[DeTomaso] Ethanol "enriched" (diluted) fuel

Sun Jan 13 09:49:39 EST 2013

I thought so to, but you have to know *which* closed loop system to
measure and calculate new tables.  Ethanol only needs 9 parts oxygen
for stoch (why it takes more ethanol than gasoline for the same
volumetric power) and gasoline needs 12.  I think diesel takes 18 so
now everybody's going to want to put a Powerstroke in their Pantera ;)
 Even a wideband O2 sensor is going to be *way* off when you go that
far lean or that far rich.  Putting a lot of ethanol in the tank will
be quite a shock to any EFI system unless you give it a hint.

Honestly though, I'm just spitballing.

sean

On Sun, Jan 13, 2013 at 4:49 AM, Tomas Gunnarsson <guson at home.se> wrote:
> Isn't it as easy as letting the closed loop regulation adapt the richness of
> the combustion process? I understand that it may be quicker to detect what's
> going into the process but eventually the analysis of the output (exhaust)
> will make the system adjust to the same result out.
>
> Tomas
>
> <-----Ursprungligt Meddelande----->
> From: Will Kooiman [will.kooiman at gmail.com]
> Sent: 13/1/2013 3:11:05 AM
> To: spkorb at gmail.com; detomaso at poca.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Ethanol "enriched" (diluted) fuel
>
> Well said. Choice is part of what makes the free market system work. And
> that means choice on a level playing ground too, where one choice is not
> heavily subsidized over another.
>
> I had a friend tell me recently that the fuel economy is much worse when
> he burns E85 in his flex fuel vehicle (Ford, but I forgot the model). His
> explanation was that the computer recognized the higher alcohol content,
> so it over adjusted. I'm not saying his analysis is right or wrong. I'm
> just repeating what he said. It at least sounds reasonable.
>
> Does anyone know how flex fuel vehicles "know" the alcohol content? I'm
> assuming there is a sensor in the tank, but how would it work? Specific
> gravity? I guess I could google it.
>
> On 1/12/13 6:19 PM, "Sean Korb" <spkorb at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>I work for a major international agriculture seed and chemical
>>supplier concern. Ethanol production has a very significant impact on
>>our bottom line and we provide a number of attractive products making
>>a lot of progress to get the BTU tradeoff near unity. Invest in us
>>since our stock price only seems to rise so our shareholders are
>>pretty happy with this. The future in this space is pretty bright
>>indeed and the technology is quite exciting.
>>
>>But it's getting very very hard for me to fine 100% gasoline in my
>>area and almost all my cars and lawn implements are negatively
>>impacted by this (my rubber hoses and O rings have turned to goo).
>>What I would *really* like is choice and then we could make educated
>>purchases in fuel markets.
>>
>>sean
>>
>>On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 1:41 PM, Jerry Knotts <knottsj at galstar.com> wrote:
>>> Being a farmer I appreciate everything the government does in the farm
>>> subsidy area. Being a driver not so much so.
>>>
>>> My grocery getter gets 8 percent less mileage on Ethanol blended 10
>>> percent. Everything else I have is using diesel, gasoline, or Propane.
>>> 131,000 Btu are needed to make 1 gallon of ethanol. One gallon of
>>> ethanol has an energy value of only 77,000 Btu. Every time you make 1
>>> gallon of ethanol, there is a net energy loss of 54,000 Btu.
>>>
>>> Government subsidies lower the price artificially. Government subsidies
>>> represent about $4.18 per gallon. The 131,00 BTUs used are from oil
>>> and it uses about 1/50th of an acre of corn (on a good year) to produce
>>> a gallon of Ethanol. Corn is hard on the ground and require a high
>>> input of fertilizer. Nitrogen fertilizers, herbicides and pesticides
>>> are all made from fossil fuels, as is the diesel fuel, gasoline, LPG,
>>> natural gas, electricity, transportation and irrigation used to grow and
>>> transport the corn. Water input is also high but it is either provided
>>> naturally or not, in my case I can't afford irrigation.
>>>
>>> If I was still actively farming I would stop growing grass for cattle
>>> and start growing corn for cars.
>>>
>>> To late smarter,
>>> jerry knotts
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 1/10/2013 11:28 AM, Dick Koch wrote:
>>>> Roland, even with the diverse opinions on the affects of Ethanol on
>>>> pre-ethanol diluted fuel vehicles and equipment, I know we all can
>>>>agree
>>>> that the price of Frito's has increased with the increased use of corn
>>>> based ethanol.
>>>>
>>>> Dick Koch - Atlanta
>>>> On 1/10/2013 11:37 AM, Roland Jaeckel wrote:
>>>>> We have 10 percent Ethanol over here without any issues in any car.
>>>>> I think the swedes have up to 85 percent.
>>>>> Roland Jaeckel
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dick Koch" <arkoch at earthlink.net>
>>>>> To: <detomaso at poca.com>
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 5:13 PM
>>>>> Subject: [DeTomaso] Ethanol "enriched" (diluted) fuel
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> While the use of Ethanol diluted fuel has been discussed before,
>>>>>>folks
>>>>>> may be interested in viewing this video on the use of the Ethanol
>>>>>> "enriched" fuel being pushed by the EPA.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://video.foxbusiness.com/v/2000862202001/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From my standpoint, I would not use any Ethanol enriched fuel, not
>>>>>>only
>>>>>> in my Pantera, but any car or other equipment, such as generators or
>>>>>> lawn equipment. A couple of web sites I use to identify Ethanol free
>>>>>> fuel are:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://pure-gas.org/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=air.htapps.ethanolfreega
>>>>>>s&hl=en
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dick Koch
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>>--
>>Sean Korb spkorb at spkorb.org http://www.spkorb.org
>>'65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 Pantera #1382
>>"The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
>>"Computers are useless. They can only give you answers." -P. Picasso
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-- 
Sean Korb spkorb at spkorb.org http://www.spkorb.org
'65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 Pantera #1382
"The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
"Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers." -P. Picasso