[DeTomaso] Ethanol "enriched" (diluted) fuel

Sun Jan 13 11:45:12 EST 2013

I wouldn't assume the flex fuel sys can handle anything from 0 to 85% ethanol. I don't know but since there is no option that I'm aware of to buy say E-50 it's more likely just be an either or program. Here in the states virtually all of our "standard" gasoline is E-10 these days. The only other available ethanol blend I've ever seen sold is the E-85. Of course if you mixed part tank of one w/ a part tank of the other I guess you could get something in the middle so maybe I'm all wrong there.... As far as how it knows what you filled up with I have no idea, but might it just be as simple as measuring the weight of the fuel??

Gray

-----Original Message-----
From: detomaso-bounces at poca.com [mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com] On Behalf Of Tomas Gunnarsson
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2013 10:06 AM
To: spkorb at gmail.com
Cc: detomaso at poca.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Ethanol "enriched" (diluted) fuel

If a flexifuel car can use anything from 0 to 85% E it seems more likely that you simply have a more flexible table or whatever it is to cope with all situations. My thinking...

Tomas

<-----Ursprungligt Meddelande----->
From: Sean Korb [spkorb at gmail.com]
Sent: 13/1/2013 3:50:02 PM
To: detomaso at poca.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Ethanol "enriched" (diluted) fuel

I thought so to, but you have to know *which* closed loop system to measure and calculate new tables. Ethanol only needs 9 parts oxygen for stoch (why it takes more ethanol than gasoline for the same volumetric power) and gasoline needs 12. I think diesel takes 18 so now everybody's going to want to put a Powerstroke in their Pantera ;) Even a wideband O2 sensor is going to be *way* off when you go that far lean or that far rich. Putting a lot of ethanol in the tank will be quite a shock to any EFI system unless you give it a hint.

Honestly though, I'm just spitballing.

sean

On Sun, Jan 13, 2013 at 4:49 AM, Tomas Gunnarsson <guson at home.se> wrote:
> Isn't it as easy as letting the closed loop regulation adapt the
richness of
> the combustion process? I understand that it may be quicker to detect
what's
> going into the process but eventually the analysis of the output
(exhaust)
> will make the system adjust to the same result out.
>
> Tomas
>
> <-----Ursprungligt Meddelande----->
> From: Will Kooiman [will.kooiman at gmail.com]
> Sent: 13/1/2013 3:11:05 AM
> To: spkorb at gmail.com; detomaso at poca.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Ethanol "enriched" (diluted) fuel
>
> Well said. Choice is part of what makes the free market system work.
And
> that means choice on a level playing ground too, where one choice is
not
> heavily subsidized over another.
>
> I had a friend tell me recently that the fuel economy is much worse
when
> he burns E85 in his flex fuel vehicle (Ford, but I forgot the model).
His
> explanation was that the computer recognized the higher alcohol
content,
> so it over adjusted. I'm not saying his analysis is right or wrong.
I'm
> just repeating what he said. It at least sounds reasonable.
>
> Does anyone know how flex fuel vehicles "know" the alcohol content?
I'm
> assuming there is a sensor in the tank, but how would it work?
Specific
> gravity? I guess I could google it.
>
> On 1/12/13 6:19 PM, "Sean Korb" <spkorb at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>I work for a major international agriculture seed and chemical 
>>supplier concern. Ethanol production has a very significant impact on 
>>our bottom line and we provide a number of attractive products making 
>>a lot of progress to get the BTU tradeoff near unity. Invest in us 
>>since our stock price only seems to rise so our shareholders are 
>>pretty happy with this. The future in this space is pretty bright 
>>indeed and the technology is quite exciting.
>>
>>But it's getting very very hard for me to fine 100% gasoline in my 
>>area and almost all my cars and lawn implements are negatively 
>>impacted by this (my rubber hoses and O rings have turned to goo).
>>What I would *really* like is choice and then we could make educated 
>>purchases in fuel markets.
>>
>>sean
>>
>>On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 1:41 PM, Jerry Knotts <knottsj at galstar.com>
wrote:
>>> Being a farmer I appreciate everything the government does in the
farm
>>> subsidy area. Being a driver not so much so.
>>>
>>> My grocery getter gets 8 percent less mileage on Ethanol blended 10 
>>> percent. Everything else I have is using diesel, gasoline, or
Propane.
>>> 131,000 Btu are needed to make 1 gallon of ethanol. One gallon of 
>>> ethanol has an energy value of only 77,000 Btu. Every time you make
1
>>> gallon of ethanol, there is a net energy loss of 54,000 Btu.
>>>
>>> Government subsidies lower the price artificially. Government
subsidies
>>> represent about $4.18 per gallon. The 131,00 BTUs used are from oil 
>>> and it uses about 1/50th of an acre of corn (on a good year) to
produce
>>> a gallon of Ethanol. Corn is hard on the ground and require a high 
>>> input of fertilizer. Nitrogen fertilizers, herbicides and pesticides 
>>> are all made from fossil fuels, as is the diesel fuel, gasoline,
LPG,
>>> natural gas, electricity, transportation and irrigation used to grow
and
>>> transport the corn. Water input is also high but it is either
provided
>>> naturally or not, in my case I can't afford irrigation.
>>>
>>> If I was still actively farming I would stop growing grass for
cattle
>>> and start growing corn for cars.
>>>
>>> To late smarter,
>>> jerry knotts
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 1/10/2013 11:28 AM, Dick Koch wrote:
>>>> Roland, even with the diverse opinions on the affects of Ethanol on  
>>>>pre-ethanol diluted fuel vehicles and equipment, I know we all can 
>>>>agree  that the price of Frito's has increased with the increased 
>>>>use of
corn
>>>> based ethanol.
>>>>
>>>> Dick Koch - Atlanta
>>>> On 1/10/2013 11:37 AM, Roland Jaeckel wrote:
>>>>> We have 10 percent Ethanol over here without any issues in any
car.
>>>>> I think the swedes have up to 85 percent.
>>>>> Roland Jaeckel
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dick Koch"
<arkoch at earthlink.net>
>>>>> To: <detomaso at poca.com>
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 5:13 PM
>>>>> Subject: [DeTomaso] Ethanol "enriched" (diluted) fuel
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> While the use of Ethanol diluted fuel has been discussed before, 
>>>>>>folks  may be interested in viewing this video on the use of the 
>>>>>>Ethanol  "enriched" fuel being pushed by the EPA.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://video.foxbusiness.com/v/2000862202001/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From my standpoint, I would not use any Ethanol enriched fuel,
not
>>>>>>only
>>>>>> in my Pantera, but any car or other equipment, such as generators
or
>>>>>> lawn equipment. A couple of web sites I use to identify Ethanol
free
>>>>>> fuel are:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://pure-gas.org/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=air.htapps.ethanolfr
eega
>>>>>>s&hl=en
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dick Koch
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>--
>>Sean Korb spkorb at spkorb.org http://www.spkorb.org
<http://www.spkorb.org/> 
>>'65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 Pantera
#1382
>>"The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller "Computers 
>>are useless. They can only give you answers." -P. Picasso 
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--
Sean Korb spkorb at spkorb.org http://www.spkorb.org <http://www.spkorb.org/>
'65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 Pantera
#1382
"The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller "Computers are useless. They can only give you answers." -P. Picasso _______________________________________________

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