[DeTomaso] Wilwood Brakes WTF????

[richard bosch]

I do not like the idea of running different compound pads as they react to temperatures differently.That might work as a band aid but i do not think it is the correct way to fix the problem.
I also do not like reducing the fronts to be more balanced.I would rather see you improve the fronts and increase overall braking.I do not think a 6 piston front is required though,but if you  have money budgeted for that down the road go for it. 

What we do know for sure by comparing to Bobs car which worked.Same pad compound(BP20).Rotor size,i believe you both have 12.19 inch diameter,not sure if the width is the same or material.Both do not have cooling ducts yet.
Differences;front caliper/pad size.Rotor material,width or cooling vane count?Bias?Car weight?Driving style.
I think the cooling upgrade is a great idea(in fact i plan on copying you or doing something similar to front and rear ) 
I personally am leaning towards the bias being off,maybe just a little bit,but enough that once they got too hot they just melted away.
Maybe change the rear calipers to Superlite 2's that match the front and put in an adjustable valve in the rear circuit like a "normal" car?Upgrade the rotors as you mentioned yours might have a lower cooling vane count and lower quality material?




--- On Tue, 4/16/13, MikeLDrew at aol.com <MikeLDrew at aol.com> wrote:

From: MikeLDrew at aol.com <MikeLDrew at aol.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Wilwood Brakes WTF????
To: theemonkey at yahoo.com, detomaso at poca.com
Date: Tuesday, April 16, 2013, 5:29 PM



In a message dated 4/16/13 13 39 46, theemonkey at yahoo.com writes:





I talked with Bob Benson last night.He is unable to post to the forum at the moment as he just got a new computer and something is not set correctly yet.He is running the same brake pad compound you and i are both using(Wilwood BP20),and his pads are barely worn down at all.



>>>I don't think he was using the brakes very hard. :>) :>) :>)



>Granted his were installed just before Laguna Seca so they will have less wear than yours as i believe you have had the Bp20's on for awhile including being used at ThunderHill last fall correct?



>>>True--they worked great there, with almost no wear whatsoever.   The pads looked like new when I installed my slicks in the pits that morning at Laguna.



>By the way he had the BP10's before and they lasted 7 years and they are nowhere near as good as the BP20's.



>>>I have been VERY impressed with the BP20s as well.   They worked really well on the street, and at every other track I've been to.



>He does however have 6 piston front calipers which use a longer pad than the 4 piston calipers.



>>>Some do, some don't.   He has larger rotors and probably larger calipers/pads than I do.   Some of the smaller six-piston Wilwoods use the same 7420 pad as the four-piston Superlite IIs that I have.



>I do not think the larger front calipers are the reason that his lasted longer than yours.Although they certainly did not hurt.I think either the bias is off(not enough rear bias versus front)or the fronts got really hot versus the rears and thus wore out faster.



>>>Excess front bias would tend to overwork the fronts and thus get them really hot and make them wear out faster.   So that is really a single, long explanation rather than two different ones.



>I am leaning towards a bias issue as at first glance as i do not know why the rears would be that much cooler than the fronts.The fronts will work harder as they do more,but not as much as the wear differential between front and rear as you describe.



Just guessing on my part.



>>>It's an excellent point.   I did note that when the front got hot, the front brakes had reduced effectiveness (although the pedal remained rock-solid) and I eventually developed excessive rearward bias.



>PS, do you have an adjustable proportioning valve?If so do you know how it is set at the moment?



>>>No, I don't have an adjustable valve.   When Dennis Quella marketed this as a complete system, he said that he had calculated piston area and achieved proper proportioning by using smaller-piston calipers in the rear, and that therefore the stock pressure-reduction valve needed to be removed from the system.   You may well be right though--I might have insufficient rear braking due to the lack of a pressure-reduction system in the front (the same problem that Panteras with street brakes when the pressure reduction valve is removed).   I could experiment and put an adjustable proportioning valve in the front circuit to try to shift the brake bias rearward.   Alternately, I could buy six-piston front calipers, and move my existing larger-piston front calipers to the rear, which would theoretically improve braking at both ends (although at that point, front/rear bias becomes just a guess).



Or I could fit different-compound pads in the front to cope with the higher heat.   And I could/should fit floating rotors in the front to eliminate the chatter that seems to be common with Wilwood hats.



But, the doorbell just rang, and my package from Summit with new caliper seals and new BP20 pads just arrived, so in the short term, I'm going to the garage to just put everything back together as it was, so I can go to Phoenix!   After I'm done paying for a wedding, I can turn my attention back to this issue and see what might be done to improve things.



Thanks again for all the suggestions!



Finally, I should share this, which just arrived from an engineer-type in the Nor-Cal Shelby Club with lots of Laguna Seca track experience.   His experience tracks with mine, with respect to the improvements to be realized by simple brake cooling.   Don wrote:



====

Ahhhh …. Laguna Seca ….  Brakes!

 

For my own history, I used to run my ’88 Corvette at NorCal open tracks. The car handled well but was a bit short on braking at Laguna. On one hot day I went through a set of just installed brake pads in one day! Let’s say 2 hours of track time. The brake pedal went to the floor a couple of times going into turn 2 (I was braking early kinda expecting this to happen), you pump the brakes real fast when this happens! So, I backed off a bit on my pace to keep things from going completely to hell. Also, when the friction material gets thinner, more heat goes into the caliper pistons, so you are more likely to boil brake fluid. At the end of the day, the friction material was almost gone. Yes, the seals in the calipers were cooked. Brake material was on the inside of the front wheels, not just powder, but bigger pieces almost the size of sand particles.

 

It is my opinion that once the brake pad material gets really too hot, it ablates. Now, ablation means that the surface of the pad material burns off and with the flaming effluent, it keeps the brake pad (and rotor) surfaces from getting even hotter. That means the pads won’t last very long.

 

Most people would say, “get bigger brakes” or “you need to get so.and.so’s brake pads, they’re great.” Now, that may work fixing the symptoms. But it does not address the problem.

 

The problem is inadequate brake cooling. Look at it this way: how big is your radiator? How much air is forced through the radiator? Now, how much cooling is there for your brakes? Keep in mind that as far as “horsepower” is concerned, your brakes have at least 4 times the horsepower that your engine puts out. (Your case may vary … according to your engine horsepower and your brakes).

 

So … I went to the trouble to put cooling inlets in the air dam of the Corvette, and plumbed “SCAT” (flexible aircraft ducting) tubing to the brakes … wherein I fabricated a backing plate on each front wheel with the air ducting into the hat of the rotor. From then on, I did not have any braking problems at Laguna, no soft pedal into turn 2, no easing off the pace to keep the brakes cool, and little pad wear after 2 days of running. Same stock rotors, same stock pads (stock Corvette pads are actually pretty good).

 

For the next example on my ’87 Mustang coupe track car which I bought in 2001. It started out with stock brakes and aftermarket pads. These brakes were “OK” but sometimes going into turn 2 at Laguna, I’d get a really soft brake pedal, with resultant ‘more furious brake pedal pumpin.’ In 2002 I had the rear drums replaced 12” disk brakes (Corvette), which replaced the totally inadequate drums back there; that worked better. In 2003, I had 13” Brembo brakes installed in place of the stock brakes. That worked way better, but when the front pads would get thin, I would still get a soft brake pedal going into turn 2 at Laguna. In 2005 when I was reworking a lot of things on the car including decent paint, I installed front ducts (using the running light holes in the GT nose) and SCAT tubing forcing air into custom fabricated front disk backing plates forcing air into the hat of the rotor. I also did underbody air scoops and SCAT tubing into
 the hat of the rear rotors. Since then, these brakes have been awesome; even with Hoosier slicks braking from the California Speedway oval from 130 MPH into the abrupt 90 degree left hander going into the road course, I always have had more brake than tire. Oh, and the front pads last about 40 hours of track time. I have a hobbs meter in the car to keep track of running time, so this isn’t a guess.

 

I also did some measurements on the brake temperatures at Laguna after 10 hard laps, using an IR heat gun for measurements.

With duct air:

Right Front rotor: 102 C Right Front Caliper: 66 C                Left Front rotor: 89 C      Left Front Caliper: 117 C

With ducts plugged:

Right Front rotor: >400 C  Right Front Caliper: 132 C          Left Front rotor: >400 C Left Front Caliper: 121 C

With duct air:

Right Rear rotor: 84 C     Right Rear Caliper: 105 C               Left Rear rotor: 180 C     Left Rear Caliper: 161 C

 

 

My comments about these measurements are:

 that the brakes were cooling rapidly, which probably accounts for some of the right/left variances (it takes time to take the temperatures). To do it right, it would have to be done very quickly … which it wasn’t.

With the ducting plugged, the front rotor temps were “off scale” on the IR temperature gun which means the temperatures were over 400 C. At LEAST 300 C hotter without air blowing at the rotors. My friend who took the measurements said he was “overwhelmed” by the heat coming off the rotors when he took the measurements with the ducting plugged.

 

So, Mike, my recommendation is to first remove the calipers and rebuild them properly. Clean all parts with solvent, install new seals (using brake fluid as a lubricant when installing the pistons). New brake fluid and bleed the brakes (obviously, if the calipers were removed). Then go look at what the best way to blow air at your front brakes. Then have some fun fabricating ducting.

 

Don Wollesen



====



Off to the garage I go!



Mike