[DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system

Fri Apr 5 10:43:38 EDT 2013

Yes, I have 180's on my Pantera now... Another one of those long
painful expensive stories.
If the painter gets my car done in time, I plan to drive it to Phoenix.
I won't have everything done that I'd planned to though...
 If he doesn't?
Well, it won't be there.

On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 8:43 AM, Charles McCall <charlesmccall at gmail.com> wrote:
> Kirby - you have 180's? Since when? Or are you talking about the GT40?
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 2:59 PM, Kirby Schrader <kirby.schrader at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> Oh, crap.... I moved my condenser to the front.
>> :-)
>>
>> Oh, my... What should I do?
>>
>> Just kidding.... works for me. I'd have to get rid of the 180's or
>> reroute them to the side.
>> Oh, well....
>> Kirby
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 12:58 AM, Mikael <mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk> wrote:
>> > Hi all
>> > First, my apologies if it's confusing who I address, and not everybody
>> > gets
>> > answers. My email puts most of the POCA mail in the unwanted folder,
>> > something I often forget to check. And apparently I can't send mails to
>> > Jim
>> > directly, get an error message. So I hope Jim reads this.
>> >
>> > Here's my $0.02. I think we often go for too fancy solutions, and I also
>> > think that saying that the Pantera was designed with cooling problems is
>> > not
>> > true. The original design works, see below. I'm well aware that probably
>> > a
>> > larger percentage of Panteras than most other cars have had cooling
>> > problems, the margin for error because of mid engine, hi power, small
>> > intake
>> > grill etc is smaller. But a well maintained cooling system Working As
>> > Designed works.
>> >
>> > My experience:
>> > Pantera 2: 600 HP, no cooling problems. WAD except radiator laid
>> > forward,
>> > larger puller fans
>> > Pantera 1: 300 HP, had cooling issues when bought, system looked very
>> > very
>> > original (read: old). I then did the following:
>> > -New Fluidyne radiator, original position
>> > -One cooling fan didn't work, fixed that
>> > -Both pusher fans were sitting almost 1" away from the radiator, should
>> > sit
>> > tight
>> > -New water pump, standard Weiand IIRC
>> > -New proper Cleveland thermostat, 180 IIRC
>> > -One new coolant hose
>> > -Double clamped all hoses
>> > -New 15 lbs cap
>> > -50% water/50% antifreeze
>> > With all these basic things done, no more cooling problems. Not even in
>> > the
>> > French summer at Le Mans Classis that year where it was tropical
>> >
>> > No need to use Water Wetter (making water more wet? Is this documented
>> > to
>> > work?), larger tubes, orifice plates, electric water pumps etc etc. Some
>> > of
>> > these things might apply for a track car, but for car to be driven in
>> > traffic etc., I'd suggest staying with the designed system.
>> >
>> > And BTW, don't move your A/C to the front, then the engine and the A/C
>> > have
>> > to share the same air stream, not good for either. And a rear mounted
>> > A/C
>> > can cool just fine, if again WAD.
>> >
>> > I realize I might sound a bit conservative and counter intuitive to most
>> > of
>> > the Pantera community, because we do like to experiment, and most
>> > Panteras
>> > are much improved compared to original because of it. But when these
>> > modifications don't produce the desired result, it's probably worth
>> > considering what the factory intended, the WAD view.
>> >
>> > Jim, this is for you, can't mail you directly (wish we had a forum
>> > instead
>> > of this damn mail list):
>> > "Sorry, it's a bit confusing who's asking who :-) The short answer on
>> > ignition timing is yes, use a vacuum gauge, set the timing to highest
>> > steady
>> > needle and no detonation/start problems. The long answer is read my book
>> > Tuning Made Easy :-)
>> >
>> > Hope this helps, otherwise get back to me"
>> >
>> > Thanks
>> >
>> > Mikael
>> >
>> > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
>> > Fra: Jim Gray [mailto:grayjim at att.net]
>> > Sendt: 4. april 2013 22:48
>> > Til: gow2 at rc-tech.net; Kirby Schrader
>> > Cc: Jack Donahue; detomaso at poca.com; Mikael
>> > Emne: Re: [DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system
>> >
>> > Water Wetter says it works best with water only.  I do as Kirby does and
>> > add
>> > just enough anti-freeze for corrosion resistance.
>>
>> >
>> > Jim Gray
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message ----
>> > From: "gow2 at rc-tech.net" <gow2 at rc-tech.net>
>> > To: Kirby Schrader <kirby.schrader at gmail.com>
>> > Cc: Jack Donahue <demongusta at me.com>; detomaso at poca.com; Mikael
>> > <mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk>
>> > Sent: Thu, April 4, 2013 3:25:17 PM
>> > Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system
>> >
>> > Antifreeze raises the boiling temperature which is as vital as keeping
>> > it
>> > from freezing.
>> >
>> >
>> >> Mikael,
>> >>
>> >> If you're asking me...???
>> >>
>> >> It's intention (at least from my point of view) is to allow the use of
>> >> any thermostat (even a remote) as opposed to having to use the
>> >> Cleveland specific version which has been known to bypass even though
>> >> it was open and should have closed the bypass.
>> >>
>> >> The small hole in the plate helps get the air out of the system, which
>> >> seems to be of major concern.  :-)
>> >>
>> >> I wouldn't recommend a 160 degree thermostat to anybody and I don't
>> >> think I alluded to that. The engine would run too cold, like you say.
>> >> 190 is much much better.
>> >>
>> >> I live just north of Houston... 60-40 is probably closer to what I
>> >> run. It rarely gets below freezing here, so the antifreeze is mostly
>> >> for corrosion inhibition.
>> >>
>> >> FWIW,
>> >> Kirby
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 2:40 PM, Mikael <mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>> I'm a bit lost now. What is the purpose of that part? It defeats the
>> >>> Cleveland warm up possibility, but it doesn't let the engine run
>> >>> cooler, because the thermostat would close the hole anyway when warm,
>> > right?
>> >>>
>> >>> And if it's to get a 160 degree thermostat, I wouldn't recommend that.
>> >>> For a few reasons. Firstly, a colder thermostat rarely helps an
>> >>> overheating engine, because an engine rarely overheats because the
>> >>> thermostat is closed. Even getting near where it overheats, both a
>> >>> 160 and a 195 thermostat would be fully open, right? Secondly, the
>> >>> times where the engine is not overheating, cruising for instance, the
>> >>> engine will not be hot enough, which results in more wear, lower
>> >>> mileage and less power. A 160 thermostat is compensating for a
>> >>> problem, and not correcting it. Right?
>> >>>
>> >>> BTW, what coolant do you run? I always use 50%/50%.
>> >>>
>> >>> Mikael
>> >>>
>> >>> -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
>> >>> Fra: Jim Gray [mailto:grayjim at att.net]
>> >>> Sendt: 4. april 2013 18:00
>> >>> Til: Kirby Schrader; Jack Donahue
>> >>> Cc: detomaso at poca.com
>> >>> Emne: Re: [DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system
>> >>>
>> >>> Which is actually where I got mine.  I had seen it in one of Chuck
>> >>> Engle's engines.
>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Jim Gray
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> ----- Original Message ----
>> >>> From: Kirby Schrader <kirby.schrader at gmail.com>
>> >>> To: Jack Donahue <demongusta at me.com>
>> >>> Cc: Jim Gray <grayjim at att.net>; detomaso at poca.com
>> >>> Sent: Thu, April 4, 2013 9:37:04 AM
>> >>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system
>> >>>
>> >>> The aluminum block off plate is available directly from the
>> >>> manufacturer.
>> >>>
>> >>> http://www.ipsco.org/Pantera%20Parts/Thermostat%20block%20off%20plate
>> >>> .htm
>> >>>
>> >>> FWIW,
>> >>> Kirby
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 9:31 AM, Jack Donahue <demongusta at me.com>
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>>> The electric water pump is sounding better all the time.
>> >>>> On Apr 4, 2013, at 6:48 AM, Jim Gray wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> One problem is that there don't seem to be any Cleveland-specific
>> >>>>> 160 deg thermostats, only 180-192-195.  Those in the know say we
>> >>>>> should always run
>> >>> the
>> >>>>> 192-195 units and if the system is working correctly, we'll have no
>> >>>>> problems.
>> >>>>> Yeah, right.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> One change I made late last year was the installation of a new
>> >>>>> aluminum plate that replaces the brass one under the thermostat.
>> >>>>> This new aluminum plate
>> >>> has
>> >>>>> only a small 1/4 " hole so that the Cleveland-specific water pump
>> >>>>> or
>> >>>>thermostat
>> >>>>> doesn't have to be used.  Now I can use a 160 deg Windsor or even
>> >>>>>Chevy  thermostat.  Also no water pump with the special bypass is
>> >>>>>needed.  We'll see if  any of this makes a difference.  The new
>> >>>>>aluminum plate came from Dennis  Quella.  The small hole lets any
>> >>>>>air out of the block.
>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Jim Gray
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----
>> >>>>> From: John Donahue <demongusta at me.com>
>> >>>>> To: Jim Gray <grayjim at att.net>
>> >>>>> Cc: "DeTomaso at poca.com" <DeTomaso at poca.com>
>> >>>>> Sent: Thu, April 4, 2013 12:50:22 AM
>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Thank you, Jim. Isn't it frustrating to hear other owners content
>> >>>>> with their cooling, when WE are trying to get there.get so all
>> >>>>> there.
>> >>>>> It's like, "what
>> >>>>the
>> >>>>> heck am I doing wrong? I'm ready to have my Fluidyne flushed, as
>> >>>>>suggested by  some here on the List - which I dearly appreciate -
>> >>>>>and I only have a couple  thousand miles on it, but I'm willing to
>> >>>>>try  anything. I live in so.
>> >>>>>California,
>> >>>>> and if a traffic jam occurs, and it it's more than a couple minutes
>> >>>>>with the air  on, or off, on interstate 5, in August, at 3 pm,  -
>> >>>>>I,m screwed. I was in  Austin  for the F-1 race and I-35 reminded me
>> >>>>>of
>> >>>>>I-5 in SoCal, I'm 65, played  with cars my whole life, and cooling
>> >>>>>this Pantera is a challenge. My car IS
>> >>>>NOT
>> >>>>> half the cars I read about on the List. I have a sweet little white
>> >>>>> car
>> >>>>without
>> >>>>> a million hp and a million pounds of torque - no fuelly, no exotic
>> >>>>> exhaust (
>> >>> I
>> >>>>> believe in luggage once in a while) etc. just a clean motor with a
>> >>>>>750  holly.
>> >>>>>No
>> >>>>> reason to blame the motor for the "hot running". I figure I just
>> >>>>>haven't hit the  right button yet. I wish these cool running cars
>> >>>>>could be transported here
>> >>> and
>> >>>>> drive with me. Maybe the hard water here has built up in a couple
>> >>>>> years.
>> >>> Fine,
>> >>>>> I'll have it 'flushed", I'd like some feedback on what people run
>> >>>>>for a radiator  cap, and what pressure. I have a radiator pump to
>> >>>>>where I could blow all the  liquid out, then hang the car by it's
>> >>>>>rear, and fill it. Bleeding the
>> >>> radiator
>> >>>>> as needed to have pure liquid. That was Kirby's suggestion (filling
>> >>>>> it like that, not hanging the car up) - and I'd know for certain
>> >>>>> about air in the system. Sometimes I wonder about an air pocket in
>> >>>>> the water pump. Now I'm
>> >>> down
>> >>>>> to "how much pressure", the radiator cap, and thermostat. I've
>> >>>>>played around  with thermostats. If it wasn't difficult to change
>> >>>>>easily, I'd like to try 160
>> >>>>>-
>> >>>>> 195 thermostats on different days, just to rule that out. After I
>> >>>>>get an oil  temp gauge, I might be surprised how hot the oil is
>> >>>>>relative to  the coolant.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Jack
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> On Apr 3, 2013, at 6:26 AM, Jim Gray <grayjim at att.net> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> On the other hand, I have jacked mine sky-high, changed radiators,
>> >>>>>> changed fans,
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> changed thermostats (repeatedly), changed entine timing and
>> >>>>>> *still* have problems with running too warm in the summer.
>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Jim Gray
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----
>> >>>>>> From: Kirby Schrader <kirby.schrader at gmail.com>
>> >>>>>> To: "detomaso at POCA.com list" <detomaso at poca.com>
>> >>>>>> Sent: Tue, April 2, 2013 7:02:28 PM
>> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Since owning a Pantera the first time in 1983, I have never jacked
>> >>>>>> the car
>> >>> up
>> >>>>>> in
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> the back to get the air out of the system .
>> >>>>>> Never had a problem.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Oh, well .
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> FWIW,
>> >>>>>> Kirby
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> On Apr 2, 2013, at 5:11 PM, michael at michaelshortt.com
>> >>>><michaelsavga at gmail.com>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> WTF?  Does anybody think a "cold air" bubbble would sink in hot
>> >>>>>>> water?
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> There is only one proven way to get the air out the system,
>> >>>>>>> jacking up the rear.  It is this very procedure or lack thereof
>> >>>>>>> that gave our cars an overheating reputation that we still fight
>> >>>>>>> to
>> > this day.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> There is no need to reinvent this procedure.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> I have a 393 stroker with a Hall 5 core lay forward brass
>> >>>>>>> radiator, siliconce hoses and aluminum and stainless hard pipes
>> >>>>>>> with a dual electric fan on the back side of the radiator. I run
>> >>>>>>> a 1/3 100% antifreeze and 2/3 distiled water with one 16oz bottle
>> >>>>>>> of water wetter coolant mix.  I live in Savannah, Georgia where
>> >>>>>>> the summer temps are often 95-100 degrees with 90% humidity.
>> >>>>>>> After proper filling and bleeding, the only way my car would
>> >>>>>>> overheat would be to disconnect the fan and sit stil while reving
>> >>>>>>> the engine past 3,000 rpms.  It is all I can do to hit 180 and in
>> >>>>>>> more temporate weather 170 degrees.
>> >>>>>>> Aside from my coolant mix ( which is the same ratio used for
>> >>>>>>> light aircraft )  I would say the single biggest improve came as
>> >>>>>>> a result of having the radiator cleaned/boiled.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> I would encourage you to have your radiator cleaned, 40 years
>> >>>>>>> worth of tap water with city additives like lime, calcium and
>> >>>>>>> flourides do produce a white build up which can retrict smooth
>> >>>>>>> and speedy waterflow if not block off entire rows.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Then use a proper mix, bleed it as described and witness the
>> >>>>>>> difference for yourself.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Michael Shortt
>> >>>>>>> On Apr 2, 2013 5:31 PM, "Jack Donahue" <demongusta at me.com> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Something to think about: Warm air rises, so I would think air
>> >>>>>>>> in the system would have a tendency to RISE. With the rear in
>> >>>>>>>> the air, and bleeding the radiator, aren't we "pushing" the
>> >>>>>>>> water ahead of the air? Why not raise the front? Years ago I had
>> >>>>>>>> an "explosion" in the engine bay as I was putting down a city
>> > street.
>> >>>>>>>> A giant white plume of "white". I thought the engine blew. When
>> >>>>>>>> I pulled over, lifted the deck lid and looked, it
>> >>> was
>> >>>>>>>> devoid of any oil. Must have been steam. I called a mechanic
>> >>>>>>>> that had worked on the car after Don Nicholson built and
>> >>>>>>>> installed the motor, and
>> >>> he
>> >>>>>>>> said "it burped". My question was, "how often can I expect this
>> >>>>>>>> baby to burp?" never got an answer, and it has not happened
>> >>>>>>>> since.
>> >>>>>>>> Obviously, the pressure exceeded the cap's capacity, and it
>> >>>>>>>> worked perfectly. Another
>> >>>>>>>> thing: why not use a STANT (or a similar one) cooling system
>> >>>>>>>> pump, pump up the system, and then raise the front of the car,
>> >>>>>>>> putting the radiator at the high point, and maybe waiting a few
>> >>>>>>>> minutes for the bubbles to rise. I guess this will be batted
>> >>>>>>>> around forever. I do, however, like John Taphorn's article on
>> >>>>>>>> cooling, and I think an oil temp gauge is imperative, even
>> >>>>>>>> though I don't have one yet. I have Gary Hall's radiator and
>> >>>>>>>> overflow caps, Fluidyne, SS tubes, 1250 sucker-fans, etc.  and
>> >>>>>>>> my blood pressure is synchronous with the water temp gauge.
>> >>>>>>>> Kirby Schrader told me in an email that the only way his car
>> >>>>>>>> will overheat in 100 degree weather (at an
>> >>>>>>>> intersection) is to shut of one of the cooling fans.Sounds like
>> >>>>>>>> a dream (goal).
>> >>>>>>>> On Apr 1, 2013, at 11:43 PM, Tomas Gunnarsson wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Mike,
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Air will not collect like that in the engine as long as there's
>> >>>>>>>>> enough water in the system to allow the water pump to push
>> >>>>>>>>> water into the block. As long as the pump has water supply to
>> >>>>>>>>> fill the block and the thermostat neck high enough to run over
>> >>>>>>>>> into the tube going away from the engine no air pocket should
>> >>>>>>>>> be present in the engine. There will be two air pockets. One in
>> >>>>>>>>> the radiator, the other in the swirl tank if you have one. If
>> >>>>>>>>> no swirl tank is present, the rear air pocket will be in the
>> >>>>>>>>> thermostat outlet tube if the system is plumbed in a reasonably
>> >>>>>>>>> conventional way.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Filling an empty system with the rear of the car jacked up is
>> >>>>>>>>> however a way to ensure that the engine contains a certain
>> >>>>>>>>> amount of air. Hence my surprise when I over and over hear that
>> >>>>>>>>> it's the best way to fill the system.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Tomas
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> <-----Ursprungligt Meddelande----->
>> >>>>>>>>> From: MikeLDrew at aol.com [MikeLDrew at aol.com]
>> >>>>>>>>> Sent: 2/4/2013 1:34:54 AM
>> >>>>>>>>> To: guson at home.se
>> >>>>>>>>> Cc: detomaso at poca.com
>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> In a message dated 4/1/13 13 39 2, guson at home.se writes:
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>      I beg to differ. As soon as you start driving the car it
>> >>>>>>>>>will  see G-forces much greater than those induced by jacking or
>> >>>>>>>>>parking on a  slope. There is no possibility that air would be
>> >>>>>>>>>trapped in the straight  under car tubes after that.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> No.  Instead, the air that WAS trapped in the pipes before
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> you
>> >>>>>>>>> started driving, will now be trapped in your engine!  And
>> >>>>>>>>> you're driving!
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> And overheating.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> The point of the exercise is to purge the system of air (as
>> >>>>>>>>> much as
>> >>>>>>>>> possible) *before* you start driving it.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> There was a significant incident that happened many years ago
>> >>>>>>>>> to a new Pantera owner here in PCNC land, named Walter Villere.
>> >>>>>>>>> He bought his Pantera from a police auction, a rather scruffy
>> >>>>>>>>> but solid Euro GTS, and only paid $13K or something like that.
>> >>>>>>>>> One side was beat up because it had been parked in a fenced lot
>> >>>>>>>>> right against the fence, and the wind had whipped the fence and
>> >>>>>>>>> battered the side of the car.  But the damage was all rather
>> >>>>>>>>> trivial.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Walter knew a lot about cars and nothing about Panteras.  First
>> >>>>>>>>> thing he did when he got it home was to change all the
>> >>>>>>>>> fluids--water and oil.  He drained all the coolant, then just
>> >>>>>>>>> filled it up and topped it off until the tank was full, on
>> >>>>>>>>> level ground.  He then closed the cap, and took off across the
>> >>>>>>>>> Richmond bridge, which started right outside his office.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Walter was/is a maniac.  Great guy, but a maniac.  He wanted to
>> >>>>>>>>> see how fast it would go, and the bridge is a great place
>> >>>>>>>>> because there's no place for cops to hide.  Traffic was light
>> >>>>>>>>> so he just ran it up to redline in 5th gear.  Having a great
>> >>>>>>>>> time, eyes on the road of course, so he failed to notice that
>> >>>>>>>>> because he hadn't properly filled the cooling system, the temp
>> > gauge was pegged.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> BOOM!!!!!!  The engine let go like Krakatoa!
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Only AFTER that, and a new engine from Hall Pantera, did he
>> >>>>>>>>> learn the importance of the proper filling/bleeding
>> >>>>>>>>> procedure....
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> I agree that you want to bleed the radiator and top up at the
>> >>>>>>>>> rear filler but the jacking is a waste of time.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> It doesn't cost anything, doesn't hurt anything, and not
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> doing it has
>> >>>>>>>>> led to at least minor overheating problems in the past.  And
>> >>>>>>>>> the manual directs you to do it.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> So why WOULDN'T you do it?
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Mike
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> <P><p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2"
>>
>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>style="font-size:13.5px">____________________________________________
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>> >>>>>>>>
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>> >>>>>>>> :
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>> >>>>>>>>- Gratis,  enkelt och s kert!</a></font>
>>
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