[DeTomaso] Ethanol "enriched" (diluted) fuel

gow2 at rc-tech.net gow2 at rc-tech.net
Sun Jan 13 10:42:10 EST 2013


The question is, is it writing new tables?

When I worked with the Holley Commander 950 set up, you set up the tables
but you can run it closed loop or open loop. Closed loop does not update
the table.

The 950 setup works better open loop. When it runs closed loop it
constantly is chasing it's tail. When it makes a change in one box in the
table, it is moves to another box so quickly, the box it moves too is now
off then it tries to react to that. A fined tuned table works better then
a closed loop system because it simply cannot react fast enough.

Newer fuel injection systems use the closed loop to....re-write the
table....That is the key.

So do the new cars r-write the table? Use a different table based on fuel?
If the table is basically correct for one gas, can you simply use a
modified table...modifying all the numbers accordingly based on a fuel.



> It was my impression that closed loop only adjusted the tables so far,
> like 10%, for example.  So you still need tables, and the tables for each
> fuel would be different.
>
> Of course, I might be misunderstanding the capabilities of closed loop.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jan 13, 2013, at 9:49 AM, Sean Korb <spkorb at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I thought so to, but you have to know *which* closed loop system to
>> measure and calculate new tables.  Ethanol only needs 9 parts oxygen
>> for stoch (why it takes more ethanol than gasoline for the same
>> volumetric power) and gasoline needs 12.  I think diesel takes 18 so
>> now everybody's going to want to put a Powerstroke in their Pantera ;)
>> Even a wideband O2 sensor is going to be *way* off when you go that
>> far lean or that far rich.  Putting a lot of ethanol in the tank will
>> be quite a shock to any EFI system unless you give it a hint.
>>
>> Honestly though, I'm just spitballing.
>>
>> sean
>>
>> On Sun, Jan 13, 2013 at 4:49 AM, Tomas Gunnarsson <guson at home.se> wrote:
>>> Isn't it as easy as letting the closed loop regulation adapt the
>>> richness of
>>> the combustion process? I understand that it may be quicker to detect
>>> what's
>>> going into the process but eventually the analysis of the output
>>> (exhaust)
>>> will make the system adjust to the same result out.
>>>
>>> Tomas
>>>
>>> <-----Ursprungligt Meddelande----->
>>> From: Will Kooiman [will.kooiman at gmail.com]
>>> Sent: 13/1/2013 3:11:05 AM
>>> To: spkorb at gmail.com; detomaso at poca.com
>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Ethanol "enriched" (diluted) fuel
>>>
>>> Well said. Choice is part of what makes the free market system work.
>>> And
>>> that means choice on a level playing ground too, where one choice is
>>> not
>>> heavily subsidized over another.
>>>
>>> I had a friend tell me recently that the fuel economy is much worse
>>> when
>>> he burns E85 in his flex fuel vehicle (Ford, but I forgot the model).
>>> His
>>> explanation was that the computer recognized the higher alcohol
>>> content,
>>> so it over adjusted. I'm not saying his analysis is right or wrong. I'm
>>> just repeating what he said. It at least sounds reasonable.
>>>
>>> Does anyone know how flex fuel vehicles "know" the alcohol content? I'm
>>> assuming there is a sensor in the tank, but how would it work? Specific
>>> gravity? I guess I could google it.
>>>
>>> On 1/12/13 6:19 PM, "Sean Korb" <spkorb at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I work for a major international agriculture seed and chemical
>>>> supplier concern. Ethanol production has a very significant impact on
>>>> our bottom line and we provide a number of attractive products making
>>>> a lot of progress to get the BTU tradeoff near unity. Invest in us
>>>> since our stock price only seems to rise so our shareholders are
>>>> pretty happy with this. The future in this space is pretty bright
>>>> indeed and the technology is quite exciting.
>>>>
>>>> But it's getting very very hard for me to fine 100% gasoline in my
>>>> area and almost all my cars and lawn implements are negatively
>>>> impacted by this (my rubber hoses and O rings have turned to goo).
>>>> What I would *really* like is choice and then we could make educated
>>>> purchases in fuel markets.
>>>>
>>>> sean
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 1:41 PM, Jerry Knotts <knottsj at galstar.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Being a farmer I appreciate everything the government does in the
>>>>> farm
>>>>> subsidy area. Being a driver not so much so.
>>>>>
>>>>> My grocery getter gets 8 percent less mileage on Ethanol blended 10
>>>>> percent. Everything else I have is using diesel, gasoline, or
>>>>> Propane.
>>>>> 131,000 Btu are needed to make 1 gallon of ethanol. One gallon of
>>>>> ethanol has an energy value of only 77,000 Btu. Every time you make 1
>>>>> gallon of ethanol, there is a net energy loss of 54,000 Btu.
>>>>>
>>>>> Government subsidies lower the price artificially. Government
>>>>> subsidies
>>>>> represent about $4.18 per gallon. The 131,00 BTUs used are from oil
>>>>> and it uses about 1/50th of an acre of corn (on a good year) to
>>>>> produce
>>>>> a gallon of Ethanol. Corn is hard on the ground and require a high
>>>>> input of fertilizer. Nitrogen fertilizers, herbicides and pesticides
>>>>> are all made from fossil fuels, as is the diesel fuel, gasoline, LPG,
>>>>> natural gas, electricity, transportation and irrigation used to grow
>>>>> and
>>>>> transport the corn. Water input is also high but it is either
>>>>> provided
>>>>> naturally or not, in my case I can't afford irrigation.
>>>>>
>>>>> If I was still actively farming I would stop growing grass for cattle
>>>>> and start growing corn for cars.
>>>>>
>>>>> To late smarter,
>>>>> jerry knotts
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 1/10/2013 11:28 AM, Dick Koch wrote:
>>>>>> Roland, even with the diverse opinions on the affects of Ethanol on
>>>>>> pre-ethanol diluted fuel vehicles and equipment, I know we all can
>>>>>> agree
>>>>>> that the price of Frito's has increased with the increased use of
>>>>>> corn
>>>>>> based ethanol.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dick Koch - Atlanta
>>>>>> On 1/10/2013 11:37 AM, Roland Jaeckel wrote:
>>>>>>> We have 10 percent Ethanol over here without any issues in any car.
>>>>>>> I think the swedes have up to 85 percent.
>>>>>>> Roland Jaeckel
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dick Koch"
>>>>>>> <arkoch at earthlink.net>
>>>>>>> To: <detomaso at poca.com>
>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 5:13 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: [DeTomaso] Ethanol "enriched" (diluted) fuel
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> While the use of Ethanol diluted fuel has been discussed before,
>>>>>>>> folks
>>>>>>>> may be interested in viewing this video on the use of the Ethanol
>>>>>>>> "enriched" fuel being pushed by the EPA.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://video.foxbusiness.com/v/2000862202001/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> From my standpoint, I would not use any Ethanol enriched fuel, not
>>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>>> in my Pantera, but any car or other equipment, such as generators
>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>> lawn equipment. A couple of web sites I use to identify Ethanol
>>>>>>>> free
>>>>>>>> fuel are:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://pure-gas.org/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=air.htapps.ethanolfreega
>>>>>>>> s&hl=en
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Dick Koch
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Sean Korb spkorb at spkorb.org http://www.spkorb.org
>>>> '65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 Pantera
>>>> #1382
>>>> "The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
>>>> "Computers are useless. They can only give you answers." -P. Picasso
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>>
>>
>> --
>> Sean Korb spkorb at spkorb.org http://www.spkorb.org
>> '65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 Pantera
>> #1382
>> "The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
>> "Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers." -P. Picasso
>> _______________________________________________
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