[DeTomaso] DeTomaso Digest, Vol 103, Issue 11
rcbsons1 at aol.com
rcbsons1 at aol.com
Fri Jan 11 22:00:13 EST 2013
Dart blocks come with cleveland mains due to the better oiling. You can use the same motor mounts but will have to grind them a little as the block has cupping at each cylinder. I had to do the same grinding on my mustang mounts when I did a dart block. The firing order on my dart block Pantera is changed... With a solid lifter cam and 180s it is hard to beat the sound:)
I drive my 600hp windsor Pantera on the street all the time. Cruising thru town on the freeways etc. it is a little radical but I love it
Just went for a spin in my 755 hp solid roller cam firebird. Again radical but I love taking it out for a spin. Oh the tires on that car go up in smoke just breathing on the throttle. Might have to tweak the Pantera up a little:)
Never too much hp
Bob Benson
Sent from my iPhone
Bob Benson
RC Benson & Sons
Office 650-965-3430
Cell 408-209-7677
On Jan 11, 2013, at 11:00 AM, detomaso-request at poca.com wrote:
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> Daily Detomaso List Digest
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: NPC: 2013 GT500 (Dave)
> 2. Re: Two things ?? (Charles McCall)
> 3. Re: Two things ?? (Charles McCall)
> 4. Re: Ethanol "enriched" (diluted) fuel (michael at michaelshortt.com)
> 5. 351w or 351c (Ed Mendez)
> 6. Re: 351w or 351c (michael at michaelshortt.com)
> 7. Re: Ethanol "enriched" (diluted) fuel (JDeRyke at aol.com)
> 8. Re: Ethanol "enriched" (diluted) fuel (michael at michaelshortt.com)
> 9. Re: Ethanol "enriched" (diluted) fuel (Julian Kift)
> 10. Re: 351w or 351c (shawkins777 at comcast.net)
> 11. Re: 351w or 351c (LS)
> 12. Re: 351w or 351c (Daniel C Jones)
> 13. Re: 351w or 351c (MikeLDrew at aol.com)
> 14. Re: January Auction Pantera's (MikeLDrew at aol.com)
> 15. Re: Two things ?? (Curt Hall)
> 16. Re: Two things ?? (Curt Hall)
> 17. Re: 351w or 351c (Daniel C Jones)
> 18. Re: Ethanol "enriched" (diluted) fuel (michael at michaelshortt.com)
> 19. Re: 351w or 351c (Ken Green)
> 20. Re: 351w or 351c (Ken Green)
> 21. Re: 351w or 351c (michael at michaelshortt.com)
> 22. Re: Ethanol "enriched" (diluted) fuel (Dave)
> 23. Re: 351w or 351c (Ken Green)
> 24. Inspection scope specs to fit through plug hole? (Ken Green)
> 25. Re: 351w or 351c (Jerry Knotts)
> 26. Re: 351w or 351c (LS)
> 27. Re: 351w or 351c (Ed Mendez)
> 28. Re: 351w or 351c (Ed Mendez)
> 29. Re: 351w or 351c (michael at michaelshortt.com)
> 30. Re: 351w or 351c (thomas)
> 31. Re: 351w or 351c (Ed Mendez)
> 32. Re: Two things ?? (Larry - Ohio Time Corp)
> 33. Re: Two things ?? (Larry - Ohio Time Corp)
> 34. Re: 351w or 351c (shawkins777 at comcast.net)
> 35. Re: Ethanol "enriched" (diluted) fuel (B Hower)
> 36. Re: Ethanol "enriched" (diluted) fuel (Gray Gregory)
> 37. Re: 351w or 351c (Mike Thomas)
> 38. Re: 351w or 351c (Will Kooiman)
> 39. Re: NPC: 2013 GT500 (Sean Korb)
> 40. Re: 351w or 351c (Sean Korb)
> 41. Re: Two things ?? (scott black)
> 42. Re: Two things ?? (scott black)
> 43. Re: NPC: 2013 GT500 (scott black)
> 44. Re: January Auction Pantera's (MikeLDrew at aol.com)
> 45. Re: Two things ?? (MikeLDrew at aol.com)
> 46. Re: Two things ?? (MikeLDrew at aol.com)
> 47. Re: 351w or 351c (JDeRyke at aol.com)
> 48. Re: 351w or 351c (shawkins777 at comcast.net)
> 49. Re: 351w or 351c (B Hower)
> 50. Test (Asa Jay Laughton)
> 51. Panterra all original for sale (vvics442 at aol.com)
> 52. ATTENTION: Mailing List ANNOUNCEMENT (Asa Jay Laughton)
> 53. NPC: 2013 GT500 (Scott Carpenter)
> 54. Re: NPC: 2013 GT500 (michael at michaelshortt.com)
> 55. Re: NPC: 2013 GT500 (Kirby Schrader)
> 56. Re: ATTENTION: Mailing List ANNOUNCEMENT (msm at portata.com)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 14:05:16 -0500
> From: Dave <dave at damardirect.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] NPC: 2013 GT500
> To: Kirby Schrader <kirby.schrader at gmail.com>, "detomaso at poca.com"
> <detomaso at poca.com>
> Message-ID:
> <BF2E96FA630B704D89F8B22E4284D550034C90C4 at tbfg-dc-vm028.bgdc3.local>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Not long ago you could sit in a 70M house!
> IndyDave
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kirby Schrader [mailto:kirby.schrader at gmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2013 2:12 PM
> To: detomaso at poca.com
> Subject: [DeTomaso] NPC: 2013 GT500
>
> Don't know if you guys have been reading about the car?
>
> The acceleration it has is phenomenal!
> Just got mine yesterday and I haven't had a dry piece of pavement to play on yet, but wow....
>
> Gotta' love America. Where else can you drive to work and back comfortably in a 662HP 200mph vehicle that's less than $70K?
>
> FWIW,
> Kirby
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 20:11:12 +0100
> From: Charles McCall <charlesmccall at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Two things ??
> To: "'Julian Kift'" <julian_kift at hotmail.com>,
> <michael at michaelshortt.com>, <lotus0005 at hotmail.com>
> Cc: detomaso at poca.com, 'De Tomaso List' <detomaso at realbig.com>
> Message-ID: <000001cdef66$4280eaa0$c782bfe0$@gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> As a counterpoint, I bought a California Car Cover indoor cover based on
> Fred Terry's recommendation. I'm quite happy with mine.
>
> It fits my car like a glove - it is specifically made for a GT5-S with a
> delta wing. If you search the archives, you can read that Fred had some
> initial issues with the fitment, and he reported that CCC's customer service
> was extremely good in re-making and re-measuring and re-making the cover
> until he was satisfied. This was probably 10 years ago and mine fit
> perfectly out of the box.
>
> Just another reference....
>
> Charles McCall
> Raising Pantera Awareness Across Europe
> 1985 DeTomaso Pantera #9375
> http://www.poca.com/index.php/gallery/?g2_itemId=2323
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: detomaso-bounces at poca.com [mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com] On Behalf
> Of Julian Kift
> Sent: jueves, 10 de enero de 2013 19:14
> To: michael at michaelshortt.com; lotus0005 at hotmail.com
> Cc: detomaso at poca.com; De Tomaso List
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Two things ??
>
>
> I purchased California Car Covers top of the line outdoor cover for my son's
> Mustang which sits in the driveway mostly now he is away at College. I have
> to say I was and am pretty disappointed with what I got for the price, it's
> a thin cover that at the slightest breeze wants to blow off the car (even
> though I have the under car tie cable) and when it is on constantly is
> flapping against the paint, despite being a custom fit for make & model.
>
> I had a real nice cover previously for my wife's MG and that was a thick
> durable cover, with an outer reflective layer that was ideal for the NV
> desert sun and that cover fitted like a glove and weathered all conditions.
> FWIW I got it from Moss Motors, but I see it was a Silverguard by Cover
> King.
>
> With the full capsules in a humid environment you probably want to get one
> that connects to a small dehumidifier that runs constantly.
>
> Julian
>
>
>
>> From: michaelsavga at gmail.com
>> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 12:58:17 -0500
>> To: lotus0005 at hotmail.com
>> CC: detomaso at poca.com; detomaso at realbig.com
>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Two things ??
>>
>> For indoor storage, you want a breathable car cover, otherwise any
> moisture
>> is trapped under there - and that's were rust is born.
>>
>> If it was outside you could buy one of those cocoon things where the car
> is
>> zipped inside with lots of air space around it, but even then,
>>
>> ever notice how much condensation forms on the inside of a greenhouse?
>>
>> realbig was the old address, it is DEAD, poca is the new host site and
>> therefore should be the address that you use henceforth.
>>
>>
>> Michael
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 12:52 PM, Bill Lewis <lotus0005 at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I just saw that there are two detomaso sites: "realbig" and "poca." What
>>> is the difference?
>>> I'm looking at car storage bag systems in the California Car Cover
>>> catalog. Does anyone have any experience with them. One is an "Anti-Rust
>>> Storage Bag" that says, "...that protects from moisture and
> impurities...."
>>> The other one is the "Car Capsure Vehicle Storage System" that says,
>>> "...to prevent corrosion and mildew."
>>> -------------------------------I am in the Houston area, which means
> lots
>>> of humidity and heat. I keep my cars in enclosed garages, but I still
> get
>>> lots of dust and humidity. I would like to air condition the whole
> garage,
>>> but that is not practical for me, money wise. So, my concern is partly
>>> dust, but mainly humidity. Thanks, Bill
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>>
>>> DeTomaso mailing list
>>> DeTomaso at poca.com
>>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Michael L. Shortt
>> Savannah, Georgia
>> www.michaelshortt.com
>> michael at michaelshortt.com
>> 912-232-9390
>>
>>
>> This email is protected by the Electronic Communications Privacy
>> Act, 18 U.S.C. Sec. 2510-2521, is confidential and may be legally
>> privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified
>> that any retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this
>> communication is strictly prohibited. Please reply to the sender that you
>> have received this message in error, then delete it. Thank you
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>
>> DeTomaso mailing list
>> DeTomaso at poca.com
>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at poca.com
> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 20:11:12 +0100
> From: Charles McCall <charlesmccall at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Two things ??
> To: "'Julian Kift'" <julian_kift at hotmail.com>,
> <michael at michaelshortt.com>, <lotus0005 at hotmail.com>
> Cc: detomaso at poca.com, 'De Tomaso List' <detomaso at realbig.com>
> Message-ID: <000001cdef66$4280eaa0$c782bfe0$@gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> As a counterpoint, I bought a California Car Cover indoor cover based on
> Fred Terry's recommendation. I'm quite happy with mine.
>
> It fits my car like a glove - it is specifically made for a GT5-S with a
> delta wing. If you search the archives, you can read that Fred had some
> initial issues with the fitment, and he reported that CCC's customer service
> was extremely good in re-making and re-measuring and re-making the cover
> until he was satisfied. This was probably 10 years ago and mine fit
> perfectly out of the box.
>
> Just another reference....
>
> Charles McCall
> Raising Pantera Awareness Across Europe
> 1985 DeTomaso Pantera #9375
> http://www.poca.com/index.php/gallery/?g2_itemId=2323
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: detomaso-bounces at poca.com [mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com] On Behalf
> Of Julian Kift
> Sent: jueves, 10 de enero de 2013 19:14
> To: michael at michaelshortt.com; lotus0005 at hotmail.com
> Cc: detomaso at poca.com; De Tomaso List
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Two things ??
>
>
> I purchased California Car Covers top of the line outdoor cover for my son's
> Mustang which sits in the driveway mostly now he is away at College. I have
> to say I was and am pretty disappointed with what I got for the price, it's
> a thin cover that at the slightest breeze wants to blow off the car (even
> though I have the under car tie cable) and when it is on constantly is
> flapping against the paint, despite being a custom fit for make & model.
>
> I had a real nice cover previously for my wife's MG and that was a thick
> durable cover, with an outer reflective layer that was ideal for the NV
> desert sun and that cover fitted like a glove and weathered all conditions.
> FWIW I got it from Moss Motors, but I see it was a Silverguard by Cover
> King.
>
> With the full capsules in a humid environment you probably want to get one
> that connects to a small dehumidifier that runs constantly.
>
> Julian
>
>
>
>> From: michaelsavga at gmail.com
>> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 12:58:17 -0500
>> To: lotus0005 at hotmail.com
>> CC: detomaso at poca.com; detomaso at realbig.com
>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Two things ??
>>
>> For indoor storage, you want a breathable car cover, otherwise any
> moisture
>> is trapped under there - and that's were rust is born.
>>
>> If it was outside you could buy one of those cocoon things where the car
> is
>> zipped inside with lots of air space around it, but even then,
>>
>> ever notice how much condensation forms on the inside of a greenhouse?
>>
>> realbig was the old address, it is DEAD, poca is the new host site and
>> therefore should be the address that you use henceforth.
>>
>>
>> Michael
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 12:52 PM, Bill Lewis <lotus0005 at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I just saw that there are two detomaso sites: "realbig" and "poca." What
>>> is the difference?
>>> I'm looking at car storage bag systems in the California Car Cover
>>> catalog. Does anyone have any experience with them. One is an "Anti-Rust
>>> Storage Bag" that says, "...that protects from moisture and
> impurities...."
>>> The other one is the "Car Capsure Vehicle Storage System" that says,
>>> "...to prevent corrosion and mildew."
>>> -------------------------------I am in the Houston area, which means
> lots
>>> of humidity and heat. I keep my cars in enclosed garages, but I still
> get
>>> lots of dust and humidity. I would like to air condition the whole
> garage,
>>> but that is not practical for me, money wise. So, my concern is partly
>>> dust, but mainly humidity. Thanks, Bill
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>>
>>> DeTomaso mailing list
>>> DeTomaso at poca.com
>>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Michael L. Shortt
>> Savannah, Georgia
>> www.michaelshortt.com
>> michael at michaelshortt.com
>> 912-232-9390
>>
>>
>> This email is protected by the Electronic Communications Privacy
>> Act, 18 U.S.C. Sec. 2510-2521, is confidential and may be legally
>> privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified
>> that any retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this
>> communication is strictly prohibited. Please reply to the sender that you
>> have received this message in error, then delete it. Thank you
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>
>> DeTomaso mailing list
>> DeTomaso at poca.com
>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at poca.com
> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 14:38:38 -0500
> From: "michael at michaelshortt.com" <michaelsavga at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Ethanol "enriched" (diluted) fuel
> To: Paul Timko <thedrol at pobox.com>
> Cc: detomaso at poca.com
> Message-ID:
> <CAEWtxWqcqdNuYAqG1TnXtoT66Jc0neo+8Fid+SCftS0Xcf3e2Q at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> I suggest that you find a station that sells 100% gas and do you own
> experiment with this over several tank fulls and arrive at a real world
> conclusion, that's what I did.
>
> In addition to the cost about being the same, one could also look at the
> additional negative affects of ethanol on your car.
>
> I also liked the way the car performed better with 100% gas.
>
> Michael
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 2:34 PM, Paul Timko <thedrol at pobox.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm confused. I looked at the chart and E85 BTU deficit is indeed way
>> worse than 10%. It is down around 30%. But that's not the fuel I'm
>> referencing. My reference is to the 10% ethanol blend and cccording to the
>> chart, the blended fuels are more like 3% down on gasoline.
>>
>> Paul
>> #9270
>>
>> On 1/10/2013 12:41 PM, michael at michaelshortt.com wrote:
>>
>>> I would say that 10% is the upper good side, when I was testing, I was
>>> playing nice.
>>> I seriously doubt that it would have held up to only 10% worse under
>>> more aggressive
>>> driving.
>>>
>>> If you look at the chart I sent a link to see, the BTU deficit is much
>>> greater than 10% less.
>>>
>>> Michael
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 1:32 PM, Paul Timko <thedrol at pobox.com
>>> <mailto:thedrol at pobox.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm not doubting the less effectiveness of E85 or E10. I was
>>> commenting
>>> on Mike's claim that using E10 resulted in a 10% loss in MPG.
>>>
>>> Paul
>>> #9270
>>>
>>> On 1/10/2013 12:27 PM, michael at michaelshortt.com
>>> <mailto:michael at michaelshortt.**com <michael at michaelshortt.com>>
>>> wrote:
>>>> Here's more info that shows what a major screw job is being
>>> forced upon us.
>>>>
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/**Gasoline_gallon_equivalent<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_gallon_equivalent>
>>>>
>>>> Michael
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 1:19 PM, michael at michaelshortt.com
>>> <mailto:michael at michaelshortt.**com <michael at michaelshortt.com>>
>>>> <mailto:michael at michaelshortt.**com <michael at michaelshortt.com>
>>> <mailto:michael at michaelshortt.**com <michael at michaelshortt.com>>> <
>>> michaelsavga at gmail.com
>>> <mailto:michaelsavga at gmail.com**>
>>>> <mailto:michaelsavga at gmail.com <mailto:michaelsavga at gmail.com**>>>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Not using my own personal experience and multiple tanks of real
>>>> world testing.
>>>>
>>>> It is only done to subsidize the corn farmers and drive up
>>> the cost
>>>> of everything else as a result.
>>>>
>>>> a box of Corn Flakes is $4.00, just ridiculous.
>>>>
>>>> That keeps them buying $400,000 tractors every year on the govt
>>>> dime, so they can sell the old ones
>>>> and keep the money.
>>>>
>>>> Thousands of them ( one season old ) are shipped out of the
>>> country
>>>> every year, many right here in Savannah.
>>>>
>>>> Want to see photos of them, send me a email, I'll show you.
>>>>
>>>> Michael Shortt
>>>>
>>>> It's a F*&%^ing racket!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 1:10 PM, Paul Timko
>>> <thedrol at pobox.com <mailto:thedrol at pobox.com>
>>>> <mailto:thedrol at pobox.com <mailto:thedrol at pobox.com>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Burn 10% more fuel to make up for the 10% ethanol,
>>> doesn't make
>>>> sense.
>>>> There must be some energy in the ethanol... I think the
>>> actual
>>>> MPG drop
>>>> is around 3-4%
>>>>
>>>> Paul
>>>> #9270
>>>>
>>>> On 1/10/2013 11:09 AM, MikeLDrew at aol.com
>>> <mailto:MikeLDrew at aol.com>
>>>> <mailto:MikeLDrew at aol.com <mailto:MikeLDrew at aol.com>>
>>> wrote:
>>>>> one liter of diluted gas), what they fail to tell you
>>> is that
>>>> to travel a
>>>>> certain distance, you need to burn about 10 percent
>>> more fuel
>>>> if it is
>>>>> diluted.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike
>>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>>>
>>>>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>>>>
>>>>> DeTomaso mailing list
>>>>> DeTomaso at poca.com <mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com>
>>> <mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com <mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com>>
>>>>> http://poca.com/mailman/**listinfo/detomaso<http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso>
>>>>>
>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>>
>>>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>>>
>>>> DeTomaso mailing list
>>>> DeTomaso at poca.com <mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com>
>>> <mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com <mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com>>
>>>> http://poca.com/mailman/**listinfo/detomaso<http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Michael L. Shortt
>>>> Savannah, Georgia
>>>> www.michaelshortt.com <http://www.michaelshortt.com>
>>> <http://www.michaelshortt.com>
>>>> michael at michaelshortt.com <mailto:michael at michaelshortt.**com<michael at michaelshortt.com>
>>>>
>>> <mailto:michael at michaelshortt.**com <michael at michaelshortt.com><mailto:
>>> michael at michaelshortt.**com <michael at michaelshortt.com>>>
>>>> 912-232-9390 <tel:912-232-9390> <tel:912-232-9390 <tel:
>>> 912-232-9390>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This email is protected by the Electronic Communications
>>> Privacy
>>>> Act, 18 U.S.C. Sec. 2510-2521, is confidential and may be
>>> legally
>>>> privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are
>>> hereby
>>>> notified
>>>> that any retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of
>>> this
>>>> communication is strictly prohibited. Please reply to the
>>> sender
>>>> that you
>>>> have received this message in error, then delete it. Thank you
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Michael L. Shortt
>>>> Savannah, Georgia
>>>> www.michaelshortt.com <http://www.michaelshortt.com>
>>> <http://www.michaelshortt.com>
>>>> michael at michaelshortt.com <mailto:michael at michaelshortt.**com<michael at michaelshortt.com>
>>>>
>>> <mailto:michael at michaelshortt.**com <michael at michaelshortt.com><mailto:
>>> michael at michaelshortt.**com <michael at michaelshortt.com>>>
>>>> 912-232-9390 <tel:912-232-9390>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This email is protected by the Electronic Communications Privacy
>>>> Act, 18 U.S.C. Sec. 2510-2521, is confidential and may be legally
>>>> privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are
>>> hereby notified
>>>> that any retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this
>>>> communication is strictly prohibited. Please reply to the sender
>>> that you
>>>> have received this message in error, then delete it. Thank you
>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>
>>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>>
>>> DeTomaso mailing list
>>> DeTomaso at poca.com <mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com>
>>> http://poca.com/mailman/**listinfo/detomaso<http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Michael L. Shortt
>>> Savannah, Georgia
>>> www.michaelshortt.com <http://www.michaelshortt.com>
>>> michael at michaelshortt.com <mailto:michael at michaelshortt.**com<michael at michaelshortt.com>
>>>>
>>> 912-232-9390
>>>
>>>
>>> This email is protected by the Electronic Communications Privacy
>>> Act, 18 U.S.C. Sec. 2510-2521, is confidential and may be legally
>>> privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby
>>> notified
>>> that any retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this
>>> communication is strictly prohibited. Please reply to the sender that you
>>> have received this message in error, then delete it. Thank you
>>>
>>
>
>
> --
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Michael L. Shortt
> Savannah, Georgia
> www.michaelshortt.com
> michael at michaelshortt.com
> 912-232-9390
>
>
> This email is protected by the Electronic Communications Privacy
> Act, 18 U.S.C. Sec. 2510-2521, is confidential and may be legally
> privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified
> that any retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this
> communication is strictly prohibited. Please reply to the sender that you
> have received this message in error, then delete it. Thank you
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 12:40:13 -0700
> From: Ed Mendez <edducati at mac.com>
> Subject: [DeTomaso] 351w or 351c
> To: "detomaso at poca.com" <detomaso at poca.com>
> Message-ID: <A62BE8FF-1173-47C0-B000-EC715C213509 at mac.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII
>
> Hi all,
>
> My 71 Pantera has a built 351c in it now, I know the builder who did it and the previous owner (one of my best friends) so I know it is a well built engine and pretty radical, but it was done about 18 years ago and only broke in and started in the car but never driven; car has been in garage and off the road for 28 years. Also has a flat tapper cam. Neither of them can honestly remember what the internals or specs are, but knowing them it is as radical as you can get 18 years ago.
>
> I am sure it's a great motor, but I have the chance right now to obtain a fully built 351w new Dart Sportsman block (4 bolt splayed mains) and Dart Pro 1 CNC aluminum heads, Dart manifold and stroked to 427ci all scat internals with h-beam rods and full hydraulic roller motor. 634hp. I have an engine credit at a well established engine shop, so not going to cost me anything.
>
> My car is at a point that I can pull the motor now and do this.
>
> So, should I pull the trigger on the Winsor or just stay with the Cleveland?
>
> Does a Windsor decrease the value? Is it a good upgrade for value on the car?
>
> Or the other option is pull the Cleveland stroke it to 408, aluminum heads and roll prize it.
>
> If I do the Windsor should I keep or sell the Cleveland?
>
> So just want to get opinions for you guys.
>
> Thanks Ed
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 14:44:38 -0500
> From: "michael at michaelshortt.com" <michaelsavga at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 351w or 351c
> To: Ed Mendez <edducati at mac.com>
> Cc: "detomaso at poca.com" <detomaso at poca.com>
> Message-ID:
> <CAEWtxWqgYWTrTa_qrvJXmsiB=A2XRP-Jb1uiCrCSsgFEVAqdSw at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> My own two cents.
>
> Panteras have 351 Clevelands. Even I played with the car with the W ( not
> sure I would, other costs involved in switching it out )
> I would keep the Cleveland with the car.
>
> If this engine shop is that good, why not use a part of your credit to just
> freshen up the existing Cleveland and save the rest of your credit
> for another project or upgrades down the road.
>
> Michael.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 2:40 PM, Ed Mendez <edducati at mac.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> My 71 Pantera has a built 351c in it now, I know the builder who did it
>> and the previous owner (one of my best friends) so I know it is a well
>> built engine and pretty radical, but it was done about 18 years ago and
>> only broke in and started in the car but never driven; car has been in
>> garage and off the road for 28 years. Also has a flat tapper cam. Neither
>> of them can honestly remember what the internals or specs are, but knowing
>> them it is as radical as you can get 18 years ago.
>>
>> I am sure it's a great motor, but I have the chance right now to obtain a
>> fully built 351w new Dart Sportsman block (4 bolt splayed mains) and Dart
>> Pro 1 CNC aluminum heads, Dart manifold and stroked to 427ci all scat
>> internals with h-beam rods and full hydraulic roller motor. 634hp. I have
>> an engine credit at a well established engine shop, so not going to cost me
>> anything.
>>
>> My car is at a point that I can pull the motor now and do this.
>>
>> So, should I pull the trigger on the Winsor or just stay with the
>> Cleveland?
>>
>> Does a Windsor decrease the value? Is it a good upgrade for value on the
>> car?
>>
>> Or the other option is pull the Cleveland stroke it to 408, aluminum heads
>> and roll prize it.
>>
>> If I do the Windsor should I keep or sell the Cleveland?
>>
>> So just want to get opinions for you guys.
>>
>> Thanks Ed
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>
>> DeTomaso mailing list
>> DeTomaso at poca.com
>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>
>
>
>
> --
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Michael L. Shortt
> Savannah, Georgia
> www.michaelshortt.com
> michael at michaelshortt.com
> 912-232-9390
>
>
> This email is protected by the Electronic Communications Privacy
> Act, 18 U.S.C. Sec. 2510-2521, is confidential and may be legally
> privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified
> that any retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this
> communication is strictly prohibited. Please reply to the sender that you
> have received this message in error, then delete it. Thank you
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 14:46:50 -0500 (EST)
> From: JDeRyke at aol.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Ethanol "enriched" (diluted) fuel
> To: arkoch at earthlink.net, detomaso at poca.com
> Message-ID: <11c92.2266c0a3.3e2074aa at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
> Poor mileage is only one factor. According to some reports, the real
> problem is that ALL U.S. auto manufacturers will void any factory warranty on cars
> burning over 10% ethanol, due to the very high risk of engine damage. The
> Gov't is quietly fighting this battle, too but you'll not read anything in
> the liberal press on it.
> 10% is marginally OK if you can stand the drop in efficiency, and at that
> it better be a late model 'cause old cars don't work too well on even 10%
> unless specifically modified to accept it. Corrosion, rubber damage -the list
> goes on. One highly tuned 351-C Pantera I drove wouldn't even start on the
> starter on 10%; it had to be bump-started and when finally running, it pinged
> at IDLE. The owner degassed it and powered his lawn mower all summer with
> the stuff. FWIW- J Deryke
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 14:52:38 -0500
> From: "michael at michaelshortt.com" <michaelsavga at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Ethanol "enriched" (diluted) fuel
> To: JDeRyke at aol.com
> Cc: detomaso at poca.com, arkoch at earthlink.net
> Message-ID:
> <CAEWtxWo124pxoHLgFgOp7QvbVNkRY-4HDJb+k6mH9UaMP00EfA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Plus it doesn't last long, in cars that don't typically get driven lots of
> miles, not a good thing.
> 10% spoils in a 4-8 weeks.
>
> Michael
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 2:46 PM, <JDeRyke at aol.com> wrote:
>
>> Poor mileage is only one factor. According to some reports, the real
>> problem is that ALL U.S. auto manufacturers will void any factory warranty
>> on cars
>> burning over 10% ethanol, due to the very high risk of engine damage. The
>> Gov't is quietly fighting this battle, too but you'll not read anything in
>> the liberal press on it.
>> 10% is marginally OK if you can stand the drop in efficiency, and at that
>> it better be a late model 'cause old cars don't work too well on even 10%
>> unless specifically modified to accept it. Corrosion, rubber damage -the
>> list
>> goes on. One highly tuned 351-C Pantera I drove wouldn't even start on the
>> starter on 10%; it had to be bump-started and when finally running, it
>> pinged
>> at IDLE. The owner degassed it and powered his lawn mower all summer with
>> the stuff. FWIW- J Deryke
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>
>> DeTomaso mailing list
>> DeTomaso at poca.com
>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>
>
>
>
> --
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Michael L. Shortt
> Savannah, Georgia
> www.michaelshortt.com
> michael at michaelshortt.com
> 912-232-9390
>
>
> This email is protected by the Electronic Communications Privacy
> Act, 18 U.S.C. Sec. 2510-2521, is confidential and may be legally
> privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified
> that any retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this
> communication is strictly prohibited. Please reply to the sender that you
> have received this message in error, then delete it. Thank you
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 12:00:21 -0800
> From: Julian Kift <julian_kift at hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Ethanol "enriched" (diluted) fuel
> To: <michael at michaelshortt.com>, <thomas at hax.se>
> Cc: detomaso at poca.com
> Message-ID: <SNT116-W453F3E2F539443BD1D6D83952A0 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>
> Yes but "boat gas" is typically 93 octane, so you have 2 variables and your test cannot differentiate between Premium to Regular (straight) gas and regular straight gas to E10.
>
> Engines need to be optimized for flex fuels (compression ratio, timing etc.) soe of the mpg deficit can be gained back.
>
> Ethanol has less energy content, so it produces less power, the flex fuels (E10 & E85) used to be cheaper to offset that reduced energy content (which manifests in the lower mpg) however that differential has all but disappeared monetarily or where 10% ethanol is mandated is no longer able to be made.
>
> Don't get me wrong I'm not a proponent of ethanol fuels, just comparisons need to be controlled apples to apples experiments.
>
> Julian
>
>
>> From: michaelsavga at gmail.com
>> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 13:14:43 -0500
>> To: thomas at hax.se
>> CC: detomaso at poca.com
>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Ethanol "enriched" (diluted) fuel
>>
>> I did a similar experiment here last summer using 10% Ethanol Gas and 100%
>> "Boat" Gas.
>>
>> Almost to the penny, the extra 10% (.30 per gallon) cost of the "Boat" gas
>> was justified
>> in 10% better gas mileage in my Magnum R/T Hemi.
>>
>> I always run prem gas plus a bottle of Octane booster in the Pantera, so a
>> real head to head
>> comparison wasn't available for the Pantera, Boat gas is mid grade octane
>> level here.
>>
>> So it becomes a matter of being near the few stations where it is sold when
>> I need gas, you can absolutely feel the difference
>>
>> Here is a list of where you can buy it in the USA. http://pure-gas.org/
>>
>>
>> Michael Shortt
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 1:05 PM, Thomas Tornblom <thomas at hax.se> wrote:
>>
>>> 2013-01-10 17:37, Roland Jaeckel skrev:
>>>> We have 10 percent Ethanol over here without any issues in any car.
>>>> I think the swedes have up to 85 percent.
>>>
>>> We have E85, but you can't use that in non-flexfuel cars, or converted
>>> cars.
>>>
>>> You need about 30% more E85 than E5 for the same amount of work.
>>>
>>> My daughter has a VW Golf Multifuel, than runs on anything between E0
>>> and E85, and it consumes about 7l/100km on E5, but around 10l/100km on E85.
>>>
>>> I did an experiment on the Pantera, where I had three different EFI
>>> tunes (I can select up to 5 different tunes with a rotary switch). I
>>> started out with around 30% E85 and 70% E5, and I drove it up to the
>>> cabin, and I filled it with 100% E85 in the last major city before I
>>> arrived, and it ran good, but promptly blew a head gasket :(
>>>
>>> The only thing I changed in the tune was to lie to the engine management
>>> box that the injectors were smaller than they really are, so it
>>> calculated it needed longer duty-cycle to inject the correct amount of
>>> fuel.
>>>
>>> I'm not really blaming the fuel, but it was within about 30 km:s since I
>>> had filled it up with E85.
>>>
>>> I haven't experimented with E85 since ;)
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Thomas
>>>
>>>
>>>> Roland Jaeckel
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Dick Koch"<arkoch at earthlink.net>
>>>> To:<detomaso at poca.com>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 5:13 PM
>>>> Subject: [DeTomaso] Ethanol "enriched" (diluted) fuel
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> While the use of Ethanol diluted fuel has been discussed before, folks
>>>>> may be interested in viewing this video on the use of the Ethanol
>>>>> "enriched" fuel being pushed by the EPA.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://video.foxbusiness.com/v/2000862202001/
>>>>>
>>>>> From my standpoint, I would not use any Ethanol enriched fuel, not only
>>>>> in my Pantera, but any car or other equipment, such as generators or
>>>>> lawn equipment. A couple of web sites I use to identify Ethanol free
>>>>> fuel are:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://pure-gas.org/
>>>>>
>>> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=air.htapps.ethanolfreegas&hl=en
>>>>>
>>>>> Dick Koch
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>
>>>>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>>>>
>>>>> DeTomaso mailing list
>>>>> DeTomaso at poca.com
>>>>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>
>>>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>>>
>>>> DeTomaso mailing list
>>>> DeTomaso at poca.com
>>>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>>>
>>>> !DSPAM:50eeee5810750021468!
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Real life: Thomas T?rnblom Email: thomas at hax.se
>>> Snail mail: Banvallsv?gen 14 Phone: +46 18 32 31 18
>>> S - 754 40 Uppsala, Sweden Mobile: +46 76 209 8320
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>>
>>> DeTomaso mailing list
>>> DeTomaso at poca.com
>>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Michael L. Shortt
>> Savannah, Georgia
>> www.michaelshortt.com
>> michael at michaelshortt.com
>> 912-232-9390
>>
>>
>> This email is protected by the Electronic Communications Privacy
>> Act, 18 U.S.C. Sec. 2510-2521, is confidential and may be legally
>> privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified
>> that any retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this
>> communication is strictly prohibited. Please reply to the sender that you
>> have received this message in error, then delete it. Thank you
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>
>> DeTomaso mailing list
>> DeTomaso at poca.com
>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 20:08:50 +0000 (UTC)
> From: shawkins777 at comcast.net
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 351w or 351c
> Cc: detomaso at poca.com
> Message-ID:
> <341722002.2161163.1357848530222.JavaMail.root at sz0134a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> Put the 351W in and keep the 351C as a back-up. You'll have to change the motor mounts though.
>
> Steve
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ed Mendez" <edducati at mac.com>
> To: detomaso at poca.com
> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 1:40:13 PM
> Subject: [DeTomaso] 351w or 351c
>
> Hi all,
>
> My 71 Pantera has a built 351c in it now, I know the builder who did it and the previous owner (one of my best friends) so I know it is a well built engine and pretty radical, but it was done about 18 years ago and only broke in and started in the car but never driven; car has been in garage and off the road for 28 years. Also has a flat tapper cam. Neither of them can honestly remember what the internals or specs are, but knowing them it is as radical as you can get 18 years ago.
>
> I am sure it's a great motor, but I have the chance right now to obtain a fully built 351w new Dart Sportsman block (4 bolt splayed mains) and Dart Pro 1 CNC aluminum heads, Dart manifold and stroked to 427ci all scat internals with h-beam rods and full hydraulic roller motor. 634hp. I have an engine credit at a well established engine shop, so not going to cost me anything.
>
> My car is at a point that I can pull the motor now and do this.
>
> So, should I pull the trigger on the Winsor or just stay with the Cleveland?
>
> Does a Windsor decrease the value? Is it a good upgrade for value on the car?
>
> Or the other option is pull the Cleveland stroke it to 408, aluminum heads and roll prize it.
>
> If I do the Windsor should I keep or sell the Cleveland?
>
> So just want to get opinions for you guys.
>
> Thanks Ed
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
> _______________________________________________
>
> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at poca.com
> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 12:23:34 -0800 (PST)
> From: LS <lashdeep at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 351w or 351c
> To: Ed Mendez <edducati at mac.com>, "detomaso at poca.com"
> <detomaso at poca.com>
> Message-ID:
> <1357849414.57431.YahooMailNeo at web120202.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> Have you driven the car at all with the Cleveland?
>
> You may like the characteristics and power delivery of one over the other...and then there's the difference in sound...
>
>
> ?
>
>
>
> central
> wines-spirits?? est 1934
>
>
> 625 e street nw
>
> washington, dc 20004
>
> centralwines.com
>
>
> facebook.com/CentralLiquors
>
>
> 202-737-2800
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Ed Mendez <edducati at mac.com>
> To: "detomaso at poca.com" <detomaso at poca.com>
> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 2:40 PM
> Subject: [DeTomaso] 351w or 351c
>
> Hi all,
>
> My 71 Pantera has a built 351c in it now, I know the builder who did it and the previous owner (one of my best friends) so I know it is a well built engine and pretty radical, but it was done about 18 years ago and only broke in and started in the car but never driven; car has been in garage and off the road for 28 years. Also has a flat tapper cam. Neither of them can honestly remember what the internals or specs are, but knowing them it is as radical as you can get 18 years ago.
>
> I am sure it's a great motor, but I have the chance right now to obtain a fully built 351w new Dart Sportsman block (4 bolt splayed mains) and Dart Pro 1 CNC aluminum heads, Dart manifold and stroked to 427ci all scat internals with h-beam rods and full hydraulic roller motor. 634hp. I have an engine credit at a well established engine shop, so not going to cost me anything.
>
> My car is at a point that I can pull the motor now and do this.
>
> So, should I pull the trigger on the Winsor or just stay with the Cleveland?
>
> Does a Windsor decrease the value? Is it a good upgrade for value on the car?
>
> Or the other option is pull the Cleveland stroke it to 408, aluminum heads and roll prize it.
>
> If I do the Windsor should I keep or sell the Cleveland?
>
> So just want to get opinions for you guys.
>
> Thanks Ed
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
> _______________________________________________
>
> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at poca.com
> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 12
> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 14:24:43 -0600
> From: Daniel C Jones <daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 351w or 351c
> To: detomaso at poca.com
> Message-ID:
> <CAD=EzWVE+px0yK+vDsiKuHzAmqm4ggFz+wp1Jo8RnPun2Dfc+g at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
>> Put the 351W in and keep the 351C as a back-up. You'll have to change the motor mounts though.
>
> Cleveland and Windsor motor mounts are the same, as is the bell
> housing. You'll have to change headers (may need custom fabrication
> if the Dart heads use a raised port location) and you'll need to
> change coolant tubes and other miscellaneous stuff.
>
> Dan Jones
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 13
> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 15:24:57 -0500 (EST)
> From: MikeLDrew at aol.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 351w or 351c
> To: shawkins777 at comcast.net
> Cc: detomaso at poca.com
> Message-ID: <17060.4eb81f5f.3e207d99 at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
>
> In a message dated 1/10/13 12 14 18, shawkins777 at comcast.net writes:
>
>
>> Put the 351W in and keep the 351C as a back-up. You'll have to change the
>> motor mounts though.
>>
>
>>>> 351W and 351C use exactly the same motor mounts. Different headers,
> water plumbing, and a bunch of other small stuff, but the same motor
> mounts....
>
> Mike
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 14
> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 15:25:01 -0500 (EST)
> From: MikeLDrew at aol.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] January Auction Pantera's
> To: julian_kift at hotmail.com, wheller at studley.com, detomaso at poca.com
> Message-ID: <17066.7a982502.3e207d9d at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
>
> In a message dated 1/10/13 10 25 29, julian_kift at hotmail.com writes:
>
>
>> Information is sparse on the Mecum listing, no license plate shot or VIN
>> # for an identification. With a call Mecum should be willing to give you a
>> VIN# (last 4 digits) for purposes of investigating the cars history.
>>
>
>>>> The car has a Body Service Number tag, and those didn't come into play
> until very late in the Pre-L game, sometime around #4000. So it's going to
> be THPNMD04XXX, somewhere between 4000-ish and 4268.
>
> Mike
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 15
> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 12:25:45 -0800 (PST)
> From: Curt Hall <cuvee at sbcglobal.net>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Two things ??
> To: lotus0005 at hotmail.com, detomaso at realbig.com, detomaso at poca.com,
> MikeLDrew at aol.com
> Message-ID:
> <1357849545.83247.YahooMailClassic at web181305.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
>
> (Kind of like when a woman gets married, she takes
> her husband's name.?But she's still the same woman. :>)
> ?
> Baw ha ha ha...Yea Right!
> ?
>
>
>
> --- On Thu, 1/10/13, MikeLDrew at aol.com <MikeLDrew at aol.com> wrote:
>
>
> From: MikeLDrew at aol.com <MikeLDrew at aol.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Two things ??
> To: lotus0005 at hotmail.com, detomaso at realbig.com, detomaso at poca.com
> Date: Thursday, January 10, 2013, 10:12 AM
>
>
>
> In a message dated 1/10/13 9 53 7, lotus0005 at hotmail.com writes:
>
>
>>
>> I just saw that there are two detomaso sites:? "realbig" and "poca."? What
>> is the difference?
>>
>
>>>> Realbig became POCA.???Kind of like when a woman gets married, she takes
> her husband's name.???But she's still the same woman. :>)
>
> Mike
> _______________________________________________
>
> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at poca.com
> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 16
> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 12:25:45 -0800 (PST)
> From: Curt Hall <cuvee at sbcglobal.net>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Two things ??
> To: lotus0005 at hotmail.com, detomaso at realbig.com, detomaso at poca.com,
> MikeLDrew at aol.com
> Message-ID:
> <1357849545.83247.YahooMailClassic at web181305.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
>
> (Kind of like when a woman gets married, she takes
> her husband's name.?But she's still the same woman. :>)
> ?
> Baw ha ha ha...Yea Right!
> ?
>
>
>
> --- On Thu, 1/10/13, MikeLDrew at aol.com <MikeLDrew at aol.com> wrote:
>
>
> From: MikeLDrew at aol.com <MikeLDrew at aol.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Two things ??
> To: lotus0005 at hotmail.com, detomaso at realbig.com, detomaso at poca.com
> Date: Thursday, January 10, 2013, 10:12 AM
>
>
>
> In a message dated 1/10/13 9 53 7, lotus0005 at hotmail.com writes:
>
>
>>
>> I just saw that there are two detomaso sites:? "realbig" and "poca."? What
>> is the difference?
>>
>
>>>> Realbig became POCA.???Kind of like when a woman gets married, she takes
> her husband's name.???But she's still the same woman. :>)
>
> Mike
> _______________________________________________
>
> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at poca.com
> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 17
> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 14:29:04 -0600
> From: Daniel C Jones <daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 351w or 351c
> To: "detomaso at poca.com" <detomaso at poca.com>
> Message-ID:
> <CAD=EzWUfNw_dY9jLx__7QiJi994cTQaKynUz05tuC9Y0_D8k3g at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
>> So, should I pull the trigger on the Windsor or just stay with the Cleveland?
>
> Is the choice between a free 427W or paying for a 408C or would either
> engine be free due to your shop credit?
>
> Dan Jones
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 18
> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 15:35:09 -0500
> From: "michael at michaelshortt.com" <michaelsavga at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Ethanol "enriched" (diluted) fuel
> To: Julian Kift <julian_kift at hotmail.com>
> Cc: detomaso at poca.com
> Message-ID:
> <CAEWtxWo+m5f-r-LJ=vqwTVzFmXJmzkDuevTVHOJNcJk9rTUJ5Q at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> which is why I used middle grade gas in my experiment as well, same octane
> level (91 for boat gas here ).
>
> Michael
>
> There is no 93 octane available here in boat gas or else it would be in the
> Pantera always.
> and I wouldn't be spending another 11.99 per tank on octane booster to keep
> it from dieseling
> at shutdown.
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 3:00 PM, Julian Kift <julian_kift at hotmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Yes but "boat gas" is typically 93 octane, so you have 2 variables and
>> your test cannot differentiate between Premium to Regular (straight)
>> gas and regular straight gas to E10.
>>
>> Engines need to be optimized for flex fuels (compression ratio, timing
>> etc.) soe of the mpg deficit can be gained back.
>>
>> Ethanol has less energy content, so it produces less power, the flex fuels
>> (E10 & E85) used to be cheaper to offset that reduced energy content (which
>> manifests in the lower mpg) however that differential has all but
>> disappeared monetarily or where 10% ethanol is mandated is no longer able
>> to be made.
>>
>> Don't get me wrong I'm not a proponent of ethanol fuels, just comparisons
>> need to be controlled apples to apples experiments.
>>
>> Julian
>>
>>> From: michaelsavga at gmail.com
>>> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 13:14:43 -0500
>>> To: thomas at hax.se
>>> CC: detomaso at poca.com
>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Ethanol "enriched" (diluted) fuel
>>>
>>> I did a similar experiment here last summer using 10% Ethanol Gas and
>> 100%
>>> "Boat" Gas.
>>>
>>> Almost to the penny, the extra 10% (.30 per gallon) cost of the "Boat"
>> gas
>>> was justified
>>> in 10% better gas mileage in my Magnum R/T Hemi.
>>>
>>> I always run prem gas plus a bottle of Octane booster in the Pantera, so
>> a
>>> real head to head
>>> comparison wasn't available for the Pantera, Boat gas is mid grade octane
>>> level here.
>>>
>>> So it becomes a matter of being near the few stations where it is sold
>> when
>>> I need gas, you can absolutely feel the difference
>>>
>>> Here is a list of where you can buy it in the USA. http://pure-gas.org/
>>>
>>>
>>> Michael Shortt
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 1:05 PM, Thomas Tornblom <thomas at hax.se> wrote:
>>>
>>>> 2013-01-10 17:37, Roland Jaeckel skrev:
>>>>> We have 10 percent Ethanol over here without any issues in any car.
>>>>> I think the swedes have up to 85 percent.
>>>>
>>>> We have E85, but you can't use that in non-flexfuel cars, or converted
>>>> cars.
>>>>
>>>> You need about 30% more E85 than E5 for the same amount of work.
>>>>
>>>> My daughter has a VW Golf Multifuel, than runs on anything between E0
>>>> and E85, and it consumes about 7l/100km on E5, but around 10l/100km on
>> E85.
>>>>
>>>> I did an experiment on the Pantera, where I had three different EFI
>>>> tunes (I can select up to 5 different tunes with a rotary switch). I
>>>> started out with around 30% E85 and 70% E5, and I drove it up to the
>>>> cabin, and I filled it with 100% E85 in the last major city before I
>>>> arrived, and it ran good, but promptly blew a head gasket :(
>>>>
>>>> The only thing I changed in the tune was to lie to the engine
>> management
>>>> box that the injectors were smaller than they really are, so it
>>>> calculated it needed longer duty-cycle to inject the correct amount of
>>>> fuel.
>>>>
>>>> I'm not really blaming the fuel, but it was within about 30 km:s since
>> I
>>>> had filled it up with E85.
>>>>
>>>> I haven't experimented with E85 since ;)
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Thomas
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Roland Jaeckel
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Dick Koch"<arkoch at earthlink.net>
>>>>> To:<detomaso at poca.com>
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 5:13 PM
>>>>> Subject: [DeTomaso] Ethanol "enriched" (diluted) fuel
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> While the use of Ethanol diluted fuel has been discussed before,
>> folks
>>>>>> may be interested in viewing this video on the use of the Ethanol
>>>>>> "enriched" fuel being pushed by the EPA.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://video.foxbusiness.com/v/2000862202001/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From my standpoint, I would not use any Ethanol enriched fuel, not
>> only
>>>>>> in my Pantera, but any car or other equipment, such as generators or
>>>>>> lawn equipment. A couple of web sites I use to identify Ethanol free
>>>>>> fuel are:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://pure-gas.org/
>>>>>>
>>>>
>> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=air.htapps.ethanolfreegas&hl=en
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dick Koch
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>>>>>
>>>>>> DeTomaso mailing list
>>>>>> DeTomaso at poca.com
>>>>>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>
>>>>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>>>>
>>>>> DeTomaso mailing list
>>>>> DeTomaso at poca.com
>>>>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>>>>
>>>>> !DSPAM:50eeee5810750021468!
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Real life: Thomas T?rnblom Email: thomas at hax.se
>>>> Snail mail: Banvallsv?gen 14 Phone: +46 18 32 31 18
>>>> S - 754 40 Uppsala, Sweden Mobile: +46 76 209 8320
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>
>>>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>>>
>>>> DeTomaso mailing list
>>>> DeTomaso at poca.com
>>>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Michael L. Shortt
>>> Savannah, Georgia
>>> www.michaelshortt.com
>>> michael at michaelshortt.com
>>> 912-232-9390
>>>
>>>
>>> This email is protected by the Electronic Communications Privacy
>>> Act, 18 U.S.C. Sec. 2510-2521, is confidential and may be legally
>>> privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby
>> notified
>>> that any retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this
>>> communication is strictly prohibited. Please reply to the sender that you
>>> have received this message in error, then delete it. Thank you
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>>
>>> DeTomaso mailing list
>>> DeTomaso at poca.com
>>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>
>
>
>
> --
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Michael L. Shortt
> Savannah, Georgia
> www.michaelshortt.com
> michael at michaelshortt.com
> 912-232-9390
>
>
> This email is protected by the Electronic Communications Privacy
> Act, 18 U.S.C. Sec. 2510-2521, is confidential and may be legally
> privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified
> that any retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this
> communication is strictly prohibited. Please reply to the sender that you
> have received this message in error, then delete it. Thank you
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 19
> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 12:48:59 -0800 (PST)
> From: Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 351w or 351c
> To: LS <lashdeep at yahoo.com>, Ed Mendez <edducati at mac.com>,
> "detomaso at poca.com" <detomaso at poca.com>
> Message-ID:
> <1357850939.31403.YahooMailNeo at web162504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> I thought the sound might be different because different SBFs can have different firing orders?? If that is what creates the difference in sound, is there any reason why you can't use the 351C firing order in a custom built 351W?? Other than firing order, it seems like the cam, heads, headers, etc. will determine how the car sounds regardless of having a Cleveland or Windsor block.
> ?
> Ken
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: LS <lashdeep at yahoo.com>
> To: Ed Mendez <edducati at mac.com>; "detomaso at poca.com" <detomaso at poca.com>
> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 12:23 PM
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 351w or 351c
>
> Have you driven the car at all with the Cleveland?
>
> You may like the characteristics and power delivery of one over the other...and then there's the difference in sound...
>
>
> ?
>
>
>
> central
> wines-spirits?? est 1934
>
>
> 625 e street nw
>
> washington, dc 20004
>
> centralwines.com
>
>
> facebook.com/CentralLiquors
>
>
> 202-737-2800
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Ed Mendez <edducati at mac.com>
> To: "detomaso at poca.com" <detomaso at poca.com>
> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 2:40 PM
> Subject: [DeTomaso] 351w or 351c
>
> Hi all,
>
> My 71 Pantera has a built 351c in it now, I know the builder who did it and the previous owner (one of my best friends) so I know it is a well built engine and pretty radical, but it was done about 18 years ago and only broke in and started in the car but never driven; car has been in garage and off the road for 28 years. Also has a flat tapper cam. Neither of them can honestly remember what the internals or specs are, but knowing them it is as radical as you can get 18 years ago.
>
> I am sure it's a great motor, but I have the chance right now to obtain a fully built 351w new Dart Sportsman block (4 bolt splayed mains) and Dart Pro 1 CNC aluminum heads, Dart manifold and stroked to 427ci all scat internals with h-beam rods and full hydraulic roller motor. 634hp. I have an engine credit at a well established engine shop, so not going to cost me anything.
>
> My car is at a point that I can pull the motor now and do this.
>
> So, should I pull the trigger on the Winsor or just stay with the Cleveland?
>
> Does a Windsor decrease the value? Is it a good upgrade for value on the car?
>
> Or the other option is pull the Cleveland stroke it to 408, aluminum heads and roll prize it.
>
> If I do the Windsor should I keep or sell the Cleveland?
>
> So just want to get opinions for you guys.
>
> Thanks Ed
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
> _______________________________________________
>
> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at poca.com
> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> _______________________________________________
>
> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at poca.com
> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 20
> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 12:55:45 -0800 (PST)
> From: Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 351w or 351c
> To: Ed Mendez <edducati at mac.com>, "detomaso at poca.com"
> <detomaso at poca.com>
> Message-ID:
> <1357851345.63492.YahooMailNeo at web162502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> I'd drive it as it is and enjoy it.? My experience is that if you want to drive it a lot, you'll get tired of the radical?cam and want something a bit milder.? If you have another engine built now with a big cam etc., and get tired of it, you will have to start over again.
> ?
> I guess it all depends on your intended use.? If you just plan to drive to club events, it seems like a lot of trouble to swap motors.? If you want to drive across the country, you may end up wanted a moderate build with EFI.
> ?
> Ken
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Ed Mendez <edducati at mac.com>
> To: "detomaso at poca.com" <detomaso at poca.com>
> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 11:40 AM
> Subject: [DeTomaso] 351w or 351c
>
> Hi all,
>
> My 71 Pantera has a built 351c in it now, I know the builder who did it and the previous owner (one of my best friends) so I know it is a well built engine and pretty radical, but it was done about 18 years ago and only broke in and started in the car but never driven; car has been in garage and off the road for 28 years. Also has a flat tapper cam. Neither of them can honestly remember what the internals or specs are, but knowing them it is as radical as you can get 18 years ago.
>
> I am sure it's a great motor, but I have the chance right now to obtain a fully built 351w new Dart Sportsman block (4 bolt splayed mains) and Dart Pro 1 CNC aluminum heads, Dart manifold and stroked to 427ci all scat internals with h-beam rods and full hydraulic roller motor. 634hp. I have an engine credit at a well established engine shop, so not going to cost me anything.
>
> My car is at a point that I can pull the motor now and do this.
>
> So, should I pull the trigger on the Winsor or just stay with the Cleveland?
>
> Does a Windsor decrease the value? Is it a good upgrade for value on the car?
>
> Or the other option is pull the Cleveland stroke it to 408, aluminum heads and roll prize it.
>
> If I do the Windsor should I keep or sell the Cleveland?
>
> So just want to get opinions for you guys.
>
> Thanks Ed
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
> _______________________________________________
>
> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at poca.com
> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 21
> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 15:58:05 -0500
> From: "michael at michaelshortt.com" <michaelsavga at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 351w or 351c
> To: Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com>
> Cc: "detomaso at poca.com" <detomaso at poca.com>, Ed Mendez
> <edducati at mac.com>
> Message-ID:
> <CAEWtxWrS1b-QS4eqQN+1v4zXPTPEo7oq-S=kkTpDn8=GR3u3Kg at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> I think the cranks are really different and that would prevent changing the
> firing order.
>
> Michael
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 3:48 PM, Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> I thought the sound might be different because different SBFs can have
>> different firing orders? If that is what creates the difference in sound,
>> is there any reason why you can't use the 351C firing order in a custom
>> built 351W? Other than firing order, it seems like the cam, heads,
>> headers, etc. will determine how the car sounds regardless of having a
>> Cleveland or Windsor block.
>>
>> Ken
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: LS <lashdeep at yahoo.com>
>> To: Ed Mendez <edducati at mac.com>; "detomaso at poca.com" <detomaso at poca.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 12:23 PM
>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 351w or 351c
>>
>> Have you driven the car at all with the Cleveland?
>>
>> You may like the characteristics and power delivery of one over the
>> other...and then there's the difference in sound...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> central
>> wines-spirits est 1934
>>
>>
>> 625 e street nw
>>
>> washington, dc 20004
>>
>> centralwines.com
>>
>>
>> facebook.com/CentralLiquors
>>
>>
>> 202-737-2800
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Ed Mendez <edducati at mac.com>
>> To: "detomaso at poca.com" <detomaso at poca.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 2:40 PM
>> Subject: [DeTomaso] 351w or 351c
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> My 71 Pantera has a built 351c in it now, I know the builder who did it
>> and the previous owner (one of my best friends) so I know it is a well
>> built engine and pretty radical, but it was done about 18 years ago and
>> only broke in and started in the car but never driven; car has been in
>> garage and off the road for 28 years. Also has a flat tapper cam. Neither
>> of them can honestly remember what the internals or specs are, but knowing
>> them it is as radical as you can get 18 years ago.
>>
>> I am sure it's a great motor, but I have the chance right now to obtain a
>> fully built 351w new Dart Sportsman block (4 bolt splayed mains) and Dart
>> Pro 1 CNC aluminum heads, Dart manifold and stroked to 427ci all scat
>> internals with h-beam rods and full hydraulic roller motor. 634hp. I have
>> an engine credit at a well established engine shop, so not going to cost me
>> anything.
>>
>> My car is at a point that I can pull the motor now and do this.
>>
>> So, should I pull the trigger on the Winsor or just stay with the
>> Cleveland?
>>
>> Does a Windsor decrease the value? Is it a good upgrade for value on the
>> car?
>>
>> Or the other option is pull the Cleveland stroke it to 408, aluminum heads
>> and roll prize it.
>>
>> If I do the Windsor should I keep or sell the Cleveland?
>>
>> So just want to get opinions for you guys.
>>
>> Thanks Ed
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>
>> DeTomaso mailing list
>> DeTomaso at poca.com
>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>
>> DeTomaso mailing list
>> DeTomaso at poca.com
>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>
>> DeTomaso mailing list
>> DeTomaso at poca.com
>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>
>
>
>
> --
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Michael L. Shortt
> Savannah, Georgia
> www.michaelshortt.com
> michael at michaelshortt.com
> 912-232-9390
>
>
> This email is protected by the Electronic Communications Privacy
> Act, 18 U.S.C. Sec. 2510-2521, is confidential and may be legally
> privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified
> that any retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this
> communication is strictly prohibited. Please reply to the sender that you
> have received this message in error, then delete it. Thank you
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 22
> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 16:01:30 -0500
> From: Dave <dave at damardirect.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Ethanol "enriched" (diluted) fuel
> To: "MikeLDrew at aol.com" <MikeLDrew at aol.com>, "pantera874 at t-online.de"
> <pantera874 at t-online.de>, "arkoch at earthlink.net"
> <arkoch at earthlink.net>, "detomaso at poca.com" <detomaso at poca.com>
> Message-ID:
> <BF2E96FA630B704D89F8B22E4284D550034C90E6 at tbfg-dc-vm028.bgdc3.local>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Out here in corn country, pure unadulterated unleaded (no ethanol) is about 20% more espensive. I have to travel about 40 miles to get it.
> So 20% more expensive. Gains about 10% more mileage. Hmmm.
> IndyDave
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: MikeLDrew at aol.com [mailto:MikeLDrew at aol.com]
> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 12:10 PM
> To: pantera874 at t-online.de; arkoch at earthlink.net; detomaso at poca.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Ethanol "enriched" (diluted) fuel
>
>
> In a message dated 1/10/13 8 37 35, pantera874 at t-online.de writes:
>
>
>> We have 10 percent Ethanol over here without any issues in any car.
>>
>>>> Except for greatly reduced fuel economy, which nobody seems to notice.
> There is much less energy in a given quantity of gas diluted with ethanol,
> so you need to use more throttle to achieve a given speed. While the fuel
> burns more cleanly by volume (one liter of gas puts out more pollution than one liter of diluted gas), what they fail to tell you is that to travel a certain distance, you need to burn about 10 percent more fuel if it is
> diluted. So you actually spend more money, and the pollution generated is almost
> exactly the same because you burn more of the cleaner fuel. The only
> winners are the farmers who are growing corn to dilute gasoline instead of feeding people, and the politicians who have corn-generated money flowing into their pockets.
>
> The first time I encountered diluted gas was in 1989 when I rode my
> motorcycle across the USA. I was getting a very consistent range per tank of fuel
> until I hit corn country, then suddenly, I was having to stop and refuel
> more often. I thought something had gone drastically wrong with my engine.
> But when I got to the east coast, and was buying pure gas again, everything was fine.
>
> Since then, diluted gas has swept the country. In California, they made
> it illegal to sell gas that is NOT diluted, so we have no choice here. :<(
>
>>> I think the swedes have up to 85 percent.
>>
>>>> We have that here too, in some areas of the country (where corn is
> grown). There are some flex-fuel vehicles designed to run on that stuff, and
> they do just fine with it.
>
> Mike
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 23
> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 13:07:03 -0800 (PST)
> From: Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 351w or 351c
> To: "michael at michaelshortt.com" <michael at michaelshortt.com>
> Cc: "detomaso at poca.com" <detomaso at poca.com>, Ed Mendez
> <edducati at mac.com>
> Message-ID:
> <1357852023.29403.YahooMailNeo at web162505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> I hate the details...?? I'd have to defer to someone who knows more than I do on this, but I think within limitations, you can play with the firing order without changing the crank, but you can only swap the compression and exhaust strokes between cylinders???
> ?
> Ken
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: "michael at michaelshortt.com" <michaelsavga at gmail.com>
> To: Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com>
> Cc: "detomaso at poca.com" <detomaso at poca.com>; Ed Mendez <edducati at mac.com>
> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 12:58 PM
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 351w or 351c
>
> I think the cranks are really different and that would prevent changing the
> firing order.
>
> Michael
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 3:48 PM, Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> I thought the sound might be different because different SBFs can have
>> different firing orders?? If that is what creates the difference in sound,
>> is there any reason why you can't use the 351C firing order in a custom
>> built 351W?? Other than firing order, it seems like the cam, heads,
>> headers, etc. will determine how the car sounds regardless of having a
>> Cleveland or Windsor block.
>>
>> Ken
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: LS <lashdeep at yahoo.com>
>> To: Ed Mendez <edducati at mac.com>; "detomaso at poca.com" <detomaso at poca.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 12:23 PM
>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 351w or 351c
>>
>> Have you driven the car at all with the Cleveland?
>>
>> You may like the characteristics and power delivery of one over the
>> other...and then there's the difference in sound...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> central
>> wines-spirits? est 1934
>>
>>
>> 625 e street nw
>>
>> washington, dc 20004
>>
>> centralwines.com
>>
>>
>> facebook.com/CentralLiquors
>>
>>
>> 202-737-2800
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Ed Mendez <edducati at mac.com>
>> To: "detomaso at poca.com" <detomaso at poca.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 2:40 PM
>> Subject: [DeTomaso] 351w or 351c
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> My 71 Pantera has a built 351c in it now, I know the builder who did it
>> and the previous owner (one of my best friends) so I know it is a well
>> built engine and pretty radical, but it was done about 18 years ago and
>> only broke in and started in the car but never driven; car has been in
>> garage and off the road for 28 years. Also has a flat tapper cam. Neither
>> of them can honestly remember what the internals or specs are, but knowing
>> them it is as radical as you can get 18 years ago.
>>
>> I am sure it's a great motor, but I have the chance right now to obtain a
>> fully built 351w new Dart Sportsman block (4 bolt splayed mains) and Dart
>> Pro 1 CNC aluminum heads, Dart manifold and stroked to 427ci all scat
>> internals with h-beam rods and full hydraulic roller motor. 634hp. I have
>> an engine credit at a well established engine shop, so not going to cost me
>> anything.
>>
>> My car is at a point that I can pull the motor now and do this.
>>
>> So, should I pull the trigger on the Winsor or just stay with the
>> Cleveland?
>>
>> Does a Windsor decrease the value? Is it a good upgrade for value on the
>> car?
>>
>> Or the other option is pull the Cleveland stroke it to 408, aluminum heads
>> and roll prize it.
>>
>> If I do the Windsor should I keep or sell the Cleveland?
>>
>> So just want to get opinions for you guys.
>>
>> Thanks Ed
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>
>> DeTomaso mailing list
>> DeTomaso at poca.com
>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>
>> DeTomaso mailing list
>> DeTomaso at poca.com
>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>
>> DeTomaso mailing list
>> DeTomaso at poca.com
>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>
>
>
>
> --
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Michael L. Shortt
> Savannah, Georgia
> http://www.michaelshortt.com/
> michael at michaelshortt.com
> 912-232-9390
>
>
> This email is protected by the Electronic Communications Privacy
> Act, 18 U.S.C. Sec. 2510-2521, is confidential and may be legally
> privileged.? If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified
> that any retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this
> communication is strictly prohibited.? Please reply to the sender that you
> have received this message in error, then delete it.? Thank you
> _______________________________________________
>
> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at poca.com
> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 24
> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 13:17:16 -0800 (PST)
> From: Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com>
> Subject: [DeTomaso] Inspection scope specs to fit through plug hole?
> To: "detomaso at poca.com" <detomaso at poca.com>
> Message-ID:
> <1357852636.52482.YahooMailNeo at web162505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> Does anyone know the max camera diameter and minimum focal length to look through a sparkplug hole into the combustion chamber?
> ?
> Ken
>
>
> ________________________________
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 25
> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 15:18:49 -0600
> From: Jerry Knotts <knottsj at galstar.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 351w or 351c
> To: detomaso at poca.com
> Message-ID: <50EF3039.4020009 at galstar.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
>
> I think you only have to change the cam to adjust the firing order. Had
> an engine built 10 years ago and the builder got a deal on a Cleveland
> firing order Windsor cam. It took HP Motorsports nearly a day to figure
> it out and get the engine running. That was only the tip of the iceberg
> on that engine, so to speak.
>
> jerry
>
> On 1/10/2013 3:07 PM, Ken Green wrote:
>> I hate the details... I'd have to defer to someone who knows more than I do on this, but I think within limitations, you can play with the firing order without changing the crank, but you can only swap the compression and exhaust strokes between cylinders???
>>
>> Ken
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: "michael at michaelshortt.com" <michaelsavga at gmail.com>
>> To: Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com>
>> Cc: "detomaso at poca.com" <detomaso at poca.com>; Ed Mendez <edducati at mac.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 12:58 PM
>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 351w or 351c
>>
>> I think the cranks are really different and that would prevent changing the
>> firing order.
>>
>> Michael
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 3:48 PM, Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I thought the sound might be different because different SBFs can have
>>> different firing orders? If that is what creates the difference in sound,
>>> is there any reason why you can't use the 351C firing order in a custom
>>> built 351W? Other than firing order, it seems like the cam, heads,
>>> headers, etc. will determine how the car sounds regardless of having a
>>> Cleveland or Windsor block.
>>>
>>> Ken
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: LS <lashdeep at yahoo.com>
>>> To: Ed Mendez <edducati at mac.com>; "detomaso at poca.com" <detomaso at poca.com>
>>> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 12:23 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 351w or 351c
>>>
>>> Have you driven the car at all with the Cleveland?
>>>
>>> You may like the characteristics and power delivery of one over the
>>> other...and then there's the difference in sound...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> central
>>> wines-spirits est 1934
>>>
>>>
>>> 625 e street nw
>>>
>>> washington, dc 20004
>>>
>>> centralwines.com
>>>
>>>
>>> facebook.com/CentralLiquors
>>>
>>>
>>> 202-737-2800
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: Ed Mendez <edducati at mac.com>
>>> To: "detomaso at poca.com" <detomaso at poca.com>
>>> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 2:40 PM
>>> Subject: [DeTomaso] 351w or 351c
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> My 71 Pantera has a built 351c in it now, I know the builder who did it
>>> and the previous owner (one of my best friends) so I know it is a well
>>> built engine and pretty radical, but it was done about 18 years ago and
>>> only broke in and started in the car but never driven; car has been in
>>> garage and off the road for 28 years. Also has a flat tapper cam. Neither
>>> of them can honestly remember what the internals or specs are, but knowing
>>> them it is as radical as you can get 18 years ago.
>>>
>>> I am sure it's a great motor, but I have the chance right now to obtain a
>>> fully built 351w new Dart Sportsman block (4 bolt splayed mains) and Dart
>>> Pro 1 CNC aluminum heads, Dart manifold and stroked to 427ci all scat
>>> internals with h-beam rods and full hydraulic roller motor. 634hp. I have
>>> an engine credit at a well established engine shop, so not going to cost me
>>> anything.
>>>
>>> My car is at a point that I can pull the motor now and do this.
>>>
>>> So, should I pull the trigger on the Winsor or just stay with the
>>> Cleveland?
>>>
>>> Does a Windsor decrease the value? Is it a good upgrade for value on the
>>> car?
>>>
>>> Or the other option is pull the Cleveland stroke it to 408, aluminum heads
>>> and roll prize it.
>>>
>>> If I do the Windsor should I keep or sell the Cleveland?
>>>
>>> So just want to get opinions for you guys.
>>>
>>> Thanks Ed
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPad
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>>
>>> DeTomaso mailing list
>>> DeTomaso at poca.com
>>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>>
>>> DeTomaso mailing list
>>> DeTomaso at poca.com
>>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>>
>>> DeTomaso mailing list
>>> DeTomaso at poca.com
>>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 26
> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 13:22:38 -0800 (PST)
> From: LS <lashdeep at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 351w or 351c
> To: Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com>, Ed Mendez <edducati at mac.com>,
> "detomaso at poca.com" <detomaso at poca.com>
> Message-ID:
> <1357852958.15052.YahooMailNeo at web120202.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> Also a good recommendation...
>
> Our Pantera gets used on longer road trips and rallies where we need smooth power, higher rpms, and reasonable driveability from the C.
>
>
> We have a race car that has the radical W motor that idles at 1600rpm and makes power from 4500-8300rpm...also sounds like a shuttle launch at WOT.
>
> ?
>
>
>
> central
> wines-spirits?? est 1934
>
>
> 625 e street nw
>
> washington, dc 20004
>
> centralwines.com
>
>
> facebook.com/CentralLiquors
>
>
> 202-737-2800
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com>
> To: Ed Mendez <edducati at mac.com>; "detomaso at poca.com" <detomaso at poca.com>
> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 3:55 PM
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 351w or 351c
>
> I'd drive it as it is and enjoy it.? My experience is that if you want to drive it a lot, you'll get tired of the radical?cam and want something a bit milder.? If you have another engine built now with a big cam etc., and get tired of it, you will have to start over again.
> ?
> I guess it all depends on your intended use.? If you just plan to drive to club events, it seems like a lot of trouble to swap motors.? If you want to drive across the country, you may end up wanted a moderate build with EFI.
> ?
> Ken
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Ed Mendez <edducati at mac.com>
> To: "detomaso at poca.com" <detomaso at poca.com>
> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 11:40 AM
> Subject: [DeTomaso] 351w or 351c
>
> Hi all,
>
> My 71 Pantera has a built 351c in it now, I know the builder who did it and the previous owner (one of my best friends) so I know it is a well built engine and pretty radical, but it was done about 18 years ago and only broke in and started in the car but never driven; car has been in garage and off the road for 28 years. Also has a flat tapper cam. Neither of them can honestly remember what the internals or specs are, but knowing them it is as radical as you can get 18 years ago.
>
> I am sure it's a great motor, but I have the chance right now to obtain a fully built 351w new Dart Sportsman block (4 bolt splayed mains) and Dart Pro 1 CNC aluminum heads, Dart manifold and stroked to 427ci all scat internals with h-beam rods and full hydraulic roller motor. 634hp. I have an engine credit at a well established engine shop, so not going to cost me anything.
>
> My car is at a point that I can pull the motor now and do this.
>
> So, should I pull the trigger on the Winsor or just stay with the Cleveland?
>
> Does a Windsor decrease the value? Is it a good upgrade for value on the car?
>
> Or the other option is pull the Cleveland stroke it to 408, aluminum heads and roll prize it.
>
> If I do the Windsor should I keep or sell the Cleveland?
>
> So just want to get opinions for you guys.
>
> Thanks Ed
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
> _______________________________________________
>
> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at poca.com
> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> _______________________________________________
>
> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at poca.com
> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 27
> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 14:29:30 -0700
> From: Ed Mendez <edducati at mac.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 351w or 351c
> To: michael at michaelshortt.com
> Cc: "detomaso at poca.com" <detomaso at poca.com>
> Message-ID: <A38742F4-69E3-4956-BDAA-5D6F83211402 at mac.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII
>
> Yes, good idea and that is an option, I know I would have to change exhaust, AC brackets, etc. What would you do to the Cleveland to make it about 550hp?
>
> Thanks, Ed
>
>
> On 10/01/2013, at 12:44 PM, "michael at michaelshortt.com" <michaelsavga at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> My own two cents.
>>
>> Panteras have 351 Clevelands. Even I played with the car with the W ( not
>> sure I would, other costs involved in switching it out )
>> I would keep the Cleveland with the car.
>>
>> If this engine shop is that good, why not use a part of your credit to just
>> freshen up the existing Cleveland and save the rest of your credit
>> for another project or upgrades down the road.
>>
>> Michael.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 2:40 PM, Ed Mendez <edducati at mac.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> My 71 Pantera has a built 351c in it now, I know the builder who did it
>>> and the previous owner (one of my best friends) so I know it is a well
>>> built engine and pretty radical, but it was done about 18 years ago and
>>> only broke in and started in the car but never driven; car has been in
>>> garage and off the road for 28 years. Also has a flat tapper cam. Neither
>>> of them can honestly remember what the internals or specs are, but knowing
>>> them it is as radical as you can get 18 years ago.
>>>
>>> I am sure it's a great motor, but I have the chance right now to obtain a
>>> fully built 351w new Dart Sportsman block (4 bolt splayed mains) and Dart
>>> Pro 1 CNC aluminum heads, Dart manifold and stroked to 427ci all scat
>>> internals with h-beam rods and full hydraulic roller motor. 634hp. I have
>>> an engine credit at a well established engine shop, so not going to cost me
>>> anything.
>>>
>>> My car is at a point that I can pull the motor now and do this.
>>>
>>> So, should I pull the trigger on the Winsor or just stay with the
>>> Cleveland?
>>>
>>> Does a Windsor decrease the value? Is it a good upgrade for value on the
>>> car?
>>>
>>> Or the other option is pull the Cleveland stroke it to 408, aluminum heads
>>> and roll prize it.
>>>
>>> If I do the Windsor should I keep or sell the Cleveland?
>>>
>>> So just want to get opinions for you guys.
>>>
>>> Thanks Ed
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPad
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>>
>>> DeTomaso mailing list
>>> DeTomaso at poca.com
>>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Michael L. Shortt
>> Savannah, Georgia
>> www.michaelshortt.com
>> michael at michaelshortt.com
>> 912-232-9390
>>
>>
>> This email is protected by the Electronic Communications Privacy
>> Act, 18 U.S.C. Sec. 2510-2521, is confidential and may be legally
>> privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified
>> that any retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this
>> communication is strictly prohibited. Please reply to the sender that you
>> have received this message in error, then delete it. Thank you
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 28
> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 14:34:23 -0700
> From: Ed Mendez <edducati at mac.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 351w or 351c
> To: LS <lashdeep at yahoo.com>
> Cc: "detomaso at poca.com" <detomaso at poca.com>
> Message-ID: <CDD71187-E3D1-49C3-BBB0-73F5C9C2E771 at mac.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII
>
> Actually, no.
>
> Don't laugh, but have never driven a Pantera. I only just rode in one for the first time two weeks ago at Don Byars shop in Lake Elsinore.
>
> Ed
>
> On 10/01/2013, at 1:23 PM, LS <lashdeep at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Have you driven the car at all with the Cleveland?
>>
>> You may like the characteristics and power delivery of one over the other...and then there's the difference in sound...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> central
>> wines-spirits est 1934
>>
>>
>> 625 e street nw
>>
>> washington, dc 20004
>>
>> centralwines.com
>>
>>
>> facebook.com/CentralLiquors
>>
>>
>> 202-737-2800
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Ed Mendez <edducati at mac.com>
>> To: "detomaso at poca.com" <detomaso at poca.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 2:40 PM
>> Subject: [DeTomaso] 351w or 351c
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> My 71 Pantera has a built 351c in it now, I know the builder who did it and the previous owner (one of my best friends) so I know it is a well built engine and pretty radical, but it was done about 18 years ago and only broke in and started in the car but never driven; car has been in garage and off the road for 28 years. Also has a flat tapper cam. Neither of them can honestly remember what the internals or specs are, but knowing them it is as radical as you can get 18 years ago.
>>
>> I am sure it's a great motor, but I have the chance right now to obtain a fully built 351w new Dart Sportsman block (4 bolt splayed mains) and Dart Pro 1 CNC aluminum heads, Dart manifold and stroked to 427ci all scat internals with h-beam rods and full hydraulic roller motor. 634hp. I have an engine credit at a well established engine shop, so not going to cost me anything.
>>
>> My car is at a point that I can pull the motor now and do this.
>>
>> So, should I pull the trigger on the Winsor or just stay with the Cleveland?
>>
>> Does a Windsor decrease the value? Is it a good upgrade for value on the car?
>>
>> Or the other option is pull the Cleveland stroke it to 408, aluminum heads and roll prize it.
>>
>> If I do the Windsor should I keep or sell the Cleveland?
>>
>> So just want to get opinions for you guys.
>>
>> Thanks Ed
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>
>> DeTomaso mailing list
>> DeTomaso at poca.com
>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 29
> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 16:34:06 -0500
> From: "michael at michaelshortt.com" <michaelsavga at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 351w or 351c
> To: Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com>
> Cc: "detomaso at poca.com" <detomaso at poca.com>, Ed Mendez
> <edducati at mac.com>
> Message-ID:
> <CAEWtxWp92XPaft5NfXhwn0G7rjX6_MJ8mZC_jZD6S1VmcyckZw at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> I meant cam, but now I'm more confused, according to this
>
> http://www.carmemories.com/cgi-bin/viewexperience.cgi?experience_id=132
>
> they are the same anyway.
>
> Michael
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 4:07 PM, Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> I hate the details... I'd have to defer to someone who knows more than I
>> do on this, but I think within limitations, you can play with the firing
>> order without changing the crank, but you can only swap the compression and
>> exhaust strokes between cylinders???
>>
>> Ken
>>
>> *From:* "michael at michaelshortt.com" <michaelsavga at gmail.com>
>> *To:* Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com>
>> *Cc:* "detomaso at poca.com" <detomaso at poca.com>; Ed Mendez <edducati at mac.com>
>>
>> *Sent:* Thursday, January 10, 2013 12:58 PM
>> *Subject:* Re: [DeTomaso] 351w or 351c
>>
>> I think the cranks are really different and that would prevent changing the
>> firing order.
>>
>> Michael
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 3:48 PM, Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I thought the sound might be different because different SBFs can have
>>> different firing orders? If that is what creates the difference in
>> sound,
>>> is there any reason why you can't use the 351C firing order in a custom
>>> built 351W? Other than firing order, it seems like the cam, heads,
>>> headers, etc. will determine how the car sounds regardless of having a
>>> Cleveland or Windsor block.
>>>
>>> Ken
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: LS <lashdeep at yahoo.com>
>>> To: Ed Mendez <edducati at mac.com>; "detomaso at poca.com" <detomaso at poca.com
>>>
>>> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 12:23 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 351w or 351c
>>>
>>> Have you driven the car at all with the Cleveland?
>>>
>>> You may like the characteristics and power delivery of one over the
>>> other...and then there's the difference in sound...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> central
>>> wines-spirits est 1934
>>>
>>>
>>> 625 e street nw
>>>
>>> washington, dc 20004
>>>
>>> centralwines.com
>>>
>>>
>>> facebook.com/CentralLiquors
>>>
>>>
>>> 202-737-2800
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: Ed Mendez <edducati at mac.com>
>>> To: "detomaso at poca.com" <detomaso at poca.com>
>>> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 2:40 PM
>>> Subject: [DeTomaso] 351w or 351c
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> My 71 Pantera has a built 351c in it now, I know the builder who did it
>>> and the previous owner (one of my best friends) so I know it is a well
>>> built engine and pretty radical, but it was done about 18 years ago and
>>> only broke in and started in the car but never driven; car has been in
>>> garage and off the road for 28 years. Also has a flat tapper cam. Neither
>>> of them can honestly remember what the internals or specs are, but
>> knowing
>>> them it is as radical as you can get 18 years ago.
>>>
>>> I am sure it's a great motor, but I have the chance right now to obtain a
>>> fully built 351w new Dart Sportsman block (4 bolt splayed mains) and Dart
>>> Pro 1 CNC aluminum heads, Dart manifold and stroked to 427ci all scat
>>> internals with h-beam rods and full hydraulic roller motor. 634hp. I have
>>> an engine credit at a well established engine shop, so not going to cost
>> me
>>> anything.
>>>
>>> My car is at a point that I can pull the motor now and do this.
>>>
>>> So, should I pull the trigger on the Winsor or just stay with the
>>> Cleveland?
>>>
>>> Does a Windsor decrease the value? Is it a good upgrade for value on the
>>> car?
>>>
>>> Or the other option is pull the Cleveland stroke it to 408, aluminum
>> heads
>>> and roll prize it.
>>>
>>> If I do the Windsor should I keep or sell the Cleveland?
>>>
>>> So just want to get opinions for you guys.
>>>
>>> Thanks Ed
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPad
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>>
>>> DeTomaso mailing list
>>> DeTomaso at poca.com
>>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>>
>>> DeTomaso mailing list
>>> DeTomaso at poca.com
>>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>>
>>> DeTomaso mailing list
>>> DeTomaso at poca.com
>>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Michael L. Shortt
>> Savannah, Georgia
>> http://www.michaelshortt.com/
>> michael at michaelshortt.com
>> 912-232-9390
>>
>>
>> This email is protected by the Electronic Communications Privacy
>> Act, 18 U.S.C. Sec. 2510-2521, is confidential and may be legally
>> privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified
>> that any retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this
>> communication is strictly prohibited. Please reply to the sender that you
>> have received this message in error, then delete it. Thank you
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>
>> DeTomaso mailing list
>> DeTomaso at poca.com
>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Michael L. Shortt
> Savannah, Georgia
> www.michaelshortt.com
> michael at michaelshortt.com
> 912-232-9390
>
>
> This email is protected by the Electronic Communications Privacy
> Act, 18 U.S.C. Sec. 2510-2521, is confidential and may be legally
> privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified
> that any retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this
> communication is strictly prohibited. Please reply to the sender that you
> have received this message in error, then delete it. Thank you
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 30
> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 22:52:38 +0100
> From: thomas <thomas at hax.se>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 351w or 351c
> To: Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com>
> Cc: "detomaso at poca.com" <detomaso at poca.com>, Ed Mendez
> <edducati at mac.com>
> Message-ID: <5AAE2C8C-677D-40FD-B68C-3D14DD05D173 at hax.se>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> 351C and 351W has the same firing order. And the difference between say a low end 5.0 and a HO 5.0 is in the cam. The crank is the same layout and you can change the firing order with a cam swap, and plug wire routing. More work is needed for a sequential EFI, but not mechanically.
>
> Thomas
>
> 10 jan 2013 kl. 21:48 skrev Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com>:
>
>> I thought the sound might be different because different SBFs can have different firing orders? If that is what creates the difference in sound, is there any reason why you can't use the 351C firing order in a custom built 351W? Other than firing order, it seems like the cam, heads, headers, etc. will determine how the car sounds regardless of having a Cleveland or Windsor block.
>>
>> Ken
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: LS <lashdeep at yahoo.com>
>> To: Ed Mendez <edducati at mac.com>; "detomaso at poca.com" <detomaso at poca.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 12:23 PM
>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 351w or 351c
>>
>> Have you driven the car at all with the Cleveland?
>>
>> You may like the characteristics and power delivery of one over the other...and then there's the difference in sound...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> central
>> wines-spirits est 1934
>>
>>
>> 625 e street nw
>>
>> washington, dc 20004
>>
>> centralwines.com
>>
>>
>> facebook.com/CentralLiquors
>>
>>
>> 202-737-2800
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Ed Mendez <edducati at mac.com>
>> To: "detomaso at poca.com" <detomaso at poca.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 2:40 PM
>> Subject: [DeTomaso] 351w or 351c
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> My 71 Pantera has a built 351c in it now, I know the builder who did it and the previous owner (one of my best friends) so I know it is a well built engine and pretty radical, but it was done about 18 years ago and only broke in and started in the car but never driven; car has been in garage and off the road for 28 years. Also has a flat tapper cam. Neither of them can honestly remember what the internals or specs are, but knowing them it is as radical as you can get 18 years ago.
>>
>> I am sure it's a great motor, but I have the chance right now to obtain a fully built 351w new Dart Sportsman block (4 bolt splayed mains) and Dart Pro 1 CNC aluminum heads, Dart manifold and stroked to 427ci all scat internals with h-beam rods and full hydraulic roller motor. 634hp. I have an engine credit at a well established engine shop, so not going to cost me anything.
>>
>> My car is at a point that I can pull the motor now and do this.
>>
>> So, should I pull the trigger on the Winsor or just stay with the Cleveland?
>>
>> Does a Windsor decrease the value? Is it a good upgrade for value on the car?
>>
>> Or the other option is pull the Cleveland stroke it to 408, aluminum heads and roll prize it.
>>
>> If I do the Windsor should I keep or sell the Cleveland?
>>
>> So just want to get opinions for you guys.
>>
>> Thanks Ed
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>
>> DeTomaso mailing list
>> DeTomaso at poca.com
>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>
>> DeTomaso mailing list
>> DeTomaso at poca.com
>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>
>> DeTomaso mailing list
>> DeTomaso at poca.com
>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>
>>
>> !DSPAM:50ef2aed150291715223260!
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 31
> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 14:59:05 -0700
> From: Ed Mendez <edducati at mac.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 351w or 351c
> To: Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com>
> Cc: "detomaso at poca.com" <detomaso at poca.com>
> Message-ID: <D466A9BC-7CC3-44D0-8EFF-E13C34F3680D at mac.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII
>
> Here is a block from Dart that uses a Cleveland crank and 9.5" deck with W bolt ons?
>
> DART Ford Iron Eagle Block - Part#: 31385235
>
> QUICK FACTS:
>
>
> Main Journal Type: 351 Cleveland mains
> Material: Superior iron alloy
> Bore: 4.125"
> Cylinder Wall Thickness: .250" min @ 4.185" bore
> Cubic inch: 468" max recommended
> Deck Height: 9.500"
> Deck Thickness: .675" min.
> Fuel Pump: Mechanical pump provision
> Freeze Plugs: Std Ford press in cup plugs 1.500" OD
> Head bolts: 1/2" Blind holes
> Lifter Bores: Std Ford .8747" - .8757" Honed to size
> Lifters: Std Ford - Hyd rollers need tie-bar style lifters.
> Main journal size: 2.749" Std 351 Cleveland
> Main bearing bore: 2.9415" - 2.9425" Honed to size
> Main thrust width: .913" - .915"
> Main Cap Bolts: #1 1/2" (2) 3/8" (2)
> #2, #3, #4 1/2" (2) 7/16" splayed (2)
> #5 1/2" (2) 3/8" (2)
> Main cap press: .003" - .004"
> Main caps: Steel - 4 bolt, all 5
> Main cap register: Deep stepped register on each side (no need for dowels)
> Oil system: Std Wet Sump or SVO dry sump
> Priority Main oiling with external pump (wet or dry)
> Oil Filter: Standard filter
> Oil Pan: Standard 351W oil pan
> Starter: Standard
> Timing chain/gears Standard components
> Timing Cover: Uses stock 351W cover
> Weight, approx: 195 lbs
> Main Bolt Style: 4 bolt
> Steel billet Main Caps, Main Cap Bolts, Cam Bearings and Freeze Plugs Included
> Stock Cam Location
>
>
> On 10/01/2013, at 2:35 PM, Ed Mendez <edducati at mac.com> wrote:
>
>> Thanks
>>
>> On 10/01/2013, at 1:55 PM, Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I'd drive it as it is and enjoy it. My experience is that if you want to drive it a lot, you'll get tired of the radical cam and want something a bit milder. If you have another engine built now with a big cam etc., and get tired of it, you will have to start over again.
>>>
>>> I guess it all depends on your intended use. If you just plan to drive to club events, it seems like a lot of trouble to swap motors. If you want to drive across the country, you may end up wanted a moderate build with EFI.
>>>
>>> Ken
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: Ed Mendez <edducati at mac.com>
>>> To: "detomaso at poca.com" <detomaso at poca.com>
>>> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 11:40 AM
>>> Subject: [DeTomaso] 351w or 351c
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> My 71 Pantera has a built 351c in it now, I know the builder who did it and the previous owner (one of my best friends) so I know it is a well built engine and pretty radical, but it was done about 18 years ago and only broke in and started in the car but never driven; car has been in garage and off the road for 28 years. Also has a flat tapper cam. Neither of them can honestly remember what the internals or specs are, but knowing them it is as radical as you can get 18 years ago.
>>>
>>> I am sure it's a great motor, but I have the chance right now to obtain a fully built 351w new Dart Sportsman block (4 bolt splayed mains) and Dart Pro 1 CNC aluminum heads, Dart manifold and stroked to 427ci all scat internals with h-beam rods and full hydraulic roller motor. 634hp. I have an engine credit at a well established engine shop, so not going to cost me anything.
>>>
>>> My car is at a point that I can pull the motor now and do this.
>>>
>>> So, should I pull the trigger on the Winsor or just stay with the Cleveland?
>>>
>>> Does a Windsor decrease the value? Is it a good upgrade for value on the car?
>>>
>>> Or the other option is pull the Cleveland stroke it to 408, aluminum heads and roll prize it.
>>>
>>> If I do the Windsor should I keep or sell the Cleveland?
>>>
>>> So just want to get opinions for you guys.
>>>
>>> Thanks Ed
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPad
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>>
>>> DeTomaso mailing list
>>> DeTomaso at poca.com
>>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 32
> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 16:56:47 -0500
> From: "Larry - Ohio Time Corp" <larry at ohiotimecorp.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Two things ??
> To: <MikeLDrew at aol.com>, <lotus0005 at hotmail.com>,
> <detomaso at realbig.com>, <detomaso at poca.com>
> Message-ID: <20130110220453.AFB82834339 at mail.poca.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> << But she's still the same woman>>
>
> Never found that to be true with the ones I kicked out.
>
> Larry (I never change) - Cleveland
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: detomaso-bounces at poca.com [mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com] On Behalf
> Of MikeLDrew at aol.com
> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 1:13 PM
> To: lotus0005 at hotmail.com; detomaso at realbig.com; detomaso at poca.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Two things ??
>
>
> In a message dated 1/10/13 9 53 7, lotus0005 at hotmail.com writes:
>
>
>>
>> I just saw that there are two detomaso sites:? "realbig" and "poca."? What
>
>> is the difference?
>>
>
>>>> Realbig became POCA. Kind of like when a woman gets married, she takes
> her husband's name. But she's still the same woman. :>)
>
> Mike
> _______________________________________________
>
> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at poca.com
> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 33
> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 16:56:47 -0500
> From: "Larry - Ohio Time Corp" <larry at ohiotimecorp.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Two things ??
> To: <MikeLDrew at aol.com>, <lotus0005 at hotmail.com>,
> <detomaso at realbig.com>, <detomaso at poca.com>
> Message-ID: <2615178024286152088988417600148 at psmtp.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> << But she's still the same woman>>
>
> Never found that to be true with the ones I kicked out.
>
> Larry (I never change) - Cleveland
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: detomaso-bounces at poca.com [mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com] On Behalf
> Of MikeLDrew at aol.com
> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 1:13 PM
> To: lotus0005 at hotmail.com; detomaso at realbig.com; detomaso at poca.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Two things ??
>
>
> In a message dated 1/10/13 9 53 7, lotus0005 at hotmail.com writes:
>
>
>>
>> I just saw that there are two detomaso sites:? "realbig" and "poca."? What
>
>> is the difference?
>>
>
>>>> Realbig became POCA. Kind of like when a woman gets married, she takes
> her husband's name. But she's still the same woman. :>)
>
> Mike
> _______________________________________________
>
> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at poca.com
> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 34
> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 23:07:22 +0000 (UTC)
> From: shawkins777 at comcast.net
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 351w or 351c
> Cc: detomaso at poca.com
> Message-ID:
> <1451364270.2169941.1357859242329.JavaMail.root at sz0134a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
>
> My bad, I was thinking big block.
>
> Steve
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: MikeLDrew at aol.com
> To: shawkins777 at comcast.net
> Cc: detomaso at poca.com
> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 2:24:57 PM
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 351w or 351c
>
>
> In a message dated 1/10/13 12 14 18, shawkins777 at comcast.net writes:
>
>
>
>
> Put the 351W in and keep the 351C as a back-up. You'll have to change the motor mounts though.
>
>
>
>
>>>> 351W and 351C use exactly the same motor mounts. Different headers, water plumbing, and a bunch of other small stuff, but the same motor mounts....
>
> Mike
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 35
> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 17:27:05 -0800 (PST)
> From: B Hower <b.hower3400 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Ethanol "enriched" (diluted) fuel
> To: arkoch at earthlink.net, detomaso at poca.com, Roland Jaeckel
> <pantera874 at t-online.de>
> Message-ID:
> <1357867625.23922.YahooMailClassic at web121103.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> FWIW ---- I have run 10 percent Ethanol? since around ' 97 in everything we own. A 96 Cutlass Supreme to 170k miles, a 97 Cutlass Supreme to 257k miles, and a 2000 Grand Prix to 184k miles. I also run it in the Ford 302s and 351Cs including the Pantera and I have not seen any damage to any of therm that could be blamed on Ethanol.
>
> Bud #3400 ( Drive it like there is no tomorrow -- for there may not be ! )
>
> --- On Thu, 1/10/13, Roland Jaeckel <pantera874 at t-online.de> wrote:
>
>
> From: Roland Jaeckel <pantera874 at t-online.de>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Ethanol "enriched" (diluted) fuel
> To: arkoch at earthlink.net, detomaso at poca.com
> Date: Thursday, January 10, 2013, 10:37 AM
>
>
> We have 10 percent Ethanol over here without any issues in any car.
> I think the swedes have up to 85 percent.
> Roland Jaeckel
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dick Koch" <arkoch at earthlink.net>
> To: <detomaso at poca.com>
> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 5:13 PM
> Subject: [DeTomaso] Ethanol "enriched" (diluted) fuel
>
>
>> While the use of Ethanol diluted fuel has been discussed before, folks
>> may be interested in viewing this video on the use of the Ethanol
>> "enriched" fuel being pushed by the EPA.
>>
>> http://video.foxbusiness.com/v/2000862202001/
>>
>> From my standpoint, I would not use any Ethanol enriched fuel, not only
>> in my Pantera, but any car or other equipment, such as generators or
>> lawn equipment.? A couple of web sites I use to identify Ethanol free
>> fuel are:
>>
>> http://pure-gas.org/
>> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=air.htapps.ethanolfreegas&hl=en
>>
>> Dick Koch
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>
>> DeTomaso mailing list
>> DeTomaso at poca.com
>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at poca.com
> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 36
> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 01:41:00 +0000
> From: Gray Gregory <rgg at gregorycook.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Ethanol "enriched" (diluted) fuel
> To: "michael at michaelshortt.com" <michael at michaelshortt.com>, Paul
> Timko <thedrol at pobox.com>
> Cc: "detomaso at poca.com" <detomaso at poca.com>
> Message-ID:
> <26F5E1FADCF8FC498235D565424DF28240864E3F at BL2PRD0512MB615.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> According to that chart E-10 (reformulated gas, ethanol) is only about 2% less BTU's/gal than the conventional summer gas 111,836 vs 114,500. So what two gas formulations are you comparing?
>
> Gray
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: detomaso-bounces at poca.com [mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com] On Behalf Of michael at michaelshortt.com
> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 12:42 PM
> To: Paul Timko
> Cc: detomaso at poca.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Ethanol "enriched" (diluted) fuel
>
> I would say that 10% is the upper good side, when I was testing, I was playing nice.
> I seriously doubt that it would have held up to only 10% worse under more aggressive driving.
>
> If you look at the chart I sent a link to see, the BTU deficit is much greater than 10% less.
>
> Michael
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 1:32 PM, Paul Timko <thedrol at pobox.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm not doubting the less effectiveness of E85 or E10. I was
>> commenting on Mike's claim that using E10 resulted in a 10% loss in MPG.
>>
>> Paul
>> #9270
>>
>> On 1/10/2013 12:27 PM, michael at michaelshortt.com wrote:
>>> Here's more info that shows what a major screw job is being forced
>>> upon
>> us.
>>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_gallon_equivalent
>>>
>>> Michael
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 1:19 PM, michael at michaelshortt.com
>>> <mailto:michael at michaelshortt.com> <michaelsavga at gmail.com
>>> <mailto:michaelsavga at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Not using my own personal experience and multiple tanks of real
>>> world testing.
>>>
>>> It is only done to subsidize the corn farmers and drive up the cost
>>> of everything else as a result.
>>>
>>> a box of Corn Flakes is $4.00, just ridiculous.
>>>
>>> That keeps them buying $400,000 tractors every year on the govt
>>> dime, so they can sell the old ones
>>> and keep the money.
>>>
>>> Thousands of them ( one season old ) are shipped out of the country
>>> every year, many right here in Savannah.
>>>
>>> Want to see photos of them, send me a email, I'll show you.
>>>
>>> Michael Shortt
>>>
>>> It's a F*&%^ing racket!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 1:10 PM, Paul Timko <thedrol at pobox.com
>>> <mailto:thedrol at pobox.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Burn 10% more fuel to make up for the 10% ethanol, doesn't make
>>> sense.
>>> There must be some energy in the ethanol... I think the actual
>>> MPG drop
>>> is around 3-4%
>>>
>>> Paul
>>> #9270
>>>
>>> On 1/10/2013 11:09 AM, MikeLDrew at aol.com
>>> <mailto:MikeLDrew at aol.com> wrote:
>>>> one liter of diluted gas), what they fail to tell you is that
>>> to travel a
>>>> certain distance, you need to burn about 10 percent more fuel
>>> if it is
>>>> diluted.
>>>>
>>>> Mike
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>
>>>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>>>
>>>> DeTomaso mailing list
>>>> DeTomaso at poca.com <mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com>
>>>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>>
>>> DeTomaso mailing list
>>> DeTomaso at poca.com <mailto:DeTomaso at poca.com>
>>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Michael L. Shortt
>>> Savannah, Georgia
>>> www.michaelshortt.com <http://www.michaelshortt.com>
>>> michael at michaelshortt.com <mailto:michael at michaelshortt.com>
>>> 912-232-9390 <tel:912-232-9390>
>>>
>>>
>>> This email is protected by the Electronic Communications Privacy
>>> Act, 18 U.S.C. Sec. 2510-2521, is confidential and may be legally
>>> privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby
>>> notified
>>> that any retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this
>>> communication is strictly prohibited. Please reply to the sender
>>> that you
>>> have received this message in error, then delete it. Thank you
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Michael L. Shortt
>>> Savannah, Georgia
>>> www.michaelshortt.com <http://www.michaelshortt.com>
>>> michael at michaelshortt.com <mailto:michael at michaelshortt.com>
>>> 912-232-9390
>>>
>>>
>>> This email is protected by the Electronic Communications Privacy
>>> Act, 18 U.S.C. Sec. 2510-2521, is confidential and may be legally
>>> privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby
>> notified
>>> that any retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this
>>> communication is strictly prohibited. Please reply to the sender
>>> that
>> you
>>> have received this message in error, then delete it. Thank you
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>
>> DeTomaso mailing list
>> DeTomaso at poca.com
>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>
>
>
>
> --
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Michael L. Shortt
> Savannah, Georgia
> www.michaelshortt.com
> michael at michaelshortt.com
> 912-232-9390
>
>
> This email is protected by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. Sec. 2510-2521, is confidential and may be legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. Please reply to the sender that you have received this message in error, then delete it. Thank you _______________________________________________
>
> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at poca.com
> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 37
> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 18:05:33 -0800
> From: "Mike Thomas" <mbefthomas at comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 351w or 351c
> To: <michael at michaelshortt.com>, "'Ed Mendez'" <edducati at mac.com>
> Cc: detomaso at poca.com
> Message-ID: <1E1B34EE0AF345AAA0D7A1FA4A4C696C at MBET>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> I have to agree with Michael. Use the credit to have them go through the
> Cleveland in the car, stoke and roll it then if you like. It wouldn't be a
> bad idea to find out just what they did in the build, and if there is
> anything left in the cylinder walls (be sure they didn't go beyond .030).
>
> Mike Thomas
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: detomaso-bounces at poca.com [mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com] On Behalf
> Of michael at michaelshortt.com
> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 11:45 AM
> To: Ed Mendez
> Cc: detomaso at poca.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 351w or 351c
>
> My own two cents.
>
> Panteras have 351 Clevelands. Even I played with the car with the W ( not
> sure I would, other costs involved in switching it out ) I would keep the
> Cleveland with the car.
>
> If this engine shop is that good, why not use a part of your credit to just
> freshen up the existing Cleveland and save the rest of your credit for
> another project or upgrades down the road.
>
> Michael.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 2:40 PM, Ed Mendez <edducati at mac.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> My 71 Pantera has a built 351c in it now, I know the builder who did
>> it and the previous owner (one of my best friends) so I know it is a
>> well built engine and pretty radical, but it was done about 18 years
>> ago and only broke in and started in the car but never driven; car has
>> been in garage and off the road for 28 years. Also has a flat tapper
>> cam. Neither of them can honestly remember what the internals or specs
>> are, but knowing them it is as radical as you can get 18 years ago.
>>
>> I am sure it's a great motor, but I have the chance right now to
>> obtain a fully built 351w new Dart Sportsman block (4 bolt splayed
>> mains) and Dart Pro 1 CNC aluminum heads, Dart manifold and stroked to
>> 427ci all scat internals with h-beam rods and full hydraulic roller
>> motor. 634hp. I have an engine credit at a well established engine
>> shop, so not going to cost me anything.
>>
>> My car is at a point that I can pull the motor now and do this.
>>
>> So, should I pull the trigger on the Winsor or just stay with the
>> Cleveland?
>>
>> Does a Windsor decrease the value? Is it a good upgrade for value on
>> the car?
>>
>> Or the other option is pull the Cleveland stroke it to 408, aluminum
>> heads and roll prize it.
>>
>> If I do the Windsor should I keep or sell the Cleveland?
>>
>> So just want to get opinions for you guys.
>>
>> Thanks Ed
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>
>> DeTomaso mailing list
>> DeTomaso at poca.com
>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>
>
>
>
> --
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Michael L. Shortt
> Savannah, Georgia
> www.michaelshortt.com
> michael at michaelshortt.com
> 912-232-9390
>
>
> This email is protected by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18
> U.S.C. Sec. 2510-2521, is confidential and may be legally privileged. If
> you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any
> retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is
> strictly prohibited. Please reply to the sender that you have received this
> message in error, then delete it. Thank you
> _______________________________________________
>
> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at poca.com
> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 38
> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 21:44:25 -0500
> From: Will Kooiman <will.kooiman at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 351w or 351c
> To: Jerry Knotts <knottsj at galstar.com>, <detomaso at poca.com>
> Message-ID: <CD14E5DE.24071%will.kooiman at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
> Correct. The cam determines the firing order. The cranks have the throws
> in the same place.
>
> I would be willing to bet that a 351W and 351C built with the same
> cam,carb,crank, firing order would still sound different due to the
> difference in the heads. Most of the difference is in the cam, but the
> massive difference in intake and valve sizes has to make a difference.
>
> On 1/10/13 4:18 PM, "Jerry Knotts" <knottsj at galstar.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> I think you only have to change the cam to adjust the firing order. Had
>> an engine built 10 years ago and the builder got a deal on a Cleveland
>> firing order Windsor cam. It took HP Motorsports nearly a day to figure
>> it out and get the engine running. That was only the tip of the iceberg
>> on that engine, so to speak.
>>
>> jerry
>>
>> On 1/10/2013 3:07 PM, Ken Green wrote:
>>> I hate the details... I'd have to defer to someone who knows more
>>> than I do on this, but I think within limitations, you can play with the
>>> firing order without changing the crank, but you can only swap the
>>> compression and exhaust strokes between cylinders???
>>>
>>> Ken
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: "michael at michaelshortt.com" <michaelsavga at gmail.com>
>>> To: Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com>
>>> Cc: "detomaso at poca.com" <detomaso at poca.com>; Ed Mendez
>>> <edducati at mac.com>
>>> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 12:58 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 351w or 351c
>>>
>>> I think the cranks are really different and that would prevent changing
>>> the
>>> firing order.
>>>
>>> Michael
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 3:48 PM, Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I thought the sound might be different because different SBFs can have
>>>> different firing orders? If that is what creates the difference in
>>>> sound,
>>>> is there any reason why you can't use the 351C firing order in a custom
>>>> built 351W? Other than firing order, it seems like the cam, heads,
>>>> headers, etc. will determine how the car sounds regardless of having a
>>>> Cleveland or Windsor block.
>>>>
>>>> Ken
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From: LS <lashdeep at yahoo.com>
>>>> To: Ed Mendez <edducati at mac.com>; "detomaso at poca.com"
>>>> <detomaso at poca.com>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 12:23 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 351w or 351c
>>>>
>>>> Have you driven the car at all with the Cleveland?
>>>>
>>>> You may like the characteristics and power delivery of one over the
>>>> other...and then there's the difference in sound...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> central
>>>> wines-spirits est 1934
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 625 e street nw
>>>>
>>>> washington, dc 20004
>>>>
>>>> centralwines.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> facebook.com/CentralLiquors
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 202-737-2800
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From: Ed Mendez <edducati at mac.com>
>>>> To: "detomaso at poca.com" <detomaso at poca.com>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 2:40 PM
>>>> Subject: [DeTomaso] 351w or 351c
>>>>
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>> My 71 Pantera has a built 351c in it now, I know the builder who did it
>>>> and the previous owner (one of my best friends) so I know it is a well
>>>> built engine and pretty radical, but it was done about 18 years ago and
>>>> only broke in and started in the car but never driven; car has been in
>>>> garage and off the road for 28 years. Also has a flat tapper cam.
>>>> Neither
>>>> of them can honestly remember what the internals or specs are, but
>>>> knowing
>>>> them it is as radical as you can get 18 years ago.
>>>>
>>>> I am sure it's a great motor, but I have the chance right now to
>>>> obtain a
>>>> fully built 351w new Dart Sportsman block (4 bolt splayed mains) and
>>>> Dart
>>>> Pro 1 CNC aluminum heads, Dart manifold and stroked to 427ci all scat
>>>> internals with h-beam rods and full hydraulic roller motor. 634hp. I
>>>> have
>>>> an engine credit at a well established engine shop, so not going to
>>>> cost me
>>>> anything.
>>>>
>>>> My car is at a point that I can pull the motor now and do this.
>>>>
>>>> So, should I pull the trigger on the Winsor or just stay with the
>>>> Cleveland?
>>>>
>>>> Does a Windsor decrease the value? Is it a good upgrade for value on
>>>> the
>>>> car?
>>>>
>>>> Or the other option is pull the Cleveland stroke it to 408, aluminum
>>>> heads
>>>> and roll prize it.
>>>>
>>>> If I do the Windsor should I keep or sell the Cleveland?
>>>>
>>>> So just want to get opinions for you guys.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks Ed
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>
>>>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>>>
>>>> DeTomaso mailing list
>>>> DeTomaso at poca.com
>>>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>
>>>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>>>
>>>> DeTomaso mailing list
>>>> DeTomaso at poca.com
>>>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>
>>>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>>>
>>>> DeTomaso mailing list
>>>> DeTomaso at poca.com
>>>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>
>> DeTomaso mailing list
>> DeTomaso at poca.com
>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 39
> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 22:50:44 -0500
> From: Sean Korb <spkorb at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] NPC: 2013 GT500
> To: detomaso at poca.com
> Message-ID:
> <CABpzvs9gsYaJnvHbzHa-T_P1ZY3E3h8jh+zjipFtS9nsqu1dJA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> I resemble that remark. The split level next door was just purchased
> for $40k. It needs a new HVAC and the electrical redone but hey, it's
> just work :) Mine *was* worth $150k, but now I'm a bit stuck. Good
> thing I have an awesome garage!
>
> On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 2:05 PM, Dave <dave at damardirect.com> wrote:
>> Not long ago you could sit in a 70M house!
>> IndyDave
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Kirby Schrader [mailto:kirby.schrader at gmail.com]
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2013 2:12 PM
>> To: detomaso at poca.com
>> Subject: [DeTomaso] NPC: 2013 GT500
>>
>> Don't know if you guys have been reading about the car?
>>
>> The acceleration it has is phenomenal!
>> Just got mine yesterday and I haven't had a dry piece of pavement to play on yet, but wow....
>>
>> Gotta' love America. Where else can you drive to work and back comfortably in a 662HP 200mph vehicle that's less than $70K?
>>
>> FWIW,
>> Kirby
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>
>> DeTomaso mailing list
>> DeTomaso at poca.com
>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
>
>
> --
> Sean Korb spkorb at spkorb.org http://www.spkorb.org
> '65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 Pantera #1382
> "The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
> "Computers are useless. They can only give you answers." -P. Picasso
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 40
> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 23:02:22 -0500
> From: Sean Korb <spkorb at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 351w or 351c
> To: List Pantera <detomaso at realbig.com>
> Message-ID:
> <CABpzvs-kKg2nf6SVDB57LggY9zeLJRD0Vu7G1zpF2_qKwXz=VQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> This is all great advice and detail. It really does depend on what
> you want to use the motor for. I found a radical cam motor was just a
> bit more than I wanted for the street, but if you want to be the
> fastest, you should go for it and be fastest.
>
> Or even better, get the super hot motor for your current build and go
> racing and get a *second* Pantera with a milder motor to get groceries
> and drive to work.
>
> sean
>
> On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 2:40 PM, Ed Mendez <edducati at mac.com> wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> My 71 Pantera has a built 351c in it now, I know the builder who did it and the previous owner (one of my best friends) so I know it is a well built engine and pretty radical, but it was done about 18 years ago and only broke in and started in the car but never driven; car has been in garage and off the road for 28 years. Also has a flat tapper cam. Neither of them can honestly remember what the internals or specs are, but knowing them it is as radical as you can get 18 years ago.
>>
>> I am sure it's a great motor, but I have the chance right now to obtain a fully built 351w new Dart Sportsman block (4 bolt splayed mains) and Dart Pro 1 CNC aluminum heads, Dart manifold and stroked to 427ci all scat internals with h-beam rods and full hydraulic roller motor. 634hp. I have an engine credit at a well established engine shop, so not going to cost me anything.
>>
>> My car is at a point that I can pull the motor now and do this.
>>
>> So, should I pull the trigger on the Winsor or just stay with the Cleveland?
>>
>> Does a Windsor decrease the value? Is it a good upgrade for value on the car?
>>
>> Or the other option is pull the Cleveland stroke it to 408, aluminum heads and roll prize it.
>>
>> If I do the Windsor should I keep or sell the Cleveland?
>>
>> So just want to get opinions for you guys.
>>
>> Thanks Ed
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>
>> DeTomaso mailing list
>> DeTomaso at poca.com
>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
>
>
> --
> Sean Korb spkorb at spkorb.org http://www.spkorb.org
> '65,'68 Mustangs,'68 Cougar,'78 R100/7,'60 Metro,'59 A35,'71 Pantera #1382
> "The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
> "Computers are useless. They can only give you answers." -P. Picasso
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 41
> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 20:52:35 -0800 (PST)
> From: scott black <timepiecepr2 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Two things ??
> To: "MikeLDrew at aol.com" <MikeLDrew at aol.com>, "lotus0005 at hotmail.com"
> <lotus0005 at hotmail.com>, "detomaso at realbig.com"
> <detomaso at realbig.com>, "detomaso at poca.com" <detomaso at poca.com>
> Message-ID:
> <1357879955.30895.YahooMailNeo at web162406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> You have a lot to learn about marriage, Mike. LOL
>
> Scott Black
>
> TimePiece Public Relations & Marketing
> Marketing Acceleration
> www.tprm-usa.com
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: "MikeLDrew at aol.com" <MikeLDrew at aol.com>
> To: lotus0005 at hotmail.com; detomaso at realbig.com; detomaso at poca.com
> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 12:12 PM
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Two things ??
>
>
> In a message dated 1/10/13 9 53 7, lotus0005 at hotmail.com writes:
>
>
>>
>> I just saw that there are two detomaso sites:? "realbig" and "poca."? What
>> is the difference?
>>
>
>>>> Realbig became POCA.? Kind of like when a woman gets married, she takes
> her husband's name.? But she's still the same woman. :>)
>
> Mike
> _______________________________________________
>
> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at poca.com
> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 42
> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 20:52:35 -0800 (PST)
> From: scott black <timepiecepr2 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Two things ??
> To: "MikeLDrew at aol.com" <MikeLDrew at aol.com>, "lotus0005 at hotmail.com"
> <lotus0005 at hotmail.com>, "detomaso at realbig.com"
> <detomaso at realbig.com>, "detomaso at poca.com" <detomaso at poca.com>
> Message-ID:
> <1357879955.30895.YahooMailNeo at web162406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> You have a lot to learn about marriage, Mike. LOL
>
> Scott Black
>
> TimePiece Public Relations & Marketing
> Marketing Acceleration
> www.tprm-usa.com
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: "MikeLDrew at aol.com" <MikeLDrew at aol.com>
> To: lotus0005 at hotmail.com; detomaso at realbig.com; detomaso at poca.com
> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 12:12 PM
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Two things ??
>
>
> In a message dated 1/10/13 9 53 7, lotus0005 at hotmail.com writes:
>
>
>>
>> I just saw that there are two detomaso sites:? "realbig" and "poca."? What
>> is the difference?
>>
>
>>>> Realbig became POCA.? Kind of like when a woman gets married, she takes
> her husband's name.? But she's still the same woman. :>)
>
> Mike
> _______________________________________________
>
> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at poca.com
> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 43
> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 20:56:31 -0800 (PST)
> From: scott black <timepiecepr2 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] NPC: 2013 GT500
> To: Kirby Schrader <kirby.schrader at gmail.com>, "detomaso at poca.com"
> <detomaso at poca.com>
> Message-ID:
> <1357880191.26178.YahooMailNeo at web162405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> It is indeed an incredible car.? And there are lots of parts to enhance it even more from Shelby American.
>
> Carroll spent a fair amount of time during the development with the 2012 GT500.? He was very proud of the car that Ford created.?
>
> Scott Black
>
> TimePiece Public Relations & Marketing
> Marketing Acceleration
> www.tprm-usa.com
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Kirby Schrader <kirby.schrader at gmail.com>
> To: detomaso at poca.com
> Sent: Wednesday, January 9, 2013 1:11 PM
> Subject: [DeTomaso] NPC: 2013 GT500
>
> Don't know if you guys have been reading about the car?
>
> The acceleration it has is phenomenal!
> Just got mine yesterday and I haven't had a dry piece of pavement to
> play on yet, but wow....
>
> Gotta' love America. Where else can you drive to work and back
> comfortably in a 662HP 200mph vehicle that's less than $70K?
>
> FWIW,
> Kirby
> _______________________________________________
>
> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at poca.com
> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 44
> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 01:12:12 -0500 (EST)
> From: MikeLDrew at aol.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] January Auction Pantera's
> To: julian_kift at hotmail.com, detomaso at POCA.com
> Message-ID: <153b2.b89af46.3e21073c at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
>
> In a message dated 1/9/13 22 15 24, julian_kift at hotmail.com writes:
>
>
>> I was browsing some of the auction catalogs and note Russo & Steele have
>> a trio of Pantera's at Scottsdale
>> http://www.russoandsteele.com/collector-car/1972-Pantera-DeTomaso/42582
>> http://www.russoandsteele.com/collector-car/1974-Detomaso-Pantera/42892
>> http://www.russoandsteele.com/collector-car/1972-De-Tomaso-Pantera/43822
>>
>>>> Don't bother looking for the second of these three cars.
>
> Yesterday, I was contacted out of the blue by a fellow who lives in
> Concord, CA (about 30 min from me) who has spent a lifetime doing restorations of
> Mustangs etc. and he decided he wanted a Pantera, specifically an L-model.
> He found my name on the internet and wanted to learn more. I sent him a
> bunch of info, and forwarded Julian's e-mail to him.
>
> He picked the phone up and bought the '74 Pantera sight unseen! So it
> will be delivered to him in a few weeks....
>
> Mike
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 45
> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 01:12:14 -0500 (EST)
> From: MikeLDrew at aol.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Two things ??
> To: timepiecepr2 at yahoo.com, lotus0005 at hotmail.com,
> detomaso at realbig.com, detomaso at poca.com
> Message-ID: <153b3.d2c99b6.3e21073e at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
>
> In a message dated 1/10/13 20 52 36, timepiecepr2 at yahoo.com writes:
>
>
>> You have a lot to learn about marriage, Mike. LOL
>>
>
>>>> HAHAHAHA!!!
>
> Mike
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 46
> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 01:12:14 -0500 (EST)
> From: MikeLDrew at aol.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Two things ??
> To: timepiecepr2 at yahoo.com, lotus0005 at hotmail.com,
> detomaso at realbig.com, detomaso at poca.com
> Message-ID: <153b3.d2c99b6.3e21073e at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
>
> In a message dated 1/10/13 20 52 36, timepiecepr2 at yahoo.com writes:
>
>
>> You have a lot to learn about marriage, Mike. LOL
>>
>
>>>> HAHAHAHA!!!
>
> Mike
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 47
> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 03:12:23 -0500 (EST)
> From: JDeRyke at aol.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 351w or 351c
> To: edducati at mac.com, detomaso at poca.com
> Message-ID: <28186.222f151.3e212367 at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
> It may not be just a choice between two quite different engines. An
> 18-yr-old performance 351-C should be pleasant to drive on the street, while a
> 634-bhp engine could be more than you really want, once the thrill of mucho
> power has worn thin. Three POCA members that I know have pulled their 600+ horse
> engines and replaced them with more mild builds that get better gas mileage
> and don't eat a set of rear tires every 6 months. One can't easily harness
> that much power in a Pantera on slick roads, and sideways in 3rd gear going
> to Sunday Brunch may spoil your lady's appetite. FWIW- J Deryke
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 48
> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 11:41:39 +0000 (UTC)
> From: shawkins777 at comcast.net
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 351w or 351c
> Cc: detomaso at poca.com
> Message-ID:
> <1517869783.2186737.1357904499884.JavaMail.root at sz0134a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> That's where EFI comes in to tame the beast and give it street manners.
>
> Steve
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: JDeRyke at aol.com
> To: edducati at mac.com, detomaso at poca.com
> Sent: Friday, January 11, 2013 2:12:23 AM
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 351w or 351c
>
> It may not be just a choice between two quite different engines. An
> 18-yr-old performance 351-C should be pleasant to drive on the street, while a
> 634-bhp engine could be more than you really want, once the thrill of mucho
> power has worn thin. Three POCA members that I know have pulled their 600+ horse
> engines and replaced them with more mild builds that get better gas mileage
> and don't eat a set of rear tires every 6 months. One can't easily harness
> that much power in a Pantera on slick roads, and sideways in 3rd gear going
> to Sunday Brunch may spoil your lady's appetite. FWIW- J Deryke
> _______________________________________________
>
> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at poca.com
> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 49
> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 05:54:01 -0800 (PST)
> From: B Hower <b.hower3400 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 351w or 351c
> To: Jerry Knotts <knottsj at galstar.com>, detomaso at poca.com, Will
> Kooiman <will.kooiman at gmail.com>
> Message-ID:
> <1357912441.48006.YahooMailClassic at web121102.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> And?you can run a 302 cam in a 351W -- but the firing order will then be different.
>
> Bud #3400 ( Drive it like there is no tomorrow -- for there may not be ! )
>
> --- On Thu, 1/10/13, Will Kooiman <will.kooiman at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> From: Will Kooiman <will.kooiman at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 351w or 351c
> To: "Jerry Knotts" <knottsj at galstar.com>, detomaso at poca.com
> Date: Thursday, January 10, 2013, 8:44 PM
>
>
> Correct.? The cam determines the firing order.? The cranks have the throws
> in the same place.
>
> I would be willing to bet that a 351W and 351C built with the same
> cam,carb,crank, firing order would still sound different due to the
> difference in the heads.? Most of the difference is in the cam, but the
> massive difference in intake and valve sizes has to make a difference.
>
> On 1/10/13 4:18 PM, "Jerry Knotts" <knottsj at galstar.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> I think you only have to change the cam to adjust the firing order.? Had
>> an engine built 10 years ago and the builder got a deal on a Cleveland
>> firing order Windsor cam.? It took HP Motorsports nearly a day to figure
>> it out and get the engine running.? That was only the tip of the iceberg
>> on that engine, so to speak.
>>
>> jerry
>>
>> On 1/10/2013 3:07 PM, Ken Green wrote:
>>> I hate the details...???I'd have to defer to someone who knows more
>>> than I do on this, but I think within limitations, you can play with the
>>> firing order without changing the crank, but you can only swap the
>>> compression and exhaust strokes between cylinders???
>>> ???
>>> Ken
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: "michael at michaelshortt.com" <michaelsavga at gmail.com>
>>> To: Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com>
>>> Cc: "detomaso at poca.com" <detomaso at poca.com>; Ed Mendez
>>> <edducati at mac.com>
>>> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 12:58 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 351w or 351c
>>>
>>> I think the cranks are really different and that would prevent changing
>>> the
>>> firing order.
>>>
>>> Michael
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 3:48 PM, Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I thought the sound might be different because different SBFs can have
>>>> different firing orders?? If that is what creates the difference in
>>>> sound,
>>>> is there any reason why you can't use the 351C firing order in a custom
>>>> built 351W?? Other than firing order, it seems like the cam, heads,
>>>> headers, etc. will determine how the car sounds regardless of having a
>>>> Cleveland or Windsor block.
>>>>
>>>> Ken
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From: LS <lashdeep at yahoo.com>
>>>> To: Ed Mendez <edducati at mac.com>; "detomaso at poca.com"
>>>> <detomaso at poca.com>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 12:23 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] 351w or 351c
>>>>
>>>> Have you driven the car at all with the Cleveland?
>>>>
>>>> You may like the characteristics and power delivery of one over the
>>>> other...and then there's the difference in sound...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> central
>>>> wines-spirits? est 1934
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 625 e street nw
>>>>
>>>> washington, dc 20004
>>>>
>>>> centralwines.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> facebook.com/CentralLiquors
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 202-737-2800
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From: Ed Mendez <edducati at mac.com>
>>>> To: "detomaso at poca.com" <detomaso at poca.com>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 2:40 PM
>>>> Subject: [DeTomaso] 351w or 351c
>>>>
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>> My 71 Pantera has a built 351c in it now, I know the builder who did it
>>>> and the previous owner (one of my best friends) so I know it is a well
>>>> built engine and pretty radical, but it was done about 18 years ago and
>>>> only broke in and started in the car but never driven; car has been in
>>>> garage and off the road for 28 years. Also has a flat tapper cam.
>>>> Neither
>>>> of them can honestly remember what the internals or specs are, but
>>>> knowing
>>>> them it is as radical as you can get 18 years ago.
>>>>
>>>> I am sure it's a great motor, but I have the chance right now to
>>>> obtain a
>>>> fully built 351w new Dart Sportsman block (4 bolt splayed mains) and
>>>> Dart
>>>> Pro 1 CNC aluminum heads, Dart manifold and stroked to 427ci all scat
>>>> internals with h-beam rods and full hydraulic roller motor. 634hp. I
>>>> have
>>>> an engine credit at a well established engine shop, so not going to
>>>> cost me
>>>> anything.
>>>>
>>>> My car is at a point that I can pull the motor now and do this.
>>>>
>>>> So, should I pull the trigger on the Winsor or just stay with the
>>>> Cleveland?
>>>>
>>>> Does a Windsor decrease the value? Is it a good upgrade for value on
>>>> the
>>>> car?
>>>>
>>>> Or the other option is pull the Cleveland stroke it to 408, aluminum
>>>> heads
>>>> and roll prize it.
>>>>
>>>> If I do the Windsor should I keep or sell the Cleveland?
>>>>
>>>> So just want to get opinions for you guys.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks Ed
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>
>>>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>>>
>>>> DeTomaso mailing list
>>>> DeTomaso at poca.com
>>>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>
>>>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>>>
>>>> DeTomaso mailing list
>>>> DeTomaso at poca.com
>>>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>
>>>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>>>
>>>> DeTomaso mailing list
>>>> DeTomaso at poca.com
>>>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>
>> DeTomaso mailing list
>> DeTomaso at poca.com
>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at poca.com
> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 50
> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 06:52:57 -0800
> From: Asa Jay Laughton <asajay at asajay.com>
> Subject: [DeTomaso] Test
> To: Detomaso Email <detomaso at realbig.com>
> Message-ID: <50F02749.9060005 at asajay.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Test email to realbig to see if it's forwarding. If so, it may explain
> duplicate emails.
>
> --
> Asa Jay Laughton, MSgt, USAFR, Retired
> & Shelley Marie
> Spokane, WA
> ******************************
> http://www.racingagainstautism.com
> http://www.teampanteraracing.com
> http://facebook.com/racingagainstautism
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 51
> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 10:06:16 -0500 (EST)
> From: vvics442 at aol.com
> Subject: [DeTomaso] Panterra all original for sale
> To: DeTomaso at poca.com
> Message-ID: <8CFBE2456BD8A37-1EB0-94A4 at webmail-m151.sysops.aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>
> Just wanted to let the group know an all original 1072 L car for sale on ebay Listing #140900964786.
> None more original and full paperwork. Car drives and handles like a charm! Thanks
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 52
> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 07:13:25 -0800
> From: Asa Jay Laughton <asajay at asajay.com>
> Subject: [DeTomaso] ATTENTION: Mailing List ANNOUNCEMENT
> To: detomaso at poca.com
> Message-ID: <50F02C15.4000905 at asajay.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Please DO NOT USE the email address "detomaso at realbig.com"
>
> When you use that email address -and- the email address
> detomaso at poca.com, you are creating -duplicates- of the same message.
>
> The old email address currently has a forwarder that we have asked Andy
> Poling to turn off. Once that is done, you will probably get a bounce
> notification from that server so you'll know if you are inadvertently
> using it. Until then, your email addressed to both will filter through
> the poca server -twice- (once directly and once from the forwarded
> address) and end up as two separate emails in user's inbox.
>
> This is creating frustration on the part of several users and has taken
> me several days to identify as the most probable cause.
>
> Please remove the email address "detomaso at realbig.com" from your address
> book.
>
> Thank you,
> Asa
>
> Asa Jay Laughton, MSgt, USAFR, Retired
> & Shelley Marie
> Spokane, WA
> ******************************
> http://www.racingagainstautism.com
> http://www.teampanteraracing.com
> http://facebook.com/racingagainstautism
>
>
> On 1/11/2013 6:52 AM, Asa Jay Laughton wrote:
>> Test email to realbig to see if it's forwarding. If so, it may explain
>> duplicate emails.
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 53
> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 11:24:29 -0500
> From: Scott Carpenter <scscottc at gmail.com>
> Subject: [DeTomaso] NPC: 2013 GT500
> To: detomaso at poca.com
> Message-ID:
> <CAHkGjfaCYA8eYXW3BD7FN7Gxg7g0bS2DK8jeR0-Y0Ky23FKJbw at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Awesome Kirby! I love the Shelbys but I have my eyes on a '13 Boss 302
> this spring. Since the plan is to take it to the track I figured the Boss
> is a better choice.
>
> Still love the Shelby as well. Congrats!
>
> Scott
> Pantera #1523
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 54
> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 11:34:17 -0500
> From: "michael at michaelshortt.com" <michaelsavga at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] NPC: 2013 GT500
> To: Scott Carpenter <scscottc at gmail.com>
> Cc: detomaso at poca.com
> Message-ID:
> <CAEWtxWoP1hv5YdqwbvQZs+VfDr7BjrFKfyQwD2J8DHx9Q1QsnA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Are you getting the Laguna Seca edition?
>
> Michael
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 11, 2013 at 11:24 AM, Scott Carpenter <scscottc at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Awesome Kirby! I love the Shelbys but I have my eyes on a '13 Boss 302
>> this spring. Since the plan is to take it to the track I figured the Boss
>> is a better choice.
>>
>> Still love the Shelby as well. Congrats!
>>
>> Scott
>> Pantera #1523
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>
>> DeTomaso mailing list
>> DeTomaso at poca.com
>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>
>
>
>
> --
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Michael L. Shortt
> Savannah, Georgia
> www.michaelshortt.com
> michael at michaelshortt.com
> 912-232-9390
>
>
> This email is protected by the Electronic Communications Privacy
> Act, 18 U.S.C. Sec. 2510-2521, is confidential and may be legally
> privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified
> that any retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this
> communication is strictly prohibited. Please reply to the sender that you
> have received this message in error, then delete it. Thank you
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 55
> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 10:38:32 -0600
> From: Kirby Schrader <kirby.schrader at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] NPC: 2013 GT500
> To: detomaso at poca.com
> Message-ID:
> <CACpDPGDs5bZ=rYFR=PmveGjkbmUgwWcXdtCecV7Sp+d6co1rZQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> Thanks, Scott.
> Had a couple of dry days here (rain again this weekend...), but I've found
> it's practically the same.
> Push throttle, spin tires.
> :-)
>
> I'm enjoying it. First new car I've had in 12 years. Well, not counting the
> GT40....
>
> Can you still get a Boss 302? I had read that Ford wasn't going to make any
> more of them?
>
> Thanks,
> Kirby
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 11, 2013 at 10:24 AM, Scott Carpenter <scscottc at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Awesome Kirby! I love the Shelbys but I have my eyes on a '13 Boss 302
>> this spring. Since the plan is to take it to the track I figured the Boss
>> is a better choice.
>>
>> Still love the Shelby as well. Congrats!
>>
>> Scott
>> Pantera #1523
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>
>> DeTomaso mailing list
>> DeTomaso at poca.com
>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 56
> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 10:22:55 -0700
> From: "msm at portata.com" <msm at portata.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] ATTENTION: Mailing List ANNOUNCEMENT
> To: Asa Jay Laughton <asajay at asajay.com>, "detomaso at poca.com"
> <detomaso at poca.com>
> Message-ID:
> <3DA25B3C4546E24B920FF5C6DCCA143C9CD4398993 at P3PW5EX1MB11.EX1.SECURESERVER.NET>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Thank you, Asa Jay.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: detomaso-bounces at poca.com [mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com] On Behalf Of Asa Jay Laughton
> Sent: Friday, January 11, 2013 7:13 AM
> To: detomaso at poca.com
> Subject: [DeTomaso] ATTENTION: Mailing List ANNOUNCEMENT
>
> Please DO NOT USE the email address "detomaso at realbig.com"
>
> When you use that email address -and- the email address detomaso at poca.com, you are creating -duplicates- of the same message.
>
> The old email address currently has a forwarder that we have asked Andy Poling to turn off. Once that is done, you will probably get a bounce notification from that server so you'll know if you are inadvertently using it. Until then, your email addressed to both will filter through the poca server -twice- (once directly and once from the forwarded
> address) and end up as two separate emails in user's inbox.
>
> This is creating frustration on the part of several users and has taken me several days to identify as the most probable cause.
>
> Please remove the email address "detomaso at realbig.com" from your address book.
>
> Thank you,
> Asa
>
> Asa Jay Laughton, MSgt, USAFR, Retired
> & Shelley Marie
> Spokane, WA
> ******************************
> http://www.racingagainstautism.com
> http://www.teampanteraracing.com
> http://facebook.com/racingagainstautism
>
>
> On 1/11/2013 6:52 AM, Asa Jay Laughton wrote:
>> Test email to realbig to see if it's forwarding. If so, it may
>> explain duplicate emails.
>>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at poca.com
> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at poca.com
> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
>
> End of DeTomaso Digest, Vol 103, Issue 11
> *****************************************
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