[DeTomaso] Ethanol "enriched" (diluted) fuel

Sat Jan 12 23:07:42 EST 2013

It really does get worse gas mileage, but if that wasn't a concern,
the increased octane could be attractive.  At the Petite Le Mans this
year, using E85 was popular.  So was using isobutanol.  It's
interesting playing with different fuels to see what they can do.  It
also shows how lucky we are to have Gasoline :)

How it works is a bit of a mystery.  CHecking this forum the readings
are in Hz so... what's that about?  I could understand if the fuel
ohmic resistance changed but honestly I'm lost without a mass spec.
All the other sources say "flex fuel sensor" make it all tick and
there's is a transfer function graph to be sure yours is calibrated.
But no info on the physics itself.

http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?647997-Whats-the-wiring-pinout-for-a-ford-3-wire-flex-fuel-sensor

sean

On Sat, Jan 12, 2013 at 10:50 PM, Will Kooiman <will.kooiman at gmail.com> wrote:
> Good site, but it doesn't explain how the sensor works.  It just says it
> is in the fuel line, and there is a microprocessor.
>
> BTW, I don't know what I was thinking, but I had it backward.  E85 is 85%
> ethanol, not 85% gasoline.  (or roughly 85% - per the article, it varies
> quite a bit).  It makes sense that E85 gets much worse gas mileage if it
> is 85% ethanol.
>
> On 1/12/13 9:32 PM, "Sean Korb" <spkorb at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>This is a great article!
>>
>>http://www.megamanual.com/flexfuel.htm
>>
>>sean
>>
>>On Sat, Jan 12, 2013 at 8:56 PM, Will Kooiman <will.kooiman at gmail.com>
>>wrote:
>>> Well said.  Choice is part of what makes the free market system work.
>>>And
>>> that means choice on a level playing ground too, where one choice is not
>>> heavily subsidized over another.
>>>
>>> I had a friend tell me recently that the fuel economy is much worse when
>>> he burns E85 in his flex fuel vehicle (Ford, but I forgot the model).
>>>His
>>> explanation was that the computer recognized the higher alcohol content,
>>> so it over adjusted.  I'm not saying his analysis is right or wrong.
>>>I'm
>>> just repeating what he said.  It at least sounds reasonable.
>>>
>>> Does anyone know how flex fuel vehicles "know" the alcohol content?  I'm
>>> assuming there is a sensor in the tank, but how would it work?  Specific
>>> gravity?  I guess I could google it.
>>>
>>> On 1/12/13 6:19 PM, "Sean Korb" <spkorb at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>I work for a major international agriculture seed and chemical
>>>>supplier concern.  Ethanol production has a very significant impact on
>>>>our bottom line and we provide a number of attractive products making
>>>>a lot of progress to get the BTU tradeoff near unity.  Invest in us
>>>>since our stock price only seems to rise so our shareholders are
>>>>pretty happy with this.  The future in this space is pretty bright
>>>>indeed and the technology is quite exciting.
>>>>
>>>>But it's getting very very hard for me to fine 100% gasoline in my
>>>>area and almost all my cars and lawn implements are negatively
>>>>impacted by this (my rubber hoses and O rings have turned to goo).
>>>>What I would *really* like is choice and then we could make educated
>>>>purchases in fuel markets.
>>>>
>>>>sean
>>>>
>>>>On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 1:41 PM, Jerry Knotts <knottsj at galstar.com>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>> Being a farmer I appreciate everything the government does in the farm
>>>>> subsidy area.    Being a driver not so much so.
>>>>>
>>>>> My grocery getter gets 8 percent less mileage on Ethanol blended 10
>>>>> percent.  Everything else I have is using diesel, gasoline, or
>>>>>Propane.
>>>>> 131,000 Btu are needed to make 1 gallon of ethanol. One gallon of
>>>>> ethanol has an energy value of only 77,000 Btu.  Every time you make 1
>>>>> gallon of ethanol, there is a net energy loss of 54,000 Btu.
>>>>>
>>>>> Government subsidies lower the price artificially.  Government
>>>>>subsidies
>>>>> represent about  $4.18 per gallon.  The 131,00 BTUs used are from oil
>>>>> and it uses about 1/50th  of an acre of corn (on a good year) to
>>>>>produce
>>>>> a gallon of Ethanol.  Corn is hard on the ground and require a high
>>>>> input of fertilizer.    Nitrogen fertilizers, herbicides and
>>>>>pesticides
>>>>> are all made from fossil fuels, as is the diesel fuel, gasoline, LPG,
>>>>> natural gas, electricity, transportation and irrigation used to grow
>>>>>and
>>>>> transport the corn.  Water input is also high but it is either
>>>>>provided
>>>>> naturally or not, in my case I can't afford irrigation.
>>>>>
>>>>> If I was still actively farming I would stop growing grass for cattle
>>>>> and start growing corn for cars.
>>>>>
>>>>> To late smarter,
>>>>> jerry knotts
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 1/10/2013 11:28 AM, Dick Koch wrote:
>>>>>> Roland, even with the diverse opinions on the affects of Ethanol on
>>>>>> pre-ethanol diluted fuel vehicles and equipment, I know we all can
>>>>>>agree
>>>>>> that the price of Frito's has increased with the increased use of
>>>>>>corn
>>>>>> based ethanol.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dick Koch - Atlanta
>>>>>> On 1/10/2013 11:37 AM, Roland Jaeckel wrote:
>>>>>>> We have 10 percent Ethanol over here without any issues in any car.
>>>>>>> I think the swedes have up to 85 percent.
>>>>>>> Roland Jaeckel
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dick Koch"
>>>>>>><arkoch at earthlink.net>
>>>>>>> To: <detomaso at poca.com>
>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 5:13 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: [DeTomaso] Ethanol "enriched" (diluted) fuel
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> While the use of Ethanol diluted fuel has been discussed before,
>>>>>>>>folks
>>>>>>>> may be interested in viewing this video on the use of the Ethanol
>>>>>>>> "enriched" fuel being pushed by the EPA.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://video.foxbusiness.com/v/2000862202001/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  From my standpoint, I would not use any Ethanol enriched fuel, not
>>>>>>>>only
>>>>>>>> in my Pantera, but any car or other equipment, such as generators
>>>>>>>>or
>>>>>>>> lawn equipment.  A couple of web sites I use to identify Ethanol
>>>>>>>>free
>>>>>>>> fuel are:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://pure-gas.org/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=air.htapps.ethanolfree
>>>>>>>>ga
>>>>>>>>s&hl=en
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Dick Koch
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>Sean Korb spkorb at spkorb.org http://www.spkorb.org
>>>>'65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 Pantera
>>>>#1382
>>>>"The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
>>>>"Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers." -P. Picasso
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>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>Sean Korb spkorb at spkorb.org http://www.spkorb.org
>>'65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 Pantera #1382
>>"The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
>>"Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers." -P. Picasso
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>

-- 
Sean Korb spkorb at spkorb.org http://www.spkorb.org
'65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 Pantera #1382
"The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
"Computers are useless.  They can only give you answers." -P. Picasso