[DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system

Fri Apr 5 11:10:38 EDT 2013

I agree mostly with the fact that a stock system will work fine if
properly maintained.

I drove my car for years with a mostly stock system and never had a
problem except for the puking I'd get at high rpm.
And that was only when I backed off the throttle.
Consistently... I could come down the front straight at TWS in 4th
gear at 7000rpm, back off the throttle and start braking and watch
coolant puke out of the swirl tank.
I tried higher and higher pressure radiator caps with only marginal
improvement. 24psi was the last one....

As I said before, yes... it was the correct cap. I had a set of new
aluminum tanks from Quella installed many many years ago.

When I decided to try 180's with the new engine, I decided on the
center exit, so the condenser went to the front.
I added a oil/water cooler and modified the piping and then the
Cleveland went south and now I have a Clevor and the piping changed
again and....

Well, the thread is drifting and I'm at fault.

I still hate the cap being upstream of the water pump. That ain't
right, but it will work.

FWIW,
Kirby

On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 8:51 AM, Dick Koch <arkoch at earthlink.net> wrote:
> As Mikael has said, the stock cooling system works just fine if
> properly maintained and "bled."  The one thing I haven't changed in my many
> years of modifying my car is the cooling system, which still consists of the
> original fans, radiator and system components.
>
> In my opinion, there is generally no salient reason to modify the cooling
> system on the vast majority of street driven Panteras, except for attempts
> at updates that keep the car in tune with the times, such as the electrical
> and braking systems, and/or just wanting to try something new and different.
>
> My hat is off to all the folks that keep experimenting with new ways to
> improve the cars electrical and mechanical systems.  However in my case, I
> would rather not spend time or money on items that aren't a problem,
> especially those that if properly maintained work just fine.
>
> As an example of not replacing something that is not broke, I still have
> Dennis' aluminum lay down radiator and fans setup that I won in the raffle
> at the Pantera meet in Las Vegas in 2006 in its original shipping box in my
> pile of Pantera goodies I have collected over the years, and haven't felt
> the need to install in the car.
>
> But, to each his own.......
>
> Dick Koch - Atlanta
>
> 4/5/2013 1:58 AM, Mikael wrote:
>
> Hi all
> First, my apologies if it's confusing who I address, and not everybody gets
> answers. My email puts most of the POCA mail in the unwanted folder,
> something I often forget to check. And apparently I can't send mails to Jim
> directly, get an error message. So I hope Jim reads this.
>
> Here's my $0.02. I think we often go for too fancy solutions, and I also
> think that saying that the Pantera was designed with cooling problems is not
> true. The original design works, see below. I'm well aware that probably a
> larger percentage of Panteras than most other cars have had cooling
> problems, the margin for error because of mid engine, hi power, small intake
> grill etc is smaller. But a well maintained cooling system Working As
> Designed works.
>
> My experience:
> Pantera 2: 600 HP, no cooling problems. WAD except radiator laid forward,
> larger puller fans
> Pantera 1: 300 HP, had cooling issues when bought, system looked very very
> original (read: old). I then did the following:
> -New Fluidyne radiator, original position
> -One cooling fan didn't work, fixed that
> -Both pusher fans were sitting almost 1" away from the radiator, should sit
> tight
> -New water pump, standard Weiand IIRC
> -New proper Cleveland thermostat, 180 IIRC
> -One new coolant hose
> -Double clamped all hoses
> -New 15 lbs cap
> -50% water/50% antifreeze
> With all these basic things done, no more cooling problems. Not even in the
> French summer at Le Mans Classis that year where it was tropical
>
> No need to use Water Wetter (making water more wet? Is this documented to
> work?), larger tubes, orifice plates, electric water pumps etc etc. Some of
> these things might apply for a track car, but for car to be driven in
> traffic etc., I'd suggest staying with the designed system.
>
> And BTW, don't move your A/C to the front, then the engine and the A/C have
> to share the same air stream, not good for either. And a rear mounted A/C
> can cool just fine, if again WAD.
>
> I realize I might sound a bit conservative and counter intuitive to most of
> the Pantera community, because we do like to experiment, and most Panteras
> are much improved compared to original because of it. But when these
> modifications don't produce the desired result, it's probably worth
> considering what the factory intended, the WAD view.
>
> Jim, this is for you, can't mail you directly (wish we had a forum instead
> of this damn mail list):
> "Sorry, it's a bit confusing who's asking who :-) The short answer on
> ignition timing is yes, use a vacuum gauge, set the timing to highest steady
> needle and no detonation/start problems. The long answer is read my book
> Tuning Made Easy :-)
>
> Hope this helps, otherwise get back to me"
>
> Thanks
>
> Mikael
>
> -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
> Fra: Jim Gray [mailto:grayjim at att.net]
> Sendt: 4. april 2013 22:48
> Til: gow2 at rc-tech.net; Kirby Schrader
> Cc: Jack Donahue; detomaso at poca.com; Mikael
> Emne: Re: [DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system
>
> Water Wetter says it works best with water only.  I do as Kirby does and add
> just enough anti-freeze for corrosion resistance.
>
> Jim Gray
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: "gow2 at rc-tech.net" <gow2 at rc-tech.net>
> To: Kirby Schrader <kirby.schrader at gmail.com>
> Cc: Jack Donahue <demongusta at me.com>; detomaso at poca.com; Mikael
> <mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk>
> Sent: Thu, April 4, 2013 3:25:17 PM
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system
>
> Antifreeze raises the boiling temperature which is as vital as keeping it
> from freezing.
>
>
> Mikael,
>
> If you're asking me...???
>
> It's intention (at least from my point of view) is to allow the use of
> any thermostat (even a remote) as opposed to having to use the
> Cleveland specific version which has been known to bypass even though
> it was open and should have closed the bypass.
>
> The small hole in the plate helps get the air out of the system, which
> seems to be of major concern.  :-)
>
> I wouldn't recommend a 160 degree thermostat to anybody and I don't
> think I alluded to that. The engine would run too cold, like you say.
> 190 is much much better.
>
> I live just north of Houston... 60-40 is probably closer to what I
> run. It rarely gets below freezing here, so the antifreeze is mostly
> for corrosion inhibition.
>
> FWIW,
> Kirby
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 2:40 PM, Mikael <mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk> wrote:
>
> I'm a bit lost now. What is the purpose of that part? It defeats the
> Cleveland warm up possibility, but it doesn't let the engine run
> cooler, because the thermostat would close the hole anyway when warm,
>
> right?
>
> And if it's to get a 160 degree thermostat, I wouldn't recommend that.
> For a few reasons. Firstly, a colder thermostat rarely helps an
> overheating engine, because an engine rarely overheats because the
> thermostat is closed. Even getting near where it overheats, both a
> 160 and a 195 thermostat would be fully open, right? Secondly, the
> times where the engine is not overheating, cruising for instance, the
> engine will not be hot enough, which results in more wear, lower
> mileage and less power. A 160 thermostat is compensating for a
> problem, and not correcting it. Right?
>
> BTW, what coolant do you run? I always use 50%/50%.
>
> Mikael
>
> -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
> Fra: Jim Gray [mailto:grayjim at att.net]
> Sendt: 4. april 2013 18:00
> Til: Kirby Schrader; Jack Donahue
> Cc: detomaso at poca.com
> Emne: Re: [DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system
>
> Which is actually where I got mine.  I had seen it in one of Chuck
> Engle's engines.
>
> Jim Gray
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Kirby Schrader <kirby.schrader at gmail.com>
> To: Jack Donahue <demongusta at me.com>
> Cc: Jim Gray <grayjim at att.net>; detomaso at poca.com
> Sent: Thu, April 4, 2013 9:37:04 AM
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system
>
> The aluminum block off plate is available directly from the
> manufacturer.
>
> http://www.ipsco.org/Pantera%20Parts/Thermostat%20block%20off%20plate
> .htm
>
> FWIW,
> Kirby
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 9:31 AM, Jack Donahue <demongusta at me.com> wrote:
>
> The electric water pump is sounding better all the time.
> On Apr 4, 2013, at 6:48 AM, Jim Gray wrote:
>
> One problem is that there don't seem to be any Cleveland-specific
> 160 deg thermostats, only 180-192-195.  Those in the know say we
> should always run
>
> the
>
> 192-195 units and if the system is working correctly, we'll have no
> problems.
> Yeah, right.
>
> One change I made late last year was the installation of a new
> aluminum plate that replaces the brass one under the thermostat.
> This new aluminum plate
>
> has
>
> only a small 1/4 " hole so that the Cleveland-specific water pump
> or
>
> thermostat
>
> doesn't have to be used.  Now I can use a 160 deg Windsor or even
> Chevy  thermostat.  Also no water pump with the special bypass is
> needed.  We'll see if  any of this makes a difference.  The new
> aluminum plate came from Dennis  Quella.  The small hole lets any
> air out of the block.
>
> Jim Gray
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: John Donahue <demongusta at me.com>
> To: Jim Gray <grayjim at att.net>
> Cc: "DeTomaso at poca.com" <DeTomaso at poca.com>
> Sent: Thu, April 4, 2013 12:50:22 AM
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system
>
> Thank you, Jim. Isn't it frustrating to hear other owners content
> with their cooling, when WE are trying to get there.get so all there.
> It's like, "what
>
> the
>
> heck am I doing wrong? I'm ready to have my Fluidyne flushed, as
> suggested by  some here on the List - which I dearly appreciate -
> and I only have a couple  thousand miles on it, but I'm willing to
> try  anything. I live in so.
> California,
> and if a traffic jam occurs, and it it's more than a couple minutes
> with the air  on, or off, on interstate 5, in August, at 3 pm,  -
> I,m screwed. I was in  Austin  for the F-1 race and I-35 reminded me
> of
> I-5 in SoCal, I'm 65, played  with cars my whole life, and cooling
> this Pantera is a challenge. My car IS
>
> NOT
>
> half the cars I read about on the List. I have a sweet little white
> car
>
> without
>
> a million hp and a million pounds of torque - no fuelly, no exotic
> exhaust (
>
> I
>
> believe in luggage once in a while) etc. just a clean motor with a
> 750  holly.
> No
> reason to blame the motor for the "hot running". I figure I just
> haven't hit the  right button yet. I wish these cool running cars
> could be transported here
>
> and
>
> drive with me. Maybe the hard water here has built up in a couple
> years.
>
> Fine,
>
> I'll have it 'flushed", I'd like some feedback on what people run
> for a radiator  cap, and what pressure. I have a radiator pump to
> where I could blow all the  liquid out, then hang the car by it's
> rear, and fill it. Bleeding the
>
> radiator
>
> as needed to have pure liquid. That was Kirby's suggestion (filling
> it like that, not hanging the car up) - and I'd know for certain
> about air in the system. Sometimes I wonder about an air pocket in
> the water pump. Now I'm
>
> down
>
> to "how much pressure", the radiator cap, and thermostat. I've
> played around  with thermostats. If it wasn't difficult to change
> easily, I'd like to try 160
> -
> 195 thermostats on different days, just to rule that out. After I
> get an oil  temp gauge, I might be surprised how hot the oil is
> relative to  the coolant.
>
> Jack
>
>
> On Apr 3, 2013, at 6:26 AM, Jim Gray <grayjim at att.net> wrote:
>
> On the other hand, I have jacked mine sky-high, changed radiators,
> changed fans,
>
> changed thermostats (repeatedly), changed entine timing and
> *still* have problems with running too warm in the summer.
>
> Jim Gray
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Kirby Schrader <kirby.schrader at gmail.com>
> To: "detomaso at POCA.com list" <detomaso at poca.com>
> Sent: Tue, April 2, 2013 7:02:28 PM
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system
>
>
> Since owning a Pantera the first time in 1983, I have never jacked
> the car
>
> up
>
> in
>
> the back to get the air out of the system .
> Never had a problem.
>
> Oh, well .
>
> FWIW,
> Kirby
>
>
> On Apr 2, 2013, at 5:11 PM, michael at michaelshortt.com
>
> <michaelsavga at gmail.com>
>
> wrote:
>
> WTF?  Does anybody think a "cold air" bubbble would sink in hot
> water?
>
> There is only one proven way to get the air out the system,
> jacking up the rear.  It is this very procedure or lack thereof
> that gave our cars an overheating reputation that we still fight to
>
> this day.
>
> There is no need to reinvent this procedure.
>
> I have a 393 stroker with a Hall 5 core lay forward brass
> radiator, siliconce hoses and aluminum and stainless hard pipes
> with a dual electric fan on the back side of the radiator. I run
> a 1/3 100% antifreeze and 2/3 distiled water with one 16oz bottle
> of water wetter coolant mix.  I live in Savannah, Georgia where
> the summer temps are often 95-100 degrees with 90% humidity.
> After proper filling and bleeding, the only way my car would
> overheat would be to disconnect the fan and sit stil while reving
> the engine past 3,000 rpms.  It is all I can do to hit 180 and in
> more temporate weather 170 degrees.
> Aside from my coolant mix ( which is the same ratio used for
> light aircraft )  I would say the single biggest improve came as
> a result of having the radiator cleaned/boiled.
>
> I would encourage you to have your radiator cleaned, 40 years
> worth of tap water with city additives like lime, calcium and
> flourides do produce a white build up which can retrict smooth
> and speedy waterflow if not block off entire rows.
>
> Then use a proper mix, bleed it as described and witness the
> difference for yourself.
>
> Michael Shortt
> On Apr 2, 2013 5:31 PM, "Jack Donahue" <demongusta at me.com> wrote:
>
> Something to think about: Warm air rises, so I would think air
> in the system would have a tendency to RISE. With the rear in
> the air, and bleeding the radiator, aren't we "pushing" the
> water ahead of the air? Why not raise the front? Years ago I had
> an "explosion" in the engine bay as I was putting down a city
>
> street.
>
> A giant white plume of "white". I thought the engine blew. When
> I pulled over, lifted the deck lid and looked, it
>
> was
>
> devoid of any oil. Must have been steam. I called a mechanic
> that had worked on the car after Don Nicholson built and
> installed the motor, and
>
> he
>
> said "it burped". My question was, "how often can I expect this
> baby to burp?" never got an answer, and it has not happened since.
> Obviously, the pressure exceeded the cap's capacity, and it
> worked perfectly. Another
> thing: why not use a STANT (or a similar one) cooling system
> pump, pump up the system, and then raise the front of the car,
> putting the radiator at the high point, and maybe waiting a few
> minutes for the bubbles to rise. I guess this will be batted
> around forever. I do, however, like John Taphorn's article on
> cooling, and I think an oil temp gauge is imperative, even
> though I don't have one yet. I have Gary Hall's radiator and
> overflow caps, Fluidyne, SS tubes, 1250 sucker-fans, etc.  and
> my blood pressure is synchronous with the water temp gauge.
> Kirby Schrader told me in an email that the only way his car
> will overheat in 100 degree weather (at an
> intersection) is to shut of one of the cooling fans.Sounds like
> a dream (goal).
> On Apr 1, 2013, at 11:43 PM, Tomas Gunnarsson wrote:
>
> Mike,
>
> Air will not collect like that in the engine as long as there's
> enough water in the system to allow the water pump to push
> water into the block. As long as the pump has water supply to
> fill the block and the thermostat neck high enough to run over
> into the tube going away from the engine no air pocket should
> be present in the engine. There will be two air pockets. One in
> the radiator, the other in the swirl tank if you have one. If
> no swirl tank is present, the rear air pocket will be in the
> thermostat outlet tube if the system is plumbed in a reasonably
> conventional way.
>
> Filling an empty system with the rear of the car jacked up is
> however a way to ensure that the engine contains a certain
> amount of air. Hence my surprise when I over and over hear that
> it's the best way to fill the system.
>
> Tomas
>
> <-----Ursprungligt Meddelande----->
> From: MikeLDrew at aol.com [MikeLDrew at aol.com]
> Sent: 2/4/2013 1:34:54 AM
> To: guson at home.se
> Cc: detomaso at poca.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system
>
>
> In a message dated 4/1/13 13 39 2, guson at home.se writes:
>
>
>
>
>       I beg to differ. As soon as you start driving the car it
> will  see G-forces much greater than those induced by jacking or
> parking on a  slope. There is no possibility that air would be
> trapped in the straight  under car tubes after that.
>
>
>
> No.  Instead, the air that WAS trapped in the pipes before
> you
>
> started driving, will now be trapped in your engine!  And
> you're driving!
>
> And overheating.
>
> The point of the exercise is to purge the system of air (as
> much as
> possible) *before* you start driving it.
>
> There was a significant incident that happened many years ago
> to a new Pantera owner here in PCNC land, named Walter Villere.
> He bought his Pantera from a police auction, a rather scruffy
> but solid Euro GTS, and only paid $13K or something like that.
> One side was beat up because it had been parked in a fenced lot
> right against the fence, and the wind had whipped the fence and
> battered the side of the car.  But the damage was all rather
> trivial.
>
> Walter knew a lot about cars and nothing about Panteras.  First
> thing he did when he got it home was to change all the
> fluids--water and oil.  He drained all the coolant, then just
> filled it up and topped it off until the tank was full, on
> level ground.  He then closed the cap, and took off across the
> Richmond bridge, which started right outside his office.
>
> Walter was/is a maniac.  Great guy, but a maniac.  He wanted to
> see how fast it would go, and the bridge is a great place
> because there's no place for cops to hide.  Traffic was light
> so he just ran it up to redline in 5th gear.  Having a great
> time, eyes on the road of course, so he failed to notice that
> because he hadn't properly filled the cooling system, the temp
>
> gauge was pegged.
>
> BOOM!!!!!!  The engine let go like Krakatoa!
>
> Only AFTER that, and a new engine from Hall Pantera, did he
> learn the importance of the proper filling/bleeding procedure....
>
>
>
> I agree that you want to bleed the radiator and top up at the
>
> rear filler but the jacking is a waste of time.
>
>
>
> It doesn't cost anything, doesn't hurt anything, and not
> doing it has
>
> led to at least minor overheating problems in the past.  And
> the manual directs you to do it.
>
> So why WOULDN'T you do it?
>
> Mike
>
>
>
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