[DeTomaso] Ethanol "enriched" (diluted) fuel

Sun Jan 13 10:11:22 EST 2013

It was my impression that closed loop only adjusted the tables so far, like 10%, for example.  So you still need tables, and the tables for each fuel would be different.

Of course, I might be misunderstanding the capabilities of closed loop.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 13, 2013, at 9:49 AM, Sean Korb <spkorb at gmail.com> wrote:

> I thought so to, but you have to know *which* closed loop system to
> measure and calculate new tables.  Ethanol only needs 9 parts oxygen
> for stoch (why it takes more ethanol than gasoline for the same
> volumetric power) and gasoline needs 12.  I think diesel takes 18 so
> now everybody's going to want to put a Powerstroke in their Pantera ;)
> Even a wideband O2 sensor is going to be *way* off when you go that
> far lean or that far rich.  Putting a lot of ethanol in the tank will
> be quite a shock to any EFI system unless you give it a hint.
> 
> Honestly though, I'm just spitballing.
> 
> sean
> 
> On Sun, Jan 13, 2013 at 4:49 AM, Tomas Gunnarsson <guson at home.se> wrote:
>> Isn't it as easy as letting the closed loop regulation adapt the richness of
>> the combustion process? I understand that it may be quicker to detect what's
>> going into the process but eventually the analysis of the output (exhaust)
>> will make the system adjust to the same result out.
>> 
>> Tomas
>> 
>> <-----Ursprungligt Meddelande----->
>> From: Will Kooiman [will.kooiman at gmail.com]
>> Sent: 13/1/2013 3:11:05 AM
>> To: spkorb at gmail.com; detomaso at poca.com
>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Ethanol "enriched" (diluted) fuel
>> 
>> Well said. Choice is part of what makes the free market system work. And
>> that means choice on a level playing ground too, where one choice is not
>> heavily subsidized over another.
>> 
>> I had a friend tell me recently that the fuel economy is much worse when
>> he burns E85 in his flex fuel vehicle (Ford, but I forgot the model). His
>> explanation was that the computer recognized the higher alcohol content,
>> so it over adjusted. I'm not saying his analysis is right or wrong. I'm
>> just repeating what he said. It at least sounds reasonable.
>> 
>> Does anyone know how flex fuel vehicles "know" the alcohol content? I'm
>> assuming there is a sensor in the tank, but how would it work? Specific
>> gravity? I guess I could google it.
>> 
>> On 1/12/13 6:19 PM, "Sean Korb" <spkorb at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> I work for a major international agriculture seed and chemical
>>> supplier concern. Ethanol production has a very significant impact on
>>> our bottom line and we provide a number of attractive products making
>>> a lot of progress to get the BTU tradeoff near unity. Invest in us
>>> since our stock price only seems to rise so our shareholders are
>>> pretty happy with this. The future in this space is pretty bright
>>> indeed and the technology is quite exciting.
>>> 
>>> But it's getting very very hard for me to fine 100% gasoline in my
>>> area and almost all my cars and lawn implements are negatively
>>> impacted by this (my rubber hoses and O rings have turned to goo).
>>> What I would *really* like is choice and then we could make educated
>>> purchases in fuel markets.
>>> 
>>> sean
>>> 
>>> On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 1:41 PM, Jerry Knotts <knottsj at galstar.com> wrote:
>>>> Being a farmer I appreciate everything the government does in the farm
>>>> subsidy area. Being a driver not so much so.
>>>> 
>>>> My grocery getter gets 8 percent less mileage on Ethanol blended 10
>>>> percent. Everything else I have is using diesel, gasoline, or Propane.
>>>> 131,000 Btu are needed to make 1 gallon of ethanol. One gallon of
>>>> ethanol has an energy value of only 77,000 Btu. Every time you make 1
>>>> gallon of ethanol, there is a net energy loss of 54,000 Btu.
>>>> 
>>>> Government subsidies lower the price artificially. Government subsidies
>>>> represent about $4.18 per gallon. The 131,00 BTUs used are from oil
>>>> and it uses about 1/50th of an acre of corn (on a good year) to produce
>>>> a gallon of Ethanol. Corn is hard on the ground and require a high
>>>> input of fertilizer. Nitrogen fertilizers, herbicides and pesticides
>>>> are all made from fossil fuels, as is the diesel fuel, gasoline, LPG,
>>>> natural gas, electricity, transportation and irrigation used to grow and
>>>> transport the corn. Water input is also high but it is either provided
>>>> naturally or not, in my case I can't afford irrigation.
>>>> 
>>>> If I was still actively farming I would stop growing grass for cattle
>>>> and start growing corn for cars.
>>>> 
>>>> To late smarter,
>>>> jerry knotts
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On 1/10/2013 11:28 AM, Dick Koch wrote:
>>>>> Roland, even with the diverse opinions on the affects of Ethanol on
>>>>> pre-ethanol diluted fuel vehicles and equipment, I know we all can
>>>>> agree
>>>>> that the price of Frito's has increased with the increased use of corn
>>>>> based ethanol.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Dick Koch - Atlanta
>>>>> On 1/10/2013 11:37 AM, Roland Jaeckel wrote:
>>>>>> We have 10 percent Ethanol over here without any issues in any car.
>>>>>> I think the swedes have up to 85 percent.
>>>>>> Roland Jaeckel
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dick Koch" <arkoch at earthlink.net>
>>>>>> To: <detomaso at poca.com>
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 5:13 PM
>>>>>> Subject: [DeTomaso] Ethanol "enriched" (diluted) fuel
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> While the use of Ethanol diluted fuel has been discussed before,
>>>>>>> folks
>>>>>>> may be interested in viewing this video on the use of the Ethanol
>>>>>>> "enriched" fuel being pushed by the EPA.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> http://video.foxbusiness.com/v/2000862202001/
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> From my standpoint, I would not use any Ethanol enriched fuel, not
>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>> in my Pantera, but any car or other equipment, such as generators or
>>>>>>> lawn equipment. A couple of web sites I use to identify Ethanol free
>>>>>>> fuel are:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> http://pure-gas.org/
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=air.htapps.ethanolfreega
>>>>>>> s&hl=en
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Dick Koch
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> 
>>> --
>>> Sean Korb spkorb at spkorb.org http://www.spkorb.org
>>> '65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 Pantera #1382
>>> "The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
>>> "Computers are useless. They can only give you answers." -P. Picasso
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> 
> 
> -- 
> Sean Korb spkorb at spkorb.org http://www.spkorb.org
> '65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 Pantera #1382
> "The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
> "Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers." -P. Picasso
> _______________________________________________
> 
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