilizers, herbicides and pesticides
>> >>> are all made from fossil fuels, as is the diesel fuel, gasoline,
>> LPG,
>> >>> natural gas, electricity, transportation and irrigation used to grow
>> and
>> >>> transport the corn. Water input is also high but it is either
>> provided
>> >>> naturally or not, in my case I can't afford irrigation.
>> >>>
>> >>> If I was still actively farming I would stop growing grass for
>> cattle
>> >>> and start growing corn for cars.
>> >>>
>> >>> To late smarter,
>> >>> jerry knotts
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On 1/10/2013 11:28 AM, Dick Koch wrote:
>> >>>> Roland, even with the diverse opinions on the affects of Ethanol on
>> >>>>pre-ethanol diluted fuel vehicles and equipment, I know we all can
>> >>>>agree that the price of Frito's has increased with the increased
>> >>>>use of
>> corn
>> >>>> based ethanol.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Dick Koch - Atlanta
>> >>>> On 1/10/2013 11:37 AM, Roland Jaeckel wrote:
>> >>>>> We have 10 percent Ethanol over here without any issues in any
>> car.
>> >>>>> I think the swedes have up to 85 percent.
>> >>>>> Roland Jaeckel
>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dick Koch"
>> <arkoch at earthlink.net>
>> >>>>> To: <detomaso at poca.com>
>> >>>>> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 5:13 PM
>> >>>>> Subject: [DeTomaso] Ethanol "enriched" (diluted) fuel
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> While the use of Ethanol diluted fuel has been discussed before,
>> >>>>>>folks may be interested in viewing this video on the use of the
>> >>>>>>Ethanol "enriched" fuel being pushed by the EPA.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> http://video.foxbusiness.com/v/2000862202001/
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> From my standpoint, I would not use any Ethanol enriched fuel,
>> not
>> >>>>>>only
>> >>>>>> in my Pantera, but any car or other equipment, such as generators
>> or
>> >>>>>> lawn equipment. A couple of web sites I use to identify Ethanol
>> free
>> >>>>>> fuel are:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> http://pure-gas.org/
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=air.htapps.ethanolfr
>> eega
>> >>>>>>s&hl=en
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Dick Koch
>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>> >>>>>>
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>> >>>>
>> >>>
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>> >>
>> >>
>> >>--
>> >>Sean Korb spkorb at spkorb.org http://www.spkorb.org
>> <http://www.spkorb.org/>
>> <http://www.spkorb.org/>
>> >>'65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 Pantera
>> #1382
>> >>"The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller "Computers
>> >>are useless. They can only give you answers." -P. Picasso
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>>
>>
>> --
>> Sean Korb spkorb at spkorb.org http://www.spkorb.org
>> <http://www.spkorb.org/>  <http://www.spkorb.org/>
>> '65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 Pantera
>> #1382
>> "The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller "Computers
>> are useless. They can only give you answers." -P. Picasso
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