[DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system

Charles McCall charlesmccall at gmail.com
Fri Apr 5 09:43:47 EDT 2013


Kirby - you have 180's? Since when? Or are you talking about the GT40?


On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 2:59 PM, Kirby Schrader <kirby.schrader at gmail.com>wrote:

> Oh, crap.... I moved my condenser to the front.
> :-)
>
> Oh, my... What should I do?
>
> Just kidding.... works for me. I'd have to get rid of the 180's or
> reroute them to the side.
> Oh, well....
> Kirby
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 12:58 AM, Mikael <mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk> wrote:
> > Hi all
> > First, my apologies if it's confusing who I address, and not everybody
> gets
> > answers. My email puts most of the POCA mail in the unwanted folder,
> > something I often forget to check. And apparently I can't send mails to
> Jim
> > directly, get an error message. So I hope Jim reads this.
> >
> > Here's my $0.02. I think we often go for too fancy solutions, and I also
> > think that saying that the Pantera was designed with cooling problems is
> not
> > true. The original design works, see below. I'm well aware that probably
> a
> > larger percentage of Panteras than most other cars have had cooling
> > problems, the margin for error because of mid engine, hi power, small
> intake
> > grill etc is smaller. But a well maintained cooling system Working As
> > Designed works.
> >
> > My experience:
> > Pantera 2: 600 HP, no cooling problems. WAD except radiator laid forward,
> > larger puller fans
> > Pantera 1: 300 HP, had cooling issues when bought, system looked very
> very
> > original (read: old). I then did the following:
> > -New Fluidyne radiator, original position
> > -One cooling fan didn't work, fixed that
> > -Both pusher fans were sitting almost 1" away from the radiator, should
> sit
> > tight
> > -New water pump, standard Weiand IIRC
> > -New proper Cleveland thermostat, 180 IIRC
> > -One new coolant hose
> > -Double clamped all hoses
> > -New 15 lbs cap
> > -50% water/50% antifreeze
> > With all these basic things done, no more cooling problems. Not even in
> the
> > French summer at Le Mans Classis that year where it was tropical
> >
> > No need to use Water Wetter (making water more wet? Is this documented to
> > work?), larger tubes, orifice plates, electric water pumps etc etc. Some
> of
> > these things might apply for a track car, but for car to be driven in
> > traffic etc., I'd suggest staying with the designed system.
> >
> > And BTW, don't move your A/C to the front, then the engine and the A/C
> have
> > to share the same air stream, not good for either. And a rear mounted A/C
> > can cool just fine, if again WAD.
> >
> > I realize I might sound a bit conservative and counter intuitive to most
> of
> > the Pantera community, because we do like to experiment, and most
> Panteras
> > are much improved compared to original because of it. But when these
> > modifications don't produce the desired result, it's probably worth
> > considering what the factory intended, the WAD view.
> >
> > Jim, this is for you, can't mail you directly (wish we had a forum
> instead
> > of this damn mail list):
> > "Sorry, it's a bit confusing who's asking who :-) The short answer on
> > ignition timing is yes, use a vacuum gauge, set the timing to highest
> steady
> > needle and no detonation/start problems. The long answer is read my book
> > Tuning Made Easy :-)
> >
> > Hope this helps, otherwise get back to me"
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Mikael
> >
> > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
> > Fra: Jim Gray [mailto:grayjim at att.net]
> > Sendt: 4. april 2013 22:48
> > Til: gow2 at rc-tech.net; Kirby Schrader
> > Cc: Jack Donahue; detomaso at poca.com; Mikael
> > Emne: Re: [DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system
> >
> > Water Wetter says it works best with water only.  I do as Kirby does and
> add
> > just enough anti-freeze for corrosion resistance.
> >
> > Jim Gray
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----
> > From: "gow2 at rc-tech.net" <gow2 at rc-tech.net>
> > To: Kirby Schrader <kirby.schrader at gmail.com>
> > Cc: Jack Donahue <demongusta at me.com>; detomaso at poca.com; Mikael
> > <mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk>
> > Sent: Thu, April 4, 2013 3:25:17 PM
> > Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system
> >
> > Antifreeze raises the boiling temperature which is as vital as keeping it
> > from freezing.
> >
> >
> >> Mikael,
> >>
> >> If you're asking me...???
> >>
> >> It's intention (at least from my point of view) is to allow the use of
> >> any thermostat (even a remote) as opposed to having to use the
> >> Cleveland specific version which has been known to bypass even though
> >> it was open and should have closed the bypass.
> >>
> >> The small hole in the plate helps get the air out of the system, which
> >> seems to be of major concern.  :-)
> >>
> >> I wouldn't recommend a 160 degree thermostat to anybody and I don't
> >> think I alluded to that. The engine would run too cold, like you say.
> >> 190 is much much better.
> >>
> >> I live just north of Houston... 60-40 is probably closer to what I
> >> run. It rarely gets below freezing here, so the antifreeze is mostly
> >> for corrosion inhibition.
> >>
> >> FWIW,
> >> Kirby
> >>
> >>
> >> On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 2:40 PM, Mikael <mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk>
> wrote:
> >>> I'm a bit lost now. What is the purpose of that part? It defeats the
> >>> Cleveland warm up possibility, but it doesn't let the engine run
> >>> cooler, because the thermostat would close the hole anyway when warm,
> > right?
> >>>
> >>> And if it's to get a 160 degree thermostat, I wouldn't recommend that.
> >>> For a few reasons. Firstly, a colder thermostat rarely helps an
> >>> overheating engine, because an engine rarely overheats because the
> >>> thermostat is closed. Even getting near where it overheats, both a
> >>> 160 and a 195 thermostat would be fully open, right? Secondly, the
> >>> times where the engine is not overheating, cruising for instance, the
> >>> engine will not be hot enough, which results in more wear, lower
> >>> mileage and less power. A 160 thermostat is compensating for a
> >>> problem, and not correcting it. Right?
> >>>
> >>> BTW, what coolant do you run? I always use 50%/50%.
> >>>
> >>> Mikael
> >>>
> >>> -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
> >>> Fra: Jim Gray [mailto:grayjim at att.net]
> >>> Sendt: 4. april 2013 18:00
> >>> Til: Kirby Schrader; Jack Donahue
> >>> Cc: detomaso at poca.com
> >>> Emne: Re: [DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system
> >>>
> >>> Which is actually where I got mine.  I had seen it in one of Chuck
> >>> Engle's engines.
> >>>
> >>> Jim Gray
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ----- Original Message ----
> >>> From: Kirby Schrader <kirby.schrader at gmail.com>
> >>> To: Jack Donahue <demongusta at me.com>
> >>> Cc: Jim Gray <grayjim at att.net>; detomaso at poca.com
> >>> Sent: Thu, April 4, 2013 9:37:04 AM
> >>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system
> >>>
> >>> The aluminum block off plate is available directly from the
> >>> manufacturer.
> >>>
> >>> http://www.ipsco.org/Pantera%20Parts/Thermostat%20block%20off%20plate
> >>> .htm
> >>>
> >>> FWIW,
> >>> Kirby
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 9:31 AM, Jack Donahue <demongusta at me.com>
> wrote:
> >>>> The electric water pump is sounding better all the time.
> >>>> On Apr 4, 2013, at 6:48 AM, Jim Gray wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> One problem is that there don't seem to be any Cleveland-specific
> >>>>> 160 deg thermostats, only 180-192-195.  Those in the know say we
> >>>>> should always run
> >>> the
> >>>>> 192-195 units and if the system is working correctly, we'll have no
> >>>>> problems.
> >>>>> Yeah, right.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> One change I made late last year was the installation of a new
> >>>>> aluminum plate that replaces the brass one under the thermostat.
> >>>>> This new aluminum plate
> >>> has
> >>>>> only a small 1/4 " hole so that the Cleveland-specific water pump
> >>>>> or
> >>>>thermostat
> >>>>> doesn't have to be used.  Now I can use a 160 deg Windsor or even
> >>>>>Chevy  thermostat.  Also no water pump with the special bypass is
> >>>>>needed.  We'll see if  any of this makes a difference.  The new
> >>>>>aluminum plate came from Dennis  Quella.  The small hole lets any
> >>>>>air out of the block.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Jim Gray
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----
> >>>>> From: John Donahue <demongusta at me.com>
> >>>>> To: Jim Gray <grayjim at att.net>
> >>>>> Cc: "DeTomaso at poca.com" <DeTomaso at poca.com>
> >>>>> Sent: Thu, April 4, 2013 12:50:22 AM
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thank you, Jim. Isn't it frustrating to hear other owners content
> >>>>> with their cooling, when WE are trying to get there.get so all there.
> >>>>> It's like, "what
> >>>>the
> >>>>> heck am I doing wrong? I'm ready to have my Fluidyne flushed, as
> >>>>>suggested by  some here on the List - which I dearly appreciate -
> >>>>>and I only have a couple  thousand miles on it, but I'm willing to
> >>>>>try  anything. I live in so.
> >>>>>California,
> >>>>> and if a traffic jam occurs, and it it's more than a couple minutes
> >>>>>with the air  on, or off, on interstate 5, in August, at 3 pm,  -
> >>>>>I,m screwed. I was in  Austin  for the F-1 race and I-35 reminded me
> >>>>>of
> >>>>>I-5 in SoCal, I'm 65, played  with cars my whole life, and cooling
> >>>>>this Pantera is a challenge. My car IS
> >>>>NOT
> >>>>> half the cars I read about on the List. I have a sweet little white
> >>>>> car
> >>>>without
> >>>>> a million hp and a million pounds of torque - no fuelly, no exotic
> >>>>> exhaust (
> >>> I
> >>>>> believe in luggage once in a while) etc. just a clean motor with a
> >>>>>750  holly.
> >>>>>No
> >>>>> reason to blame the motor for the "hot running". I figure I just
> >>>>>haven't hit the  right button yet. I wish these cool running cars
> >>>>>could be transported here
> >>> and
> >>>>> drive with me. Maybe the hard water here has built up in a couple
> >>>>> years.
> >>> Fine,
> >>>>> I'll have it 'flushed", I'd like some feedback on what people run
> >>>>>for a radiator  cap, and what pressure. I have a radiator pump to
> >>>>>where I could blow all the  liquid out, then hang the car by it's
> >>>>>rear, and fill it. Bleeding the
> >>> radiator
> >>>>> as needed to have pure liquid. That was Kirby's suggestion (filling
> >>>>> it like that, not hanging the car up) - and I'd know for certain
> >>>>> about air in the system. Sometimes I wonder about an air pocket in
> >>>>> the water pump. Now I'm
> >>> down
> >>>>> to "how much pressure", the radiator cap, and thermostat. I've
> >>>>>played around  with thermostats. If it wasn't difficult to change
> >>>>>easily, I'd like to try 160
> >>>>>-
> >>>>> 195 thermostats on different days, just to rule that out. After I
> >>>>>get an oil  temp gauge, I might be surprised how hot the oil is
> >>>>>relative to  the coolant.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Jack
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Apr 3, 2013, at 6:26 AM, Jim Gray <grayjim at att.net> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On the other hand, I have jacked mine sky-high, changed radiators,
> >>>>>> changed fans,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> changed thermostats (repeatedly), changed entine timing and
> >>>>>> *still* have problems with running too warm in the summer.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Jim Gray
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----
> >>>>>> From: Kirby Schrader <kirby.schrader at gmail.com>
> >>>>>> To: "detomaso at POCA.com list" <detomaso at poca.com>
> >>>>>> Sent: Tue, April 2, 2013 7:02:28 PM
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Since owning a Pantera the first time in 1983, I have never jacked
> >>>>>> the car
> >>> up
> >>>>>> in
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> the back to get the air out of the system .
> >>>>>> Never had a problem.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Oh, well .
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> FWIW,
> >>>>>> Kirby
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Apr 2, 2013, at 5:11 PM, michael at michaelshortt.com
> >>>><michaelsavga at gmail.com>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> WTF?  Does anybody think a "cold air" bubbble would sink in hot
> >>>>>>> water?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> There is only one proven way to get the air out the system,
> >>>>>>> jacking up the rear.  It is this very procedure or lack thereof
> >>>>>>> that gave our cars an overheating reputation that we still fight to
> > this day.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> There is no need to reinvent this procedure.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I have a 393 stroker with a Hall 5 core lay forward brass
> >>>>>>> radiator, siliconce hoses and aluminum and stainless hard pipes
> >>>>>>> with a dual electric fan on the back side of the radiator. I run
> >>>>>>> a 1/3 100% antifreeze and 2/3 distiled water with one 16oz bottle
> >>>>>>> of water wetter coolant mix.  I live in Savannah, Georgia where
> >>>>>>> the summer temps are often 95-100 degrees with 90% humidity.
> >>>>>>> After proper filling and bleeding, the only way my car would
> >>>>>>> overheat would be to disconnect the fan and sit stil while reving
> >>>>>>> the engine past 3,000 rpms.  It is all I can do to hit 180 and in
> >>>>>>> more temporate weather 170 degrees.
> >>>>>>> Aside from my coolant mix ( which is the same ratio used for
> >>>>>>> light aircraft )  I would say the single biggest improve came as
> >>>>>>> a result of having the radiator cleaned/boiled.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I would encourage you to have your radiator cleaned, 40 years
> >>>>>>> worth of tap water with city additives like lime, calcium and
> >>>>>>> flourides do produce a white build up which can retrict smooth
> >>>>>>> and speedy waterflow if not block off entire rows.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Then use a proper mix, bleed it as described and witness the
> >>>>>>> difference for yourself.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Michael Shortt
> >>>>>>> On Apr 2, 2013 5:31 PM, "Jack Donahue" <demongusta at me.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Something to think about: Warm air rises, so I would think air
> >>>>>>>> in the system would have a tendency to RISE. With the rear in
> >>>>>>>> the air, and bleeding the radiator, aren't we "pushing" the
> >>>>>>>> water ahead of the air? Why not raise the front? Years ago I had
> >>>>>>>> an "explosion" in the engine bay as I was putting down a city
> > street.
> >>>>>>>> A giant white plume of "white". I thought the engine blew. When
> >>>>>>>> I pulled over, lifted the deck lid and looked, it
> >>> was
> >>>>>>>> devoid of any oil. Must have been steam. I called a mechanic
> >>>>>>>> that had worked on the car after Don Nicholson built and
> >>>>>>>> installed the motor, and
> >>> he
> >>>>>>>> said "it burped". My question was, "how often can I expect this
> >>>>>>>> baby to burp?" never got an answer, and it has not happened since.
> >>>>>>>> Obviously, the pressure exceeded the cap's capacity, and it
> >>>>>>>> worked perfectly. Another
> >>>>>>>> thing: why not use a STANT (or a similar one) cooling system
> >>>>>>>> pump, pump up the system, and then raise the front of the car,
> >>>>>>>> putting the radiator at the high point, and maybe waiting a few
> >>>>>>>> minutes for the bubbles to rise. I guess this will be batted
> >>>>>>>> around forever. I do, however, like John Taphorn's article on
> >>>>>>>> cooling, and I think an oil temp gauge is imperative, even
> >>>>>>>> though I don't have one yet. I have Gary Hall's radiator and
> >>>>>>>> overflow caps, Fluidyne, SS tubes, 1250 sucker-fans, etc.  and
> >>>>>>>> my blood pressure is synchronous with the water temp gauge.
> >>>>>>>> Kirby Schrader told me in an email that the only way his car
> >>>>>>>> will overheat in 100 degree weather (at an
> >>>>>>>> intersection) is to shut of one of the cooling fans.Sounds like
> >>>>>>>> a dream (goal).
> >>>>>>>> On Apr 1, 2013, at 11:43 PM, Tomas Gunnarsson wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Mike,
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Air will not collect like that in the engine as long as there's
> >>>>>>>>> enough water in the system to allow the water pump to push
> >>>>>>>>> water into the block. As long as the pump has water supply to
> >>>>>>>>> fill the block and the thermostat neck high enough to run over
> >>>>>>>>> into the tube going away from the engine no air pocket should
> >>>>>>>>> be present in the engine. There will be two air pockets. One in
> >>>>>>>>> the radiator, the other in the swirl tank if you have one. If
> >>>>>>>>> no swirl tank is present, the rear air pocket will be in the
> >>>>>>>>> thermostat outlet tube if the system is plumbed in a reasonably
> >>>>>>>>> conventional way.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Filling an empty system with the rear of the car jacked up is
> >>>>>>>>> however a way to ensure that the engine contains a certain
> >>>>>>>>> amount of air. Hence my surprise when I over and over hear that
> >>>>>>>>> it's the best way to fill the system.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Tomas
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> <-----Ursprungligt Meddelande----->
> >>>>>>>>> From: MikeLDrew at aol.com [MikeLDrew at aol.com]
> >>>>>>>>> Sent: 2/4/2013 1:34:54 AM
> >>>>>>>>> To: guson at home.se
> >>>>>>>>> Cc: detomaso at poca.com
> >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> In a message dated 4/1/13 13 39 2, guson at home.se writes:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>      I beg to differ. As soon as you start driving the car it
> >>>>>>>>>will  see G-forces much greater than those induced by jacking or
> >>>>>>>>>parking on a  slope. There is no possibility that air would be
> >>>>>>>>>trapped in the straight  under car tubes after that.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> No.  Instead, the air that WAS trapped in the pipes before
> >>>>>>>>>>>> you
> >>>>>>>>> started driving, will now be trapped in your engine!  And
> >>>>>>>>> you're driving!
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> And overheating.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> The point of the exercise is to purge the system of air (as
> >>>>>>>>> much as
> >>>>>>>>> possible) *before* you start driving it.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> There was a significant incident that happened many years ago
> >>>>>>>>> to a new Pantera owner here in PCNC land, named Walter Villere.
> >>>>>>>>> He bought his Pantera from a police auction, a rather scruffy
> >>>>>>>>> but solid Euro GTS, and only paid $13K or something like that.
> >>>>>>>>> One side was beat up because it had been parked in a fenced lot
> >>>>>>>>> right against the fence, and the wind had whipped the fence and
> >>>>>>>>> battered the side of the car.  But the damage was all rather
> >>>>>>>>> trivial.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Walter knew a lot about cars and nothing about Panteras.  First
> >>>>>>>>> thing he did when he got it home was to change all the
> >>>>>>>>> fluids--water and oil.  He drained all the coolant, then just
> >>>>>>>>> filled it up and topped it off until the tank was full, on
> >>>>>>>>> level ground.  He then closed the cap, and took off across the
> >>>>>>>>> Richmond bridge, which started right outside his office.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Walter was/is a maniac.  Great guy, but a maniac.  He wanted to
> >>>>>>>>> see how fast it would go, and the bridge is a great place
> >>>>>>>>> because there's no place for cops to hide.  Traffic was light
> >>>>>>>>> so he just ran it up to redline in 5th gear.  Having a great
> >>>>>>>>> time, eyes on the road of course, so he failed to notice that
> >>>>>>>>> because he hadn't properly filled the cooling system, the temp
> > gauge was pegged.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> BOOM!!!!!!  The engine let go like Krakatoa!
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Only AFTER that, and a new engine from Hall Pantera, did he
> >>>>>>>>> learn the importance of the proper filling/bleeding procedure....
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I agree that you want to bleed the radiator and top up at the
> >>>>>>>>> rear filler but the jacking is a waste of time.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> It doesn't cost anything, doesn't hurt anything, and not
> >>>>>>>>>>>> doing it has
> >>>>>>>>> led to at least minor overheating problems in the past.  And
> >>>>>>>>> the manual directs you to do it.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> So why WOULDN'T you do it?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Mike
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> <P><p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2"
>
> >>>>>>>>style="font-size:13.5px">____________________________________________
> > ___________________<BR>Annons:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>:
> >>>>>>>> :
> >>>>>>>> :
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> >>>>>>>>- Gratis,  enkelt och s kert!</a></font>
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